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So, I've been reading Inner Sea Gods, which you should totally get if you haven't, and I've been overflowing with build ideas based on the three prestige classes therein, all of which are built around the Deific Obedience feat. I thought I'd make a thread where I shared some, and other people could add their own.
The Evangelist gives some skill-focused abilities, a very nice capstone, and, most significantly, advances ALL the class abilities from one class you had before you took it (except for the first level of Evangelist)!
The Exalted is a full-divine casting prestige class with an unfortunate feat tax, but gives some very cool things, including an additional domain.
The Sentinel is a weapon-focused class which makes you very good at using your deity's favored weapon. Essentially it gains a faster version of Weapon Training, but only applies to the one weapon, and the class grants many other abilities besides.
Walter's Guide to Deific Obediences gives further information, as well as some reviews (though I disagree with him at some points).
I'm just going to lay out my thoughts on Two Deities for now, and see if there's interest in this. To see the specifics of Deific Obedience powers, follow the links for the respective deity.
First,
Erastil's Deific Obedience involves placing seeds each day, either planting them when possible, or arranging them symbolically. Not too arduous, but you'll have to carry a supply with you. The base benefit is pretty minor, though: +4 sacred bonus to Survival checks.
The second and third evangelist boons for Erastil are potentially VERY good. The second boon, Twin Fang, at Evangelist 6, lets you create a duplicate of your animal companion once per day, which lasts for a number of rounds equal to your hit die (if you don't have an animal companion, it just gives you SNA V 1/day). The third boon, Faithful Archer, at Evangelist 9, allows an archer to add their wisdom bonus on attack and damage rolls within 30 feet when using a longbow.
Zen Archer 8 / Evangelist 10
Zen Archer 5 > Evangelist 10 > Zen Archer 8
This build explains itself, I think; you're here mainly for that third Evangelist boon. With your Zen Archer abilities, you get twice your wisdom bonus on attack rolls within 30 feet, and your wisdom bonus to damage.
Ranger (Archery Combat Style) 6 / Evangelist 10
Ranger 5 > Evangelist 10 > Ranger 6
OR
Ranger 6 > Evangelist 10 (if you don't want to wait an extra level for an iterative attack and 6th level combat feat)
While this combo doesn't benefit AS much from Faithful Archer as the Zen Archer does, it does benefit much more from the Twin Fang boon. The Boon Companion feat is essential, and will exactly compensate to keep your animal companion at your full character level with this build.
The second sentinel boon is nice, increasing the armor bonus of any armor made from animal hide (leather, studded leather, hide, etc.) by 2, and giving you the Scent ability. This is very good for the dex based ranger, who can stick to MW studded leather until he can afford Celestial Armor. The other boons are meh, but the main benefit is from the sentinel class itself.
Ranger 6 / Sentinel 10
While you give up on Ranger benefits past level 6, you get a total of +4 attack +4 damage with longbows, 2 bonus combat feats (and you qualify for fighter feats, so Weapon Specialization). At Sentinel 5 your longbow is treated as though it had the 'holy' property! And the other cool Sentinel powers besides. Overall, a much stronger archer than the straight ranger, though you lose out on special ranger abilities past 6th level, and your animal companion will stop advancing. Thus, consider an archetype with better powers early on; I like Trapper, Guide, Freebooter.
If a DM allows the Evangelist Aligned Class ability to apply to prestige classes (and there isn't anything indicating it doesn't), then Ranger 6 / Sentinel 1 / Evangelist 10 has the potential for even better hijinks, getting both sets of boons.
Generally not worth it. The 1st and 2nd Exalted Boons are very 'meh'. The 3rd one is nice, but not amazing. But the real reason you don't want to do this is that the best domain granted by Erastil is the Animal Domain, for the animal companion. Unless your DM allows Exalted levels to stack with Cleric levels for determining Domain powers (which makes sense thematically, but it doesn't say that they do stack), then you don't want to be losing out on those animal companion levels, especially when you consider the feat tax involved in Exalted.
Irori's Deific Obedience requires an hour each day split between: contemplating the universe, practicing your martial arts, and reading something you've never read before. It's the last that could be a stickler, if your DM likes to steal your things. In a pinch you can probably wheedle the wizard into letting you struggle through one page of his spellbook (unless you are the wizard).
That being said, the benefit it grants is amazing: a +4 sacred bonus to all Knowledge checks. All of them. That's 10 out of 10 Knowledge skills.
The second evangelist boon is really only great for those built around unarmed strikes. The third evangelist boon gives some nice SLAs that are generally useful to any character, especially the Restoration which, being a SLA, has no material component.
Wizard 6 / Evangelist 10
Consider an elf with this build, who grabs the Breath of Experience feat (+2 to all Knowledge and Profession feats, can do them untrained). You are int focused, so between that +2, the +4 sacred bonus to all knowledge checks, you can put a single rank into each knowledge check and coast quite a while before you need to pump them at all (1 rank gets you a bonus of 10+INT). Second, while you are losing a level of wizard casting (and yes, that does hurt), you are gaining: better hp, much better skills, extra defense (+2 dodge), the boons, the nice capstone which gives you +4 INT several times a day (i.e. +2 spell DC), and the Multitude of Talents. Depending on what your school of specialization is, the Scroll Scholar archetype is worth considering.
If in a small party (3 or 4 players), where you can't afford to specialize quite as much, I would even consider doing: Monk (Zen Archer) 1 > Wizard 4 > Evangelist 10 > Wizard 6. This gives you better defense (you're not wearing armor anyway), saves, plus proficiency in the longbow (trade out your Elven Weapon Familiarity for +2 to concentration checks), the Precise Shot feat, and Flurry of Bows, so you have something useful to do when you run out of spells. Just be certain to grab the Magical Knack trait in this case, so that your caster level stays full.
The second Exalted boon lets you cast healing spells at range 3 times per day, so you can already see that this will synergize well with a healer. The third Exalted boon lets you float around all the time, because you're too good for the ground. That's serious class, right there.
For race, since you're probably going to be wisdom based, Human is a good option, and grab the alternate human feature that replaces the 1st level bonus feat with three Skill Focus feats at levels 1, 8 and 16. This will let you knock out the feat-tax for Exalted right off the bat, and give you more feats later on besides.
There are actually some really neat things you can do here. One example:
Cleric (Separatist) 6 / Exalted 10
You definitely want one of your domains to be Healing. You'll get the Empowered Healing from your domain at Cleric 6, and this synergizes VERY nicely with the second Exalted boon (lets you cast healing spells at range 3 times per day.)
For the second domain, pick any domain besides Chaos, but note that your effective cleric level will only ever be 4 for that domain. Travel is always a good option.
At Exalted 5, pick the Knowledge domain. In addition to getting you all the Knowledge skills as class skills, this is going to let you have true seeing 1/day as a SLA, hence without a material component. Alternately, pick the Strength domain to get stoneskin as a SLA (again, no material component. Lots of other goodies too.
OR
You can just do:
Cleric 6 / Exalted 10
Pick the Healing and Knowledge domains straight from the bat (which is a good choice if they party needs to rely on you for most knowledge checks), and take the Strength domain later in the Exalted PrC.
Add in the Scroll Scholar archetype if desired, for even more knowledgeness.
The first boon, letting you cast haste 1/day, is nice, not amazing. The second boon is not a good use of a standard action in combat (though could be useful if your DM lets you use it right before combat, if you sneak up on your foe). The third one is solid, netting you a +4 on saves versus a large variety of negative conditions.
This build is trickier. A Sentinel of Irori is going to get bonuses to Unarmed Strikes, but if you're a monk that means that you'll lose out on the higher level monk abilities.
I think Monk (Sohei, Qinggong) 8 / Sentinel 10 is probably the best bet (Monk 6 > Sentinel 3 > Monk 8 (extra flurry attack) > Sentinel 10). Sohei lets you flurry in light armor, so you keep wisdom at 10 or 12 or so for this build (don't want to completely dump it, because of ki). Sohei 6 will get you Weapon Training in your unarmed strikes. Besides the +1 attack and damage, this will let you benefit from the Gloves of Dueling later on. You trade out Stunning Fist for a bonus to initiative and the ability to always act in the surprise round; a good trade in the long run, since your Stunning Fist won't progress, and you won't have a high wisdom anyway.
Sohei has the downside, though, that your unarmed strike base damage does not increase, so you can't get unarmed damage boosts from Monk's Robes and the like. Luckily, you'll be getting plenty of direct damage boosts: +5 to hit and damage between the Sohei and the Sentinel, and Sentinel makes your fists 'axiomatic', and you can easily grab Weapon Specialization as one of your Sentinel bonus feats. Combined with the fact that you can flurry, it's not a bad deal (especially because you hit a LOT more reliably than a normal monk doing FoB, or with single attacks).
Given your +4 sacred bonus, you can be THE Knowledge (religion) guy for the group, even if you dump intelligence.
Overall, while I think this build is very solid, it's not what I would call 'amazing'. It's a significantly better fist-pounder than a straight monk, but losing out on a lot of neat monk abilities.
Please comment, and add your own ideas for builds (from these gods or others!) If there is interest, I'll gradually add some other build ideas for other gods.
Interesting; I'm fairly sure, though, that Mystic Theurge doesn't have levels beyond 10th, so you can't increase the class abilities beyond that with Evangelist.
Have you found a DM that would allow that, out of curiosity? And using the SLA trick to get into Mystic Theurge early? I shot down a player trying to do that myself, so I'm curious of other DMs have allowed it.
im just gunna leave the reminder here that there is a trait that makes heavy shields into light weapons, dual wield those heavy spiked shields all day and give zero fraks. slightly below average dmg but abouve average defence, totally worth to me
A little surprised that Bards weren't mentioned in the Irori builds. Irori's obedience + Breadth of Experience + Bardic Knowledge means that your centuries-old dwarven bard will know basically everything.
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An excellent point! Though, one needn't take the prestige classes at all for that benefit. A properly aligned bard (one that worships Irori, at least) should consider the Deific Obedience feat for the +4 sacred bonus to knowledge checks alone.
That being said, I find that Bards get even more synergy from
Shelyn's obedience involves making and giving away a work of art each day, which shouldn't be too difficult as it can be a performance too, as long as you do it for free. In return, you get a +4 sacred bonus on Perform and Craft checks; the Perform checks, bear in mind, work for your Versatile Performance if you're a bard, so this is a feat to consider for a Bard even if you aren't going to take the prestige classes.
Of course, if going with a Bard Archetype that gives up Versatile Performance, you are likely to find Ventnor's Irorian suggestion more profitable, depending on what flavor you are going for.
Bard 5 / Evangelist 10
By character level 11, this guy can have four versatile performances, which if you choose correctly can cover all of the skills covered by Versatile Performance (Oratory, Dance, Percussion, Act, in your order of preference). Combined with the +4 sacred bonus to Perform checks that Shelyn's obedience gives you, and the two class skills of choice granted by Evangelist, and the Multitude of Talents ability, this guy is a better skill monkey than any other I've seen.
He won't be as good a knowledge jockey as Ventor's Irorian Bard, admittedly, but he'll be good enough with a few ranks and Breadth of Knowledge, AND he'll be considerably better at every other sort of skill. Consider the alternate human feature to get several Skill Focus feats (which you'll use for various performs)
Paladin 4 / Monk (Sohei) 1 / Sentinel 10
As pointed out by Deadmanwalking below, this build doesn't work, because it doesn't satisfy the BAB+5 requirement of Sentinel. If you really like the idea of it, then just do Paladin 4 / Monk (Sohei) 2 / Sentinel 10. Not too painful, because the second level of Monk gets you yet another boost to all your saves, evasion, and another Bonus feat.
Sohei is for two important reasons: you can flurry in light armor (though they don't get Monk AC or fast movement in armor), and you can always act in the surprise round. Note that since you are restricted to light armor, you're not going to be able to be as big of a tank if you go this path. It's Mithral Breastplate for you!
So, this has two main things going for it. One, you can grab the Crusader's Flurry at level 5 to do flurry of blows with a Glaive (reach weapon). Two, the 2nd Sentinel Boon discussed above. Between that, and the +4 attack and damage with a Glaive granted by the Sentinel class, and the 'holy' property that the Sentinel class adds, your Smite Evil will be more potent than a Straight Paladin, though you'll only ever have two of them a day. PLUS, you'll still have that reach-flurry and +4 attack and damage on all the opponents you can't smite in a day.
If you want to rock the Full-Plate, or otherwise don't like flurrying, switch out the Monk for Fighter (Weapon Master) 1. Later on in your build, as some point go to Fighter (Weapon Master) 3, which will net you Weapon Training with your Glaive, and thus the ability to use the Gloves of Dueling.
I would do Paladin 4 > Fighter 1 > Sentinel 6 (for the smiting boon) > Fighter 3 > Sentinel 10 > Fighter 6 in this case, ending as Paladin 4 / Fighter 6 / Sentinel 10. Once you hit level 19 (i.e. Fighter 5), then if allowed in your campaign, "retrain" to get rid of the Weapon Master archetype. You'll keep weapon training but gain armor training as well.
OR, do Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 > Paladin 2 > Sentinel 10 > Paladin 4 > Fighter 6. This has the advantage of getting you the weapon training much earlier, but you'll only have the one smite. I prefer the first option.
The Exalted boons are good, if not unbelievably amazing. The 2nd one lets you summon a lillend azata as a standard action for minutes per day equal to your HD. This will be great when you first get the ability, but slowly decrease in usefulness. The 3rd one lets you give your weapon the 'holy' and 'shock' weapon properties as a free action for a round a few times a day. Solid, if limited in uses.
The key with picking domains for your Cleric levels is to look for domains that "mature" at 6th level, rather than 8th, so you can switch out after Cleric 6. Shelyn has the luck domain, which is at least mostly matured at level 6 (you will lose out on additional uses of the good fortune ability), and it's a solid domain regardless, with the "Bit of Luck" ability being very useful when the Rogue REALLY needs to disarm that trap, etc. For the second domain, consider using the Separatist archetype to choose a domain from outside your deity's purview; there are countless possibilities.
For the third domain you pick from your exalted levels, there are no clear stand-outs, though many good options among Shelyn's domains and subdomains. Just recall that the domain powers are based on your Exalted level, not on your character level, when choosing.
As with the Irorian Exalted, I think your best bet is a human, so you can use the Focused Study alternate racial trait for Exalted's feat tax.
Overall, this is a solid build, but not one I would characterize as "great".
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Note for Paladin builds involving these classes (like the Sentinel one suggested for Shelyn):
If you go Oath of Vengeance, you'll basically never need more Smite Evils, since you'll easily manage 5 a day, maybe 6, by burning your (nearly useless at high levels) Lay on Hands.
This makes Sentinel Paladins, say, much more viable.
Also, just for the record, Sentinel requires BAB +5, making Paladin 4/Monk 1 not work. You'd need a total of 6 levels of Paladin and Monk for that to work.
D'oh! You are correct on the BAB, sir. I then have to suggest Fighter (Weapon Master) 1 / Paladin 4 being the numerically superior option. Fixed the above to correct for this.
As for Oath of Vengeance, I struggled with that, but can you really see a Paladin of Shelyn taking such an oath?
Contrast the Paladin Code of Shelyn (scroll down), to the Oath of Vengeance. Now, many DMs might not care, but a player better have a good explanation as to how those two work together to satisfy me :)
That being said, when we get to Paladins of Iomedae, you are most definitely correct. :)
I would like to introduce you to my Shioji Petilom build.
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As for Oath of Vengeance, I struggled with that, but can you really see a Paladin of Shelyn taking such an oath?
Actually, yes. Pretty easily.
Contrast the Paladin Code of Shelyn (scroll down), to the Oath of Vengeance. Now, many DMs might not care, but a player better have a good explanation as to how those two work together to satisfy me :)
Look at Oath of Vengeance again. It definitely makes you a dedicated hunter of Evil...but it doesn't necessitate killing those you hunt, or indeed, any acts aside from not letting lesser evils distract you from your pursuit of your primary target. So it forbids getting distracted and that's it. It's very mission oriented (and is thematically focused on punishment to some degree), but it's also no more violent than any other Paladin, and thus, IMO, works fine with Shelyn, Sarenrae and other more peaceful deities.
The name's a bit ominous, but nothing in the mechanics really bears that out as a necessity of the Oath.
That being said, when we get to Paladins of Iomedae, you are most definitely correct. :)
Iomedae definitely works, too. :)
At Ravingdork: I like the flavor a lot; what's the build, exactly? Paladin 6 / Evangelist 10?
Look at Oath of Vengeance again. It definitely makes you a dedicated hunter of Evil...but it doesn't necessitate killing those you hunt, or indeed, any acts aside from not letting lesser evils distract you from your pursuit of your primary target. So it forbids getting distracted and that's it. It's very mission oriented (and is thematically focused on punishment to some degree), but it's also no more violent than any other Paladin, and thus, IMO, works fine with Shelyn, Sarenrae and other more peaceful deities.
The name's a bit ominous, but nothing in the mechanics really bears that out as a necessity of the Oath.
I suppose that seems fair. In that case, I was going to go into this for the Paladin of Iomedae, but Sacred Servant is almost always a good thing to tack onto the Oath of Vengeance for a Paladin 4 build. Essentially you're giving up one smite evil use for a domain or Inquisition as a 1st level cleric, as well as a spell slot to cast the 1st level spell of the domain. Since you have so many smite evil uses, it's not hard to find a domain whose 1st level powers makes this trade worth-while.
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Ravingdork inspired me, so here's Abadar!
Abadar's obedience involves balancing keys and currency on a scale. Easy to do with your stuff, but impossible if your DM steals your pack, so be careful. The bonus is a flat +4 sacred bonus to saves against every spell or effect generated by a creature with a chaotic alignment. This is situationally amazing, but annoying if your DM is the kind to adjust encounters to target your weaknesses (he could just avoid throwing chaotic creatures at you, if he likes being petty, so be aware).
As you can tell from the boons, this is going to be best for a smooth city character.
A Paladin seems like a nice lead in, but sadly not the best: due to the restriction on behavior (Abadar requires his paladins to be honest and honorable), you're not going to be able to make use of the glibness, nor the disguise bonus, nor the sniping creatures ability. Thus, the evangelist boons give you little benefit. A Paladin of Abadar is probably best off taking the Deific Obedience feat, but not any of the prestige classes, in my opinion.
On the other hand, if you can come up with a roleplaying reason your DM approves of, however, that lets you circumvent this restriction, a Paladin (Sacred Servant, Oath of Vengeance) 4 / Fighter 1 / Evangelist 10 seems potentially promising. You can use Sacred Servant to get the amazing Travel Domain boosts and 1st level ability, and use the Evangelist to grab fighter feats and bonuses, all while leaving you a smooth-talking son-of-a-gun (add Bluff and Disguise, or others of choice, as class skills via Evangelist). Your smite damage isn't going to go up, but you've still got a ton of them due to Oath of Vengeance, and +CHA to hit and +4 damage, bypassing DR, is really good enough if you ask me.
X 1 / Rogue 4 / Evangelist is also a good possibility, where X is your full-BAB dip of choice. Only worth it if you can make good use of the boons, however; otherwise, you're not gaining enough out of the prestige class.
And, as always, the primary arcane casting classes are a good combination with Evangelist, with Sorcerer 5 / Evangelist 10 being my favorite in this case. The loss of one casting level does indeed hurt a lot, but with glibness your fella can be the best liar in the world, and can handle a boatload of other skills besides. This is in addition to the extra AC granted by the Evangelist class, and the amazing capstone, which can boost your spell DCs by 2.
For builds, Abadar's domains all "mature" at 8th level. If your DM allows the Leadership feat, Travel and Nobility is an amazing combination; do Cleric 8 / Exalted 10 for sure. As for all Exalted builds, your best race is human, since you can use Focused Study human alternate to pay the feat tax, and have feats left over. In fact, since you're not "switching" until 9th level, use your 1st level Skill Focus for whatever you want, and use the 8th level one to pay the feat tax. For the extra domain from Exalted, Law is nice for SLAs, but the other ones are fine, too.
If your DM does not allow leadership, Travel remains an obvious choice. For the second domain, Abadar has a few good options, but nothing amazing. Consider the Separatist cleric archetype to be able to pick your second domain from the full list of options. Healing is nice, since even with the 2 level delay from Separatist, you'll get Empowered Healing at Cleric 8, before switching.
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I like the build; nice grab of the Divine Favor SLA. Technically, the jaunt boots take a standard action to activate, since they are "on command". That being said, the intent is almost certainly that they don't take a standard action, since that makes them unusuable.
How did you qualify for the Crafting feats?
Iomadae's obedience is pretty easy to do as long as you don't lose a holy symbol of Iomedae (have it tattooed on you somewhere); basically just a prayer. The boon is uninspiring, a +4 sacred bonus to Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility). A little boost for your diplomacy-face, but nothing to write home about, and not worth taking if not followed up with a prestige class.
Sorcerer 5 / Evangelist 10
I would only consider this build for a campaign where I knew there would be a lot of chaotic or evil outsiders. The second evangelist boon will basically let you skip the Spell Penetration feats, and the third one lets you be a much more effective damage dealer. The loss of one spell progression level is indeed very painful, but you'll be able to handle a plethora of skills for your party (A human can even dump INT all the way if you want, and still have enough to do Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and UMD like a beast. Don't forget the +4 diplomacy boost from the Obedience.), in addition to being much more durable than a straight Sorcerer, and having that delicious +4 CHA multiple times per day capstone from the Evangelist.
Paladin (Oath of Vengeance, Sacred Servant) 4 / Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 / Sentinel 10
Paladin 4 > Fighter 1 > Sentinel 6 > Fighter 3 > Sentinel 10.
This is very similar to the Shelyn Paladin suggested above, with a few key differences. First, as suggested by Deadmanwalking, Oath of Vengeance is both well suited to a Paladin of Iomedae, and very powerful, as it's going to give you plenty of Smite Evil uses per day. Second, because you'll have those Smite Evil uses, taking the Sacred Servant archetype, and thus giving up one Smite Evil use for a Domain, is another solid choice. Your effective domain level will only ever be 1st, so you'll want to pick a Domain or Inquisition that gives good 1st level benefits. There are many to choose from, so find one that suits your flavor.
Other than that, it works like above. Get to Sentinel 6 to grab the smiting boon, then get to third level Weapon Master to grab Weapon training before returning to Sentinel. If continuing above level 17, round out to Fighter 6, and retrain to get rid of the Weapon Master archetype.
Since you're using a longsword, you won't be as offensively powerful, or be able to control the battlfield as well, as the Shelyn Paladin, but you'll be a much more Solid Sword-and-Board tank. Just ensure you don't lose your longsword (Impervious enhancement, adamantine, Gloves of Dueling, locked guantlet, etc.), because you become pretty terrible without it. In fact, keep a backup. Or two.
Weird, so "Gnome Magic" qualifies gnomes for all crafting feats? I'd probably call shennanigans on that in my games, but if it's legit by the FAQ, good on you for spotting that :).
Ah; yeah, I have no doubt you're correct as to the official rules, but I don't allow SLAs to qualify anyone for anything; makes it simple, and prevents things like using Aasimar to get into stuff early (which is badly mainly because it makes Aasimar the race you *must* use to do things optimally. In my book anything that reduces variety among builds is a bad thing.)
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When the ACG comes out, I am going to be making a Warpriest/Evangelist of Pharasma that uses Daggers. The obedience is simple and boosts accuracy, and with the River Rat trait and sacred weapon you can do the average damage of a longsword with a dagger at level one. Thanks to aligned class, it will keep growing.
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Rudy2 said: "Since you're using a longsword, you won't be as offensively powerful, or be able to control the battlfield as well, as the Shelyn Paladin, but you'll be a much more Solid Sword-and-Board tank. Just ensure you don't lose your longsword (Impervious enhancement, adamantine, Gloves of Dueling, locked guantlet, etc.), because you become pretty terrible without it. In fact, keep a backup. Or two."
No need for sword and board. A Longsword can be used 2-handed and it has 19-20 crit. By the time you get to the prestige class, the 1d8 will be less important.
Great thread btw. What can we do with Calistria?
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True that on the longsword; it will probably be worth keeping a Quickdraw shield or a buckler around at the least, though, since you can use it 1-handed. Sadly, you'll never have the reach of the Glaive, but the larger crit range does make up for a lot of that.
Calistria, hm....
Calistria's obedience involves exchanging sex for money, information, or other advantage. Lacking a partner, you can just fantasize about revenge for a bit. Not terribly difficult, as long as your character concept doesn't revolt at the idea.
The bonus is situational but powerful: +4 bonus on charisma checks and charisma-based skill checks when dealing with a creature that could be sexually attracted to you. You'll definitely want access to disguise/alter self type stuff in order to make the fullest use of this, and make sure you're not squeamish about cross-dressing. Overall, this is potentially very, very useful even without any of the PrCs.
The Evangelist boons are very bard-centric, and indeed I think that's the strongest way to use the Evangelist. The first two are some SLAs, some of which are only usable by the bard. The third lets you reflect a spell on its caster as an immediate action with a Perform check (which you should have no trouble rockin') 1/day. Awesome, even though you won't get it until level 14 at the earliest.
Suggested Build: Bard 5 > Evangelist 10 > Bard 10 (or other PrC of choice after Evangelist). You can also do Bard 6 > Evangelist 10 > Bard 10 if you want the 2nd Versatile Performance a level earlier, as well as the increase in all three saves at Bard 6. Either way.
You're going to be the party face in all ways, and be amazing at it. Get your disguise up, grab alter self as a spell, get a hat of disguise, etc. As long as you can sexually appeal to whatever you're dealing with, you'll get the +4 bonus on all of your Versatile Performance skills. I'd either be a human, for the Focused Study alternate racial ability for your Versatile Performances, or be an older lived race and grab Breadth of Experience, so you don't have to spend too many skill points on knowledge skills. (I know I repeat about Focused Study/Breadth of Experience... that's because they are both amazing).
Holy Heck! Some good stuff here. The second boon, assuming you have the charm domain, gives you a 3+WIS/day touch attack that stuns the target for 1 round. no save. The third lets you add your charisma bonus to your AC when you're wearing light or no armor; it seems to be counted as an addition to your dex bonus, so touch AC, but not flat-footed. nice. Once you get this, your charisma should be at least +4 with enhancement bonuses, so drop down to Mithral Breastplate if you were wearing heavier.
You'll definitely want the Charm domain here, because that stun thing is amazing. For the other, look for one that grants a power at 6th level; Luck and Knowledge are both solid choices. Then, Cleric 6 / Exalted 10. As for the other Exalted builds, the best is probably human using Focused Study for the feat tax.
This build is going to be feat-intensive, so I'd recommend:
Fighter 5 > Sentinel 10 > Fighter 6 > whatever.
You'll want to grab at least Improved Whip Mastery, so that you threaten a larger area. Greater Whip Mastery is optional.
Overall, I'm not sure if this build is optimal, but it's at least viable, and has a lot of fun potential.
At Ravingdork: I like the flavor a lot; what's the build, exactly? Paladin 6 / Evangelist 10?
The point of the build is to have as much stuff being pumped by Charisma as possible.
Evangelist simply allowed me to make it more powerful.
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Calistria's obedience involves exchanging sex for money, information, or other advantage. Lacking a partner, you can just fantasize about revenge for a bit. Not terribly difficult, as long as your character concept doesn't revolt at the idea.
Note: Because the sex explicitly needs to be consensual, a sexually picky, monogamous or even celibate character can still do this Obedience since the nature of their sexual preferences/decisions makes such things unavailable, leaving the vengeance-meditation fall back. So...definitely works with any concept that works with Calistria worship, IMO.
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This build explains itself, I think; you're here mainly for that third Evangelist boon. With your Zen Archer abilities, you get twice your wisdom bonus on attack rolls within 30 feet, and your wisdom bonus to damage.
Sorry Ruby2 unless I am mistaken PF prohibits the use of a stat to modify an ability twice - so yes you can add wisdom to hit and damage but you cant add it to hit again.
apologies if this has already been discussed
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This build explains itself, I think; you're here mainly for that third Evangelist boon. With your Zen Archer abilities, you get twice your wisdom bonus on attack rolls within 30 feet, and your wisdom bonus to damage.Sorry Ruby2 unless I am mistaken PF prohibits the use of a stat to modify an ability twice - so yes you can add wisdom to hit and damage but you cant add it to hit again.
apologies if this has already been discussed
There's no rule stating this, I don't believe. There's an opinion by, I think, one developer, but it's completely unofficial.
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Note: Because the sex explicitly needs to be consensual, a sexually picky, monogamous or even celibate character can still do this Obedience since the nature of their sexual preferences/decisions makes such things unavailable, leaving the vengeance-meditation fall back. So...definitely works with any concept that works with Calistria worship, IMO.
I'd be wary of pushing this too far with a DM :). If you wanted to say "I'm homosexual", I'd be fine with that as a DM, but I'd expect you to at least spend time trying to find a suitable partner. Or if you were a higher level caster use an extended 'alter self', you should be changing your sex as necessary. If you tried to say "I'm asexual", or "celibate" I'd tell you that that was a cop-out, and you shouldn't be worshiping Calistria anyway.
It will vary from DM to DM, of course. Celibacy would be fine in PFS, I'm sure. This obedience represents the fullest extent to which they've pushed adult boundaries with their official material, I believe, and no one running a PFS game is going to tell you your character has to have sex.
There's no rule stating this, I don't believe. There's an opinion by, I think, one developer, but it's completely unofficial.
It's JJ, not a developer. That being said, JJ's opinion carries a lot of weight with many DMs, so it's something to check with your DM about.
For your sentinel build look at the gladiator fighter that also goes along with the hat of disguise stuff. A +4 on your performance combat check is a big deal and grabbing the feats required you can be throwing down free action dazzling displays, bonus 1d6 to damage, and a bonus +2 on attacks.
Or even a ninja or rogue could make a viable option. Allows freely moving into a flanking position without provoking along with increasing your range with melee weapons to safely sneak attack from a little further away.
Gladiator is not a bad idea, but the +4 is questionable. The condition for the +4 is that you have to be dealing with someone who could be sexually attracted to you. A DM could flat say this doesn't apply to crowds, or they could say it only applied to crowds where all/most were sexually attracted to you, or they could give you a fractional bonus. Perhaps a +2 if half the crowd was sexually attracted to you.
I wouldn't recommend a straight ninja/rogue build. But there is a build with rogue that comes to mind:
That being said, Rogue 4 / Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 is not a bad idea. You can either take all seven levels before Sentinel, or take six of them and work the seventh in later. I personally would go Fighter 1 > Rogue 2 (grab WF (whip)) > Fighter 3 (weapon training) > Rogue 3 > Sentinel 3 > Rogue 4 > Sentinel 10 > Fighter 6. So, ending as Rogue 4 / Fighter 6 / Sentinel 10. If retraining rules were allowed, I'd retrain to remove my Weapon Master archetype once I hit Fighter 5 at character level 19.
You can use your two Rogue tricks for the needed Weapon Focus and another Combat feat, grab Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, and add a +2d6 sneak attack for when sneak attack happens to work out. Either make use of the trapfinding or trade it out via an archetype. The fighter levels boost your feats and get you the desirable weapon training.
Now that I've written it out, I think I like this build better than the Straight Fighter 5 / Sentinel 10, though that doesn't make it better :)
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Let's check out our mutual friend, Asmodeus himself!
Obedience: you have to torture someone and drain blood then play around with it. 'Preferably someone unwilling' but there appears to be no mechanical disadvantage. if I was your GM and just did it to another party member for 1HP damage I wouldn't be impressed. You need a ruby-handled knife, which might be expensive.
In return you get +4 Profane bonus to Fire effects.
It's not great. The ritual is a hassle and the power is situational. It works in RP, as evil temples and the Cheliax royal court can do it every morning as part of their ablutions, but I'd be unlikely to other as a PC.
Evangelist: "1: Pitiless Judgment (Sp) wrathAPG 3/day, flames of the faithfulAPG 2/day, or bestow curse 1/day"
Okay stuff. Already this is looking suited to the Inquisitor. Curiously, Inquisitor isn't one of the classes deemed likely for Asmodeus in the Evangelist class description.
"2: Tireless Judgment (Ex) You gain Favored JudgmentUM as a bonus feat, choosing chaotic outsider, good outsider, or a subtype of humanoid. If you don’t have the judgment class feature, you instead gain a +4 profane bonus on Survival checks made to track a creature or individual. This boon doesn’t grant you any ranks in the Survival skill; therefore, if you have no ranks, you still can follow tracks only if the DC of the task is 10 or lower."
Appalling if you are not an Inquisitor, pretty sweet if you are. Maybe, just maybe you can do Evangelist with an Ranger or bounty hunter type, but Inquisitors are good bounty hunters anyway.
"3: Resounding Judgment (Sp) Once per day, you can channel the effects of resounding blowAPG through your weapon, though you don’t need to cast (or even know) the spell. You must declare your use of this ability before you make the attack roll. On a hit, the target is affected as if you had cast resounding blow before your attack, and the surrounding area rings with the sound of vicious, booming laughter. You don’t gain the stunning effect of the spell unless you have access to the judgment or smite ability. If your attack misses, the resounding blow effect is wasted."
It's a 4th level spell once a day. And not a great spell. As GM, I would let the 'vicious booming laughter' have a mechanical effect, especially if you set it off in the town market.
In conclusion, be an Inquisitor. Inquisitor 5/Evangelist 10, simple as that. Better than straight Inquisitor. Having said that, an Inquisitor/Evangelist of Asmodeus might not be the most pleasant PC in the party.
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Exalted:
"1: Darkfire (Sp) burning hands 3/day, darkness 2/day, or deeper darkness 1/day"
Deeper Darkness is the peach here because...
"2: Embersight (Su) Your eyes take on the appearance of red-hot, glowing embers, granting you the ability to see in darkness much like devils. You gain darkvision to a range of 60 feet. If you chose either darkness or deeper darkness as the spell-like ability granted by your first boon, you can also see perfectly through both darkness and deeper darkness. If you already have darkvision to a range of 60 feet or more, instead increase the range of your darkvision by 10 feet. Your eyes make you extremely distinctive, causing you to take a –4 penalty on Disguise checks."
... it makes you be able to see in magical darkness. There are 101 reasons why this is a good thing. Clerics may not be the sneakiness of classes, but they enjoy having a few undisturbed rounds of buffing before it all kicks off. And it's great for escaping.
"3: Hellfire Blast (Sp) You can use delayed blast fireball once per day as a spell-like ability to throw a sphere of soulscouring hellfire. The hellfire is a distinctive mixture of black and crimson flames in which screaming devilish faces can be seen twisting and writhing. Half the damage from this spell is fire, while the other half is unholy. This damage modification applies only to the delayed blast fireball you create through this boon, not to any other spells, effects, or attacks."
Yeah yeah, blasts are underwhelming. However, it's a very cool party piece and you really ought to be able to find good use of a Delayed Unholy ranged explosion.
Sentinel:
Bit odd as Asmodeus's weapon is the not great Mace. However, it's a simple weapon and Rogues can use simple weapons...
"2: Deceitful Duelist (Ex) Your devotion to the Prince of Darkness has imbued you with some of his trickery. Three times per day, you can attempt a feint as a swift action. You gain a +4 profane bonus on your Bluff check when attempting to feint using this ability. If you successfully attack a creature that has lost its Dexterity bonus to AC as a result of your feint, you deal an additional 1d6 points of damage. This is in addition to any other precision-based damage you deal—such as from a sneak attack—and isn’t multiplied on a critical hit."
Be a rogue then. It improves your feint and adds to your Sneak Attack. You don't have to use a mace for it either, though there is the bonus.
Rogue 7/Sentinel 10, or Rogue ?/Fighter ?/Sentinel 10. I'd consider Swashbuckler, but I fear too many Swashbuckler abilities scale to level which the Sentinel doesn't really get. Sentinel is straight up better than a Rogue (not difficult) and allows one to make an effective fighter/assassin of the Dark Lord.
When the ACG comes out, I am going to be making a Warpriest/Evangelist of Pharasma that uses Daggers. The obedience is simple and boosts accuracy, and with the River Rat trait and sacred weapon you can do the average damage of a longsword with a dagger at level one. Thanks to aligned class, it will keep growing.
I'm unfamiliar with the ACG, but you did get me thinking of Pharasma...
PHARASMA
The obedience is pretty creepy, but not too arduous, depending on the DM. You're required to collect small bones when you can, and then perform a daily ritual using the name of a newly born person and a newly deceased person. A particular DM (such as myself) may place a time limit on what "newly" born or deceased was, forcing you to seek out that information, either by word of mouth or divination. I would be particular about this, because the bonus is pretty outstanding: a +2 profane/sacred bonus to attack rolls with daggers. Very specific, but amazing for that specific.
For build options, I can see the extra revelation, potentially chosen from another mystery, as making this viable for an Oracle. That being said, most players taking Pharasma's Obedience are interested in stabbing things with daggers. Not that the two are mutually exclusive necessarily!
The first sort of build that occurs to me is a two-handed sneak attacker. Fighter 1 / Rogue (Knife Fighter) 4 / Evangelist 10. The Fighter 1 is both for the extra feat, and because that extra loss of BAB from Rogue 5 is always painful. Pretty straight-forward build. If you didn't want to rely too much on the sneak attack, you could even make Fighter your aligned class rather than Rogue. Though, in that case, I wouldn't bother with Evangelist at all, just go Rogue 4 / Fighter+, and just use the Obedience without the PrC.
The other is a straight Oracle 6 / Evangelist 10. I do Oracle 6 because I like the boost to all saves every class gets at level 6, but Oracle 5 would be fine, too. This build is really just using the knife as a backup. Potentially good if you can find a way to make the free revelation from the Bones mystery work for your build. At worst, the Near Death revelation will get you a +4 bonus on saves against diseases, mind-affecting effects, poisons, death effects, sleep effects, and stunning.
That's not a list to shake a stick at. Unless the stick is a wand with an effect other than the ones listed.
Cleric 6 / Exalted 10 is not bad, not amazing. Healing should be one of your domains, since it "finishes" at level 6.
Knowledge is another good one, but I would be tempted to save that for my third domain with Exalted. Exalted grants the domain spells as a SLA 1/day, which would let you cast true seeing 1/day without paying the material component cost.
Again, you'll be using a dagger as a fallback weapon. Oh, and, blah blah, Human, blah blah, Focused Study, blah blah, feat tax. :)
Overall, this is a perfectly solid build if you like the theme of it, but it's nothing to write home about.
That being said, I'm sure you could build an effective, if not perhaps optimal, character based around this. One possibility:
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 > Rogue (Knife Fighter) 3 > Sentinel 3 > Rogue (Knife Fighter) 4 > Sentinel 10.
Similar to the Evangelist Option, this one has much less sneak attack capability, but can hit much more consistently, and deal more damage where sneak attack isn't possible.
An alternate option is to just do a three level dip into Sentinel, which nets you a +2 to hit and damage with daggers and a bonus feat. The free 'holy' property at level 5 is very tempting, though, as is the 8th level Leadership, if allowed.
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Note: Because the sex explicitly needs to be consensual, a sexually picky, monogamous or even celibate character can still do this Obedience since the nature of their sexual preferences/decisions makes such things unavailable, leaving the vengeance-meditation fall back. So...definitely works with any concept that works with Calistria worship, IMO.I'd be wary of pushing this too far with a DM :). If you wanted to say "I'm homosexual", I'd be fine with that as a DM, but I'd expect you to at least spend time trying to find a suitable partner. Or if you were a higher level caster use an extended 'alter self', you should be changing your sex as necessary. If you tried to say "I'm asexual", or "celibate" I'd tell you that that was a cop-out, and you shouldn't be worshiping Calistria anyway.
It will vary from DM to DM, of course. Celibacy would be fine in PFS, I'm sure. This obedience represents the fullest extent to which they've pushed adult boundaries with their official material, I believe, and no one running a PFS game is going to tell you your character has to have sex.
I'm not gonna derail this thread, but I've had this discussion before. I'll link that discussion.
Short version: I strongly disagree. Calistria is more than just sex, and rather explicitly never forces her worshipers into prostitution (it's stated word for word in her deity article that she doesn't). Which not allowing the Obedience if they just didn't want to be a prostitute would explicitly do.
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Let's check out our mutual friend, Asmodeus himself!
Lets. :)
Captain K says:Obedience: you have to torture someone and drain blood then play around with it. 'Preferably someone unwilling' but there appears to be no mechanical disadvantage. if I was your GM and just did it to another party member for 1HP damage I wouldn't be impressed. You need a ruby-handled knife, which might be expensive.In return you get +4 Profane bonus to Fire effects.
It's not great. The ritual is a hassle and the power is situational. It works in RP, as evil temples and the Cheliax royal court can do it every morning as part of their ablutions, but I'd be unlikely to other as a PC.
Evangelist: "1: Pitiless Judgment (Sp) wrathAPG 3/day, flames of the faithfulAPG 2/day, or bestow curse 1/day"
Okay stuff. Already this is looking suited to the Inquisitor. Curiously, Inquisitor isn't one of the classes deemed likely for Asmodeus in the Evangelist class description.
"2: Tireless Judgment (Ex) You gain Favored JudgmentUM as a bonus feat, choosing chaotic outsider, good outsider, or a subtype of humanoid. If you don’t have the judgment class feature, you instead gain a +4 profane bonus on Survival checks made to track a creature or individual. This boon doesn’t grant you any ranks in the Survival skill; therefore, if you have no ranks, you still can follow tracks only if the DC of the task is 10 or lower."
Appalling if you are not an Inquisitor, pretty sweet if you are. Maybe, just maybe you can do Evangelist with an Ranger or bounty hunter type, but Inquisitors are good bounty hunters anyway.
"3: Resounding Judgment (Sp) Once per day, you can channel the effects of resounding blowAPG through your weapon, though you don’t need to cast (or even know) the spell. You must declare your use of this ability before you make the attack roll. On a hit, the target is affected as if you had cast resounding blow before your attack, and the surrounding area rings with the sound of vicious, booming laughter. You don’t gain the stunning effect of the spell unless you have access to the judgment or smite ability. If your attack misses, the resounding blow effect is wasted."
It's a 4th level spell once a day. And not a great spell. As GM, I would let the 'vicious booming laughter' have a mechanical effect, especially if you set it off in the town market.
In conclusion, be an Inquisitor. Inquisitor 5/Evangelist 10, simple as that. Better than straight Inquisitor. Having said that, an Inquisitor/Evangelist of Asmodeus might not be the most pleasant PC in the party.
I full agree regarding the difficult nature of the obedience. That's an obedience really made for NPCs. Your familiar as a target? Hm..
Yes, I agree that Inquisitor is the way to go for Evangelist. I would consider going Inquisitor 6 / Evangelist 10, though; I'm fond of the 6th level boost to saves, and the powers aren't great. Overall, I'm unconvinced it would be better than a straight Inquisitor, due to the poorer saves, and the loss of level, without that much benefit.
Captain K says:Exalted:"1: Darkfire (Sp) burning hands 3/day, darkness 2/day, or deeper darkness 1/day"
Deeper Darkness is the peach here because...
"2: Embersight (Su) Your eyes take on the appearance of red-hot, glowing embers, granting you the ability to see in darkness much like devils. You gain darkvision to a range of 60 feet. If you chose either darkness or deeper darkness as the spell-like ability granted by your first boon, you can also see perfectly through both darkness and deeper darkness. If you already have darkvision to a range of 60 feet or more, instead increase the range of your darkvision by 10 feet. Your eyes make you extremely distinctive, causing you to take a –4 penalty on Disguise checks."
... it makes you be able to see in magical darkness. There are 101 reasons why this is a good thing. Clerics may not be the sneakiness of classes, but they enjoy having a few undisturbed rounds of buffing before it all kicks off. And it's great for escaping.
"3: Hellfire Blast (Sp) You can use delayed blast fireball once per day as a spell-like ability to throw a sphere of soulscouring hellfire. The hellfire is a distinctive mixture of black and crimson flames in which screaming devilish faces can be seen twisting and writhing. Half the damage from this spell is fire, while the other half is unholy. This damage modification applies only to the delayed blast fireball you create through this boon, not to any other spells, effects, or attacks."
Yeah yeah, blasts are underwhelming. However, it's a very cool party piece and you really ought to be able to find good use of a Delayed Unholy ranged explosion.
The seeing in magical darkness is indeed really good, and the blast is a good one.
None of the domains, at a glance, have anything that would make a particularly great SLA. The trickery and magic domains both have decent potential for it, though. As the domains largely aren't matured until 8th level, you may be looking at Cleric 8 / Exalted 10, though delaying that seeing in magical darkness is painful.
Captain K says:Sentinel:Bit odd as Asmodeus's weapon is the not great Mace. However, it's a simple weapon and Rogues can use simple weapons...
"2: Deceitful Duelist (Ex) Your devotion to the Prince of Darkness has imbued you with some of his trickery. Three times per day, you can attempt a feint as a swift action. You gain a +4 profane bonus on your Bluff check when attempting to feint using this ability. If you successfully attack a creature that has lost its Dexterity bonus to AC as a result of your feint, you deal an additional 1d6 points of damage. This is in addition to any other precision-based damage you deal—such as from a sneak attack—and isn’t multiplied on a critical hit."
Be a rogue then. It improves your feint and adds to your Sneak Attack. You don't have to use a mace for it either, though there is the bonus.
Rogue 7/Sentinel 10, or Rogue ?/Fighter ?/Sentinel 10. I'd consider Swashbuckler, but I fear too many Swashbuckler abilities scale to level which the Sentinel doesn't really get. Sentinel is straight up better than a Rogue (not difficult) and allows one to make an effective fighter/assassin of the Dark Lord.
Hmm... I'm not sure a full Sentinel dip would be worth it, here. I might go just to Sentinel 6, and then look for a prestige class to boost the sneak attack further? Not sure.
Short version: I strongly disagree. Calistria is more than just sex, and rather explicitly never forces her worshipers into prostitution (it's stated word for word in her deity article that she doesn't). Which not allowing the Obedience if they just didn't want to be a prostitute would explicitly do.
Hm... I suppose I would evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. If a player role-played well a character motivated by revenge/vengeance, then I would surely let them get by with just the revenge fantasy each day. On the other hand, if it seemed they just wanted to enjoy the nice numerical benefit without showing that their character was one driven by passions of some kind, I would call shenanigans.
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When the ACG comes out, I am going to be making a Warpriest/Evangelist of Pharasma that uses Daggers. The obedience is simple and boosts accuracy, and with the River Rat trait and sacred weapon you can do the average damage of a longsword with a dagger at level one. Thanks to aligned class, it will keep growing.I'm unfamiliar with the ACG, but you did get me thinking of Pharasma...
PHARASMA
The obedience is pretty creepy, but not too arduous, depending on the DM. You're required to collect small bones when you can, and then perform a daily ritual using the name of a newly born person and a newly deceased person. A particular DM (such as myself) may place a time limit on what "newly" born or deceased was, forcing you to seek out that information, either by word of mouth or divination. I would be particular about this, because the bonus is pretty outstanding: a +2 profane/sacred bonus to attack rolls with daggers. Very specific, but amazing for that specific.** spoiler omitted **...
The warpriest is a fighter/cleric hybrid class. They have 3/4 BAB, 6th level casting, an ability similar to lay on hands that they can use for healing or swift action cast a self buff. They also have a sacred weapon which is either the deities favored weapon, or any weapon they have weapon focus in. This can override the base damage of the weapon with a scaling damage die that is similar to a monk's unarmed damage.
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I don't have time at the moment to do Rovagug, but the Evangelist powers for Arcane spellcasters are incredible. Superb. On the other hand, the Obedience is utterly ridiculous. It's easy to do and it's funny, but you look like an infantile idiot. It grants a craptastic bonus too (unless you hate doors and tables).
Contrast this with Cayden Cailean's obedience which you would do anyway (sing, drink beer) or at the other extreme, Lamashtu's which is possibly unplayable. It really is for nutjobs only.
The bonus is +4 to attack and damage rolls against objects. Does that apply to sunder? I honestly don't know, but if it does, it's not craptastic at all, and potentially very powerful for a sundering build (which are useful in PFS in particular, where you don't care about destroying the items of the things you are fighting).
As for the bonus to arcane spellcasters that is incredible. At first I read it as a "1 round" action, which would have been lame. But as a full-round... wow.