Oh look, archetype clarifications

[Ravingdork]

Never saw it till just now, but apparently there is a whole host of clarifications about archetypes in the Advanced Class Guide. Woot!

Anyways, I thought you should be made aware of it too (if you weren't already).

The primary way that archetypes modify base classes is by replacing class features. When a player selects a class for his character, he could choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original description, but he could also choose to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces or alters a specific class feature from its base class. For example, the strangler archetype's neckbreaker class feature replaces the awesome blow and improved awesome blow features of the standard brawler class. Class features that are not specifically replaced function as described in the original version of the class.

When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when a character reaches the appropriate level, unless otherwise noted. A character with an alternate class feature due to an archetype doesn't count as having the class feature that was replaced for purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.

On the other hand, any alternate class features listed as altering an existing class feature otherwise works as that original class feature, and is considered to be that class feature for purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites, even if that feature is renamed to fit a new theme. For example, a class feature that alters the bard's bardic performance still counts a bardic performance for any prerequisite that requires that ability.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature. For example, a warpriest could not be both a champion of fate and a disenchanter, because both archetypes replace the channel energy class feature with something else.

If an archetype replaces a class feature that's part of a series of improvements or additions to the base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6 at 5th level—it improves to +2d6 just as if she finally gained the increase for 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level in which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.

If an archetype replaces a class feature that has a series of improvements, but it does not list one individual improvement, that class feature replaces the entire class feature and all of its improvements. For example, if a class feature says that it replaces trap sense without mentioning a specific bonus, it replaces all of trap sense.

[wraithstrike]

What is new here that was not clear before?<---Serious question.

[Gisher]

Thanks! I never caught this either. I skimmed it and assumed it was just a summary of previous rulings. This part is very helpful.

Ravingdork wrote:

On the other hand, any alternate class features listed as altering an existing class feature otherwise works as that original class feature, and is considered to be that class feature for purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites, even if that feature is renamed to fit a new theme. For example, a class feature that alters the bard's bardic performance still counts a bardic performance for any prerequisite that requires that ability.

[Scythia]

The fifth paragraph was helpful for me. I was uncertain what happened when only one instance of a multi rank ability was called out as being replaced.

I still wonder what happens when a later ability improves a lower level one that's replaced, like the sniper style slayer replacing tracking, but still getting swift tracking.

[Gaberlunzie]

While this is how we've always run it, it's good to have it in plain english, black on white.

[Secret Wizard]

light azure on white but yeah.

sadly, this is a nerf to Fighters, because it seems to me that as worded, archetypes that keep only Weapon Training I and/or II get less scaling and not just less weapon groups.

[Gaberlunzie]

Yeah, but that's hardly new is it?

[Secret Wizard]

I had never run my games like that, I assumed the WT III and IV meant just losing the weapon groups, but the scaling of the ability remained.

[Eltacolibre]

Well that opens up a lot of possibilities. Always assumed that someone losing sneak attack or bardic performance, wouldn't qualify for some prestige classes or feats but I was wrong.

[Cap. Darling]

Eltacolibre wrote:

Well that opens up a lot of possibilities. Always assumed that someone losing sneak attack or bardic performance, wouldn't qualify for some prestige classes or feats but I was wrong.

If they loose it. It is still lost. It it alter it. It is still there. No?

[wraithstrike]

There is an FAQ that gives more detail on when a new ability still counts as the old one.

[Ravingdork]

Happy to be of help. That's kind of why I posted it, even though it is old news to some.

[Fabius Maximus]

Quote:

If an archetype replaces a class feature that has a series of improvements, but it does not list one individual improvement, that class feature replaces the entire class feature and all of its improvements. For example, if a class feature says that it replaces trap sense without mentioning a specific bonus, it replaces all of trap sense.

Ironskin Monk wrote:

Tough as Nails (Ex)

At 6th level, an ironskin monk gains DR 1/—. Subtract 1 point from the damage the ironskin monk takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. This damage reduction increases by 1 point at 9th level and every 3 levels thereafter. Damage Reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

This ability replaces fast movement and slow fall.

At level 6, the Ironskin Monk already has Slow Fall (20 ft) and Fast Movement (10 ft.). Does he never get them or does he stop the progression at that level?

[Secret Wizard]

replaces altogether.

Things that replace increments specifically state so.

[Arcanic Drake]

Secret Wizard wrote:

replaces altogether.

Things that replace increments specifically state so.

Yep. A word of advice: Read the whole archetype before applying it. If it says it replaces something at a level that is after it is gained, it replaces it for all levels, not just when the new ability is gained.

Of course there still is the distinction of ability tiers like sneak attack and armor training, so pay attention to what it replaces. You might still get some benefit from it.