General Discussion: Spells and Magic


Rules Discussion

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I agree with lemmy. The all-or-nothing nature of the emotion component is too harsh. Allowing a concentration check or forcing the caster to, perhaps, increase the casting time by one step to get in the right emotional state would be better. As it stands, the emotion part is thematic but too crippling.


Seriously, though, will NPCs who probably have little experience with Psychic magic be able to tell that you're casting a spell? Not even talking about combat and provoking here. Talking about out of combat?


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I am really concerned about the spell "psychic crush". It seems... like a bit too much to me. I'm not fond of "save or DIE" spells, and this is pretty much straight up save or die. It's particularly harmfull to tanky types, who generally have low will saves & are the ones losing HP. Unless it is changed notably, I wont be allowing it in my games...

Still, I cant help but think, is there some sort of safeguard I'm missing?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:

Just to double-check: there's nothing preventing the casting of psychic spells in fullplate, is there?

Just keep in mind one workd if you're going to wear full plate and nuke your strength at the same time.....

Encumbrance.

Actually you also might want to keep in mind armor check penalties for nonproficient users.


williamoak wrote:

I am really concerned about the spell "psychic crush". It seems... like a bit too much to me. I'm not fond of "save or DIE" spells, and this is pretty much straight up save or die. It's particularly harmfull to tanky types, who generally have low will saves & are the ones losing HP. Unless it is changed notably, I wont be allowing it in my games...

Still, I cant help but think, is there some sort of safeguard I'm missing?

Tons. Resistance, Iron Will, Greater Iron Will, cloak of resistance, a bard's saving finale, a shirt reroll, a folio reroll, GM stars reroll...

And things from this playtest! Such as Mental Placidity, Gift of Will, Intellect Fortress, Tower of Iron Will, and Thought Shield.

Also, Breath of Life, Channeled Revival, Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Bear's Endurance, focus damage on Psychics...

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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Thanks everyone for the feedback. The components for these spells is something that we are still tinkering with. I am of the mind that the emotion component restrictions are a bit harsh, but I think we will be looking for play test feedback to help us confirm.

That is all for now.. carry on.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Im going to try to get some playtest feedback this weekend with my old online group.


How does Magical Lineage interact with undercastable spells? Does it apply to the whole chain?


I think it would have to still only apply to a single spell, e.g. Ego Whip I not Ego Whip II or higher, as they are separate spells. It would still affect Ego Whip I when you undercast it from Ego Whip II, but the trait would have no effect on Ego Whip II.

Paizo Employee

I really like the E and T components, although the "focusing as a move action" seems like an unnecessary complication.

I'm not sure about the shaken effect in play, but I'm of the mind it's net positive. Here's my reasoning:

As a GM, I can always shut down all the players. If I'm throwing a bunch of intimidating NPCs all the time to shut down the psychic, it's just me being a jerk. Everyone once in a while it's just flavor for the encounter, like golems or swarms.

However, it gives a totally sweet way for martial and magical PCs alike to interact with psychic NPCs. Adding that weight to Intimidate (and emotion spells) gives a whole new texture to those abilities in campaigns with psychic enemies.

So, as a GM, I'd really look forward to using psychic NPCs and have them shot down this way. Interactions like that add a ton of tactical depth for basically no extra bookkeeping.

Cheers!
Landon


I disagree because it is such an all or nothing way of shutting down NPCs or PCs. I believe that it shouldn't be so easy to shut down the psychic users, especially compared to arcane and divine casters. The idea behind it is good, but the execution I feel is too extreme. Maybe there should be a negative, like increased casting time, when you are under the effects of emotional spells and effects like Shaken.

I just don't want to run a game and have all of my psychic casters shut down because of intimidate.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This thread is for general discussion of the Spells and Magic system, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.

As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.

Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest!

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Jason, my group and I are retooling your psychic attack and defense modes to be much better. Here's the suggestion for psychic crush.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, but the effect can make even a 20th level fight, almost a one-hit kill. I think I have something that might work in it's place.

Your will abruptly and brutally crushes the mental essence of any one creature, debilitating its acumen. The target is reduced to 0 hit points by NONLETHAL damage, resulting in being immediately staggered. Trat any further damage(lethal or non) as normal. This damage persists for a number of rounds, equal to the caster's favored attribute modifier, minimum one round. Each round, the target gets to make a will save. If it succeeds, or survives the duration, it shrugs off the damage and is immediately restored to it's normal hitpoint total. if the target is killed by nonlethal damage, it will awaken when the duration of the spell expires. If the target is killed by LETHAL damage however, it is truly dead. ((IGNORE all taht nonsense about taking damage on a failed save))

this gives the spell a bit of it's bite, while making it a bit of a wildcard. It CAN drop the target if they fail a will save, or it can fizzle. It could bring a Baddie down enough to run, but the group has to capitalize on the moment, or it will just have a pissed off enemy in a few rounds.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Designer

@Emotion components, you could carry around a cheap 50 gp potion of remove fear or rely on getaway spells like dimension door to remaneuver. Remember, if it would have a somatic component, it has an emotion component, so you can cast those getaway no-somatic spells to reposition for better tactical position. The good thing that way is that most forms of easy and reliable access to shaken work in a 30 foot range, so if you get farther than that, you're less likely to be in trouble.


Odraude wrote:

I disagree because it is such an all or nothing way of shutting down NPCs or PCs. I believe that it shouldn't be so easy to shut down the psychic users, especially compared to arcane and divine casters. The idea behind it is good, but the execution I feel is too extreme. Maybe there should be a negative, like increased casting time, when you are under the effects of emotional spells and effects like Shaken.

I just don't want to run a game and have all of my psychic casters shut down because of intimidate.

Fear is a good blocker. It does bring your vibration down. If you want to turn this around, you can make Fear an emotion component. I.e. the Sinestro Corps.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
@Emotion components, you could carry around a cheap 50 gp potion of remove fear or rely on getaway spells like dimension door to remaneuver. Remember, if it would have a somatic component, it has an emotion component, so you can cast those getaway no-somatic spells to reposition for better tactical position. The good thing that way is that most forms of easy and reliable access to shaken work in a 30 foot range, so if you get farther than that, you're less likely to be in trouble.

I don't really like the idea of being required to have remove fear on you just so you don't get shut down by being shaken.

Like I said, the idea that emotional status effects are detrimental to psychics are fine. But I think shutting down the majority of their spells because they are only shaken is a very harsh punishment. I like giving PCs (and NPCs) a way to try and overcome issues like this and this style of game design really doesn't sit well with me.

I'm not saying you should remove this, but I really honestly think it could be toned down a little bit. If I can playtest this on the weekend, I'll try to.

Silver Crusade

Like many of the other posters, I feel the emotion component is a bit extreme, but for higher "level" emotion effects (like frightened as opposed to shaken), it makes sense to not be able to use emotional components. But for the lower end ones like shaken (and I assume sickened?) it may be better to have either the "compose yourself" tax or instead have a concentration check or caster level penalty or what have you. I'm going to be rolling up my first psychic caster soon, so more feedback to follow :-)

On a more thematic note, how would psychic spells interact with the mana wastes? Would a spiritualist be able to manifest his spirit in Alkenstar? Would a Kineticist be able to blast things with his elements?


Mark Seifter wrote:
@Emotion components, you could carry around a cheap 50 gp potion of remove fear or rely on getaway spells like dimension door to remaneuver. Remember, if it would have a somatic component, it has an emotion component, so you can cast those getaway no-somatic spells to reposition for better tactical position. The good thing that way is that most forms of easy and reliable access to shaken work in a 30 foot range, so if you get farther than that, you're less likely to be in trouble.

That's a lot of investment, effort and actions just to avoid being neutralized/crippled by such a simple and common status (like Shaken)... And while you're spending resources and actions to do that, the enemy can use a standard, swift or even free action to make you Shaken again (and probably also hit you) without spending any resource. Shaken is specially problematic because there are many abilities that cause the condition with no save or on even on a successful save (many spells make the target Shaken on a successful save). By mid levels it's also really easy to succeed on Intimidate checks.

It's really weird for a character to have to treat the Shaken condition as if it were almost as bad as Frightened.

Besides, if there is one thing the game doesn't need, is the addition of even more all-or-nothing mechanics (specially when it's so easy to be forced into the "nothing" half of the equation).

Designer

Since all psychic casters are spontaneous, you can use a Logical Spell metamagic and pull a slot of 1 level higher when this comes up. Most of the people who can make you take free action shaken are melee martial characters (Cornugon Smash, Enforcer, etc), who don't otherwise have great options for messing up a psychic caster like they do with somatic casters.


I love the emotion components. It's a fresh rethinking of vancian magic.

Interesting exposition showing the contrasts between thought components and emotion components. Whoever thought of this and wrote this ...thank you.

Makes the Intimidate skill more valuable, a tactical defense against psychic magic.


Messing up psychic mages is fine, but we just think that in it's current iteration, it's too harsh. Arcane and divine casters don't have this same all-or-nothing issue when it comes to concentration checks. Only things I can think of are golems (which is much more rare than the Shaken condition) and becoming an ex-divine caster (which is still preventable by the PC).

I think it's fine to have forced emotions screw with the psychic mage. But being crippled by one of the most common effects in the game is too much. It's just weird to be shaken and have your only options be "run, drink potion, or use metamagiced spell that's essentially a feat tax". It's only the Shaken condition after all. I could see it forcing a concentration check, or extending the casting time, or something less harsh than "You can't cast the majority of your spells."


Odraude wrote:

Messing up psychic mages is fine, but we just think that in it's current iteration, it's too harsh. Arcane and divine casters don't have this same all-or-nothing issue when it comes to concentration checks. Only things I can think of are golems (which is much more rare than the Shaken condition) and becoming an ex-divine caster (which is still preventable by the PC).

I think it's fine to have forced emotions screw with the psychic mage. But being crippled by one of the most common effects in the game is too much. It's just weird to be shaken and have your only options be "run, drink potion, or use metamagiced spell that's essentially a feat tax". It's only the Shaken condition after all. I could see it forcing a concentration check, or extending the casting time, or something less harsh than "You can't cast the majority of your spells."

I agree, I think it is a valid concern.

Pathfinder has gradually moved away from D&D 3.5's save or die mechanics. And psychic magic should be no different.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Since all psychic casters are spontaneous, you can use a Logical Spell metamagic and pull a slot of 1 level higher when this comes up. Most of the people who can make you take free action shaken are melee martial characters (Cornugon Smash, Enforcer, etc), who don't otherwise have great options for messing up a psychic caster like they do with somatic casters.

I don't have any problem with martials being able to mess with casters... I just think the current version is somewhat excessive. Actually, the thought/emotion thing is flavorful, but I don't think they are very good, mechanics wise... They are either too difficult to stop (thought) or too easily neutralized (emotion).

Requiring a feat tax (and increased casting time. And higher spell slot.) just to not be royally screwed by a minor condition will just annoy players. Balancing casters by stopping them from casting is not a fun or interesting, it's just boring for the player using the caster. A much better idea is to make sure the spells themselves are balanced.

It's a flavorful mechanic, but if it stays as it is, I'll just ignore it and use verbal/somatic components. That way, at least martials will be able to interrupt my casting without the caster having the risk of being easily shut down by a commoner with ranks Intimidate.


Is the Mind Thrust series of spells too weak? 1d6+CL and without the high scaling effects and area of effect like the Burning Hands spell.

Possibly damage and an extra effect like dazzle or shaken condition.

Dark Archive

There are a bevy of ways to be immune or resistant to fear in Pathfinder, I actually don't find the emotion component to be too bad.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Something I might have missed, and it's not fully spelled out in the document from what I can tell...

Are all of the Psychic spells listed in the book available to ALL of the psychic spellcasting classes? Are they considered to be on the spell lists of all psychic casters? Since they each just say psychic X for their level, I assume so, but then there's the strangeness of a Medium not having a spell list, and none of the current spirits he can channel add those psychic spells to the list (though I could imagine some that would in the final book).

Related question: Does a psychic spellcaster who only has access to level 4 or 6 spells at maximum (I'm looking at you, Medium) treat higher-level versions of those psychic spells as if they're on his list? In other words, could a Mesmerist at level 20 cast ego whip V (a psychic 7 spell) from a scroll, assuming that ego whip IV is already on his spell list?

Another related question: will there be any way for a kineticist to gain access to a few of these spells? Perhaps a feat that would treat him as having them on his spell list, so that scrolls and wands (or their psychic equivalent, if it's different) can be used with no UMD check?


I'm pretty sure Psychic is referring to the actual class, the Psychic.

That's... confusing. It'd be like if the wizard class was called the Magic, or the Arcane. I suddenly understand the purpose of the name Psion.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Will there be any combat buff spells for any of the classes, for martial builds?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Oh. Wow, didn't even think of that. Yeah... probably only available to the Psychic class....


Mark Seifter wrote:
Since all psychic casters are spontaneous, you can use a Logical Spell metamagic and pull a slot of 1 level higher when this comes up. Most of the people who can make you take free action shaken are melee martial characters (Cornugon Smash, Enforcer, etc), who don't otherwise have great options for messing up a psychic caster like they do with somatic casters.

What seems tricky to me about that is how the drawbacks of thought and emotion components might combine to make things more difficult than they should. Say you're shaken by a demoralize attempt and are forced to cast a Logical Spell. It takes a full-round action cast, correct? Meaning if you're in a situation where you need to make a concentration check (such as to cast defensively), taking a move action to center yourself (and avoid the +10 DC) means you wouldn't finish casting until your next turn, which in turn might expose you to more concentration checks from taking damage.

Though I won't insist it needs to be changed without playtesting it first. Just an observation.


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I have 2 questions.

1. The E cost of spells only mentions fear. But do other emotions (say bard song inspire courage with a morale bonus)make you unable to cast?

2. If I take spell specialization in mind thrust 1, and then at level 4 psychic I take mindthrust 2 (switching out mindthrust 1 for a different spell) will my spell specialization now apply to mindthrust 2?


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What if emotion based debuffs affected your caster level? Shaken would drop your caster level by two, frightened would make casting impossible without meta magic.


Helcack wrote:
There are a bevy of ways to be immune or resistant to fear in Pathfinder, I actually don't find the emotion component to be too bad.

Immunity to fear doesn't make you immune to being demoralized.

Designer

The shaken condition is a state of fear. You can't inflict it on a target that is immune to fear.


I notice that there seems to be versions 1 through V for all the psychic spells. I'd like to suggest that it might save space and simplify things to just have a single version of each spell with varying effects depending on which spell slot the spell is prepared in.


Mark Seifter wrote:
The shaken condition is a state of fear. You can't inflict it on a target that is immune to fear.

Ah, true! I'm mixing it up with a different rule... The "Ice Elementals can die of cold" thing, because weather conditions are not affected by energy resistance.

Still... Fear immunity is not nearly as common (or cheap) as effects that make someone shaken. The cheapest item I can think of that gives the character immunity to fear is the Ring of the Sublime, which is indeed really cheap, but it does spend a ring slot.


I like the Psychic class and I really want it to be as popular as the Kineticist. A sign of great classes is that players find it hard to decide which class to take.

Unique Style and Psychic Spells:

If a selection of Psychic spells were fast to manifest, the Psychic Class would have it's own niche in the Pathfinder game.

Using swift actions and immediate actions

EGO WHIP I (modified)

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level
psychic 3

Casting Time 1 swift action

Components E

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one creature

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw Will half; Spell Resistance yes

You can use your psychic power to overwhelm the target’s ego,
leaving it feeling hopeless and unsure of itself. This attack deals
1d4 points of hit point damage, and the target is staggered for 1
round. A Will save halves the damage and negates the staggered
effect.

Influence from Stephen King's Firestarter:

Andy's 'push' power has the advantage of speed and surprise and it would be great if the Psychic class would allow such a power to be recreated in the Pathfinder game.

Liberty's Edge

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I vote for replacing all spells with spell-like abilities, similar to kineticist wild talents or witch hexes. It seems the easiest way to make psychic classes different from spellcasting classes. Magic without spellcasting.

I apologize if you read all threads and keep seeing me pop up with this.

Gracias.


That's honestly too big of a change for the playtest and would make the kineticist less unique in their abilities. The psychic classes were stated in the beginning to be Vancian casters and replacing them completely would be way too much work that isn't worth it honestly. The Kineticist is the exception to the vancian rule that makes it unique. That said, every class sans the Psychic all have special abilities like the Hexes that help make them unique.

Silver Crusade

Disclaimer: I am very unenthusiastic about the whole occult concept, but so far the mechanical implementation has been interesting.

I really don't see the advantage in all those new components, the expensive material bit seems like a nice advantage,especially at the lower levels.

The thought component seems reasonable, but it eats move actions (and since these are all spontaneous casters, this clashes with metamagic feats) and makes those casters quite vulnerable to damage (from an acid arrow or similar effects), but yeah seems like a decent trade off for the ability to wear armor.

The emotional component seems really complicated to me, and I don't see why it has to be.

Since these rules are going to be PFS legal, it opens some questions like:

What knowledge is used on occult characters/monster? What is the DC to understand the basic nature of their spellcasting (like the weaknesses of their components)?
How can players/monsters notice, that an occult character is casting a spell, they don't wave their hands around, they don't start mumbling words, they just just concentrate and go to their happy place.
The wording on material components is a bit unclear, as written it only applies to expensive material components, not the cheap stuff, that doesn't seem intended.

Oh and you can't just gag and bind their hands to an occult character, you have to kill, poison or knock them senseless.


I love the emotion/thought components, wish divine casters got a faith spell component instead of somatic. Though I do agree that there should be a concentration check or spell failure check when you are under a fear effect.

I do like the rules for undercasting.

Scarab Sages

Krillnar wrote:

I vote for replacing all spells with spell-like abilities, similar to kineticist wild talents or witch hexes. It seems the easiest way to make psychic classes different from spellcasting classes. Magic without spellcasting.

I apologize if you read all threads and keep seeing me pop up with this.

Gracias.

You would remove the classes ability to access the wide range of existing abilities, feats and items that can be applied to spells but not SLA's.


I'm a little confused as to why Mind Thrust would be divination. That said, any chance Wizards could get something similar? I know a few concepts that would LOVE a damaging divination spell.


It has been a long time coming to get a damage dealing divination spell.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Androids can either take the ability to gain emotions or take the Logical Spell feat and pay for metamagic like the NPC in Shattered Star Book 5 who has still spell on all her spells. You can't provide an emotion component if you are emotionless.

What is this Logical Spell feat I keep seeing mentioned? Because I'm not finding it anywhere.


Artanthos wrote:
Krillnar wrote:

I vote for replacing all spells with spell-like abilities, similar to kineticist wild talents or witch hexes. It seems the easiest way to make psychic classes different from spellcasting classes. Magic without spellcasting.

I apologize if you read all threads and keep seeing me pop up with this.

Gracias.

You would remove the classes ability to access the wide range of existing abilities, feats and items that can be applied to spells but not SLA's.

I agree with Krillnar on replacing "spell slot" casting with SLAs (or something similar).

As for accessing abilities/feats/etc, maybe a special "Psychic caster only" rule regarding SLAs?
eg. Psychic SLA's count at spells for the purposes of using magic items, prerequisites and crafting. Metamagic or similar effects that would increase the spell slot level used instead increase the cast time by 1 round per added spell level.

That's just something off the top of my head just then so there's sure to be some problems with it. My point is that changing to something other than vancian spell slots is doable.

Or maybe only some classes use SLAs and others use vancian? The spiritualist, to me, seems a class that would work better with SLAs instead of spells.

Liberty's Edge

Spell-like abilities reference the spells they function as, so the "rules" of spells are still used.

Scarab Sages

Krillnar wrote:
Spell-like abilities reference the spells they function as, so the "rules" of spells are still used.

You cannot modify an SLA with a metamagic feat.

Pearls of Power, or the psychic equivalent, do not function for SLA's

SLA's cannot be used for spell-trigger items.

Etc.


It's pretty ambiguous whether psychic spells use costless material components or not. Nothing explicitly states that they don't, but the statement that spells retain focus components seems fairly out of place if they do.I think this should be clarified in the final document.

While on the subject, assuming that they still do use material components, I don't think they should. It fits the image of a psion being capable of doing great things with naught but his mind. It would also seem strange that a psychic spellcaster, naked but for an expensive wedding band, would be able to cast raise dead but not suggestion, simply because a large diamond is more costly than a honeycomb.


I hate the "undercast" mechanic. It's totally different for all other casters. They are stuck learning multiple versions of Summon Monster for example. Psychic spells should be under the same restrictions.


I'm not clear on whether or not Psychic Crush X affects things normally immune to mind-affecting magic like the undead. The way it is written, it seems like it would affect intelligent undead like vampires.

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