Balancing a game by increasing point buy works every time!


Homebrew and House Rules


I have been playing and Dming paizo since its inception and have had a nagging feeling that counter to my instincts increasing point buy would balance the game.

Early on I was a stickler for the 15 point buy. Over many games and some experimentation this attitude has changed.

Why?

1. 1 dimensional casters really need only one stat to be optimised.
2.Warriors need multiple stats.
3. Animal companions, Summons, Eildolons etc all have set stats so the higher your PC (and npc) warriors stats are the less the above will dominate, unbalance and make mockery of fighting professionals.
4. Breadth in stats allows for breadth in abilities and the shoring of holes which increases player joy, minimises tpks and means players have no basis or right for any claims you should'go easy on them' and not let your genius npcs abuse their weaknesses as they had the opportunity to close them.
5. More interesting characters.
6. Less one dimensional power gaming with tedious linear power characters.
7. More interesting classes in the party/wider representation of MAD classes.
8. The actual vs supposed ability for fighters and other warriors to have multiple feat chains reliant on multiple stats.

Its been some years trying it, stubbornness aside at last,I am calling it. Increase point buy and balance YOUR game!


I've never tried 25 but I usually stick to 20. I always thought about doing the class-based point allotment thing. (Rogues, fighters, monks get 25 while wizards and sorcs get 15)


Except some of the most powerful concepts/classes are also somewhat mad. Sure the straight wizard doesnt need alot of stats. But what about a battle cleric or a wildshaping druid? Both of these are somewhat mad. I am not saying the game should always be played low point buy, but I dont think its an effective balancing method.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

How many points do you go with now?


I don't do point-buy, but the general consensus I've noticed is the less the PB, the more unbalanced things will be in favor of full casters.

If I was considering PB, I'd probably do 20 points and set a limit of 16 pre-racial.


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Tormsskull wrote:

I don't do point-buy, but the general consensus I've noticed is the less the PB, the more unbalanced things will be in favor of full casters.

If I was considering PB, I'd probably do 20 points and set a limit of 16 pre-racial.

This is a solid way to handle it. Personally I've taken to given an array score that is quite generous, which is 16/16/15/14,13/11. I still allow the option to do 20 point buy, but it really penalizes people who absolutely demand a single high attribute (wizards/sorcerers) while giving rogues/monks a lot more points to do what they need to effectively. It basically ensures that highest score anyone starts with is an 18, unless you're really willing to miss out on being well rounded. For anyone that isn't an offensive full caster the benefit of being well rounded usually tops starting with a 20 in a stat.

Sovereign Court

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I see words and phrases like "one dimensional" and "more interesting" and am convinced this notion has little to do with balance.

Liberty's Edge

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I do 25 point buy, with a max of 16 pre-racial, only one stat below 10, and that no lower than 8 (also pre-racial).

This allows for relatively balanced, heroic, characters without messing up the default assumptions of the game, and winds up with the top three or four stats being on-par with optimized 15 point-buy for any non-SAD characters without requiring Fighters to ditch all the mental stats or anything like that (something I hate for thematic reasons).

And the 25 point-buy mostly keeps people from complaining about the restrictions, too.


I've suggested a split point buy a couple times. 15 points for physical stats, 10 for mental. The inability to cross dump from physical to mental or mental to physical makes it about 20 point buy equivalent. It produces well rounded characters and does more for martials than casters, especially if you don't let players drop the 10 point mental buy to 9 since that's required to get an 18.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I use same system as Deadmanwalking. I give my players a standard array of 16/14/14/12/10/8. This helps to avoid massively powerful SAD classes and also encourages use of MAD classes, since you're not that far behind.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I also do 25pt buy these days and I've also found it helps not only balance different character types but, for my group at least, has also encouraged them to play characters that they have found interesting that they wouldn't have otherwise.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

One other feature of a high point buy is that the PCs are more notably superior to most NPCs -- and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Atarlost's system is intriguing, especially as a way to encourage martical characters. If I were to use it, I might consider allowing a 2 for 1 swap between the mental and physical ability scores to permit more variety in character types, but at a substantial cost to effective point buy. Thus, for example, if somebody want to play a mentally gifted but physically feeble wizard, he could convert 10 of the 15 physical ability score points into 5 extra mental ability score points. I would not allow reducing either pool below zero (so having Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7 would not work).


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I increased point buy, but I do not allow any points back from dumping. This solves most issues.

I have considered a Max 16 in Casting stat pre-racial. Hmm, maybe a max 16 post racial.


I use 25 PB But I'm used to upping encounter difficulties, my favorite method I've used was a set array 16,15,14,13,12,11 and gave them 7 point buy that could only be used to increase stats.


I usually use 25 PB. I like high powered games, and it lets super MAD classes show up sometimes (Champions of Irori, for instance, are basically impossible on a 15 PB, and still somewhat difficult on a 20).


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Point buy is the devil, every time someone uses it a puppy dies.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

*starts making hundreds and thousands of point-buy characters*


We use 25 point buy ac cross games. Also now a fan of rulings being agreed by all and applied across all games (nothing worse than a DM that bans something only to abuse it when playing or a PC who argues one thing for one character and the inverse for another - a its not always feasible to stop playing with such pillocks).

Battle clerics and wild shape druids might be mad but as they are more mad than a fighter the fighter comes out on top compared to a fighter in a lower point buy world.

Never tried the 16 cap. Most intriguing and seems to have support from those who have tried it ... def. giving it a go next game.

Players seem to like being able to play things they find interesting but otherwise don't in low point buys and personally I think it highly unlikely any would make it to 1st and even get trained in a medieval type world with under average stats.... THIS IS SPARTA rules tended to apply - down the reject child pit with you !!! be it on purpose or because your siblings/tribes members beat you too food/took your food or you got diseased or tricked easily or just didn't have the charisma to be breast fed when times were tough/avoid being eaten etc. Such a different world today!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I like Arrays. My favorite is:

15/14/13/12/11/10

Means race choices matter, and the MAD classes still can get a foot in.


I use two options: when i give high magic items availability and tons of gold and when i don't. This is because i feel MAD characters also need a lot of items to keep their stats relevant, so i felt i needed to balance that too.

1) Mountains of gold: i start with a 15 point buy then i give another 1 point at level 2 and every level thereafter, plus 1 bonus point at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. This points are expendable at every level up and are all pooled until you spend them. Racial modifier are taken into account only after you spent your points (so they basically means you pay stats as they were higher or lower, depending on the modifiers). This makes so that the SAD character gets his awesome high stat (almost equal to normal advancement, two points gets lost on the way and i'm working on adding them in a consistent way) which will cost more and more to advance the higher you get, but the MAD character also can spread his points on many stats without falling too much behind. In the end, the characters have the same point buy up to level 20. I noticed this encourages a little to balance more characters, but also doesn't punish those who don't dump everything into their ONE TRUE STAT, which is what i want to achieve: "sure, you can spend 5 levels to get a +1 modifier on your primary stat, but you could also get two or even more +1 modifiers which will help you level a lot of weaknesses for the same price" and the higher you get the more you are encouraged to spread your points.

2) This magic shop is closed, (never) come again later: I use the same system but i give 5 points per level from level 2 to 5, 6 points per level from 6 to 10, 7 from 11 to 15 and 8 from 16 to 20 (togheter with integrated big six). This makes characters stronger all around (since both MAD and SAD get a lot more points than they would normally get, even with items), but it helps them since most magic items are not easily available.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I prefer stat arrays more than other methods. Array > rolling > point buy. And I swear I read in the CRB that you can't raise an ability score above 20 except for the belts/headbands. Not sure if I remember that correctly or not.

And having the stat capped at 18 post-racial seems like an interesting ruling.


I've heard of each player rolling a set of stats and then the whole group uses the same array from those so no one player gets screwed by the dice. I've never tried it but it looks like a good idea for our group where someone invariably rolls a 42pt buy and someone else a 2pt. We currently use a 25pt buy to maintain balance as far as stats go.


born_of_fire wrote:
I've heard of each player rolling a set of stats and then the whole group uses the same array from those so no one player gets screwed by the dice. I've never tried it but it looks like a good idea for our group where someone invariably rolls a 42pt buy and someone else a 2pt.

This is what my group will start doing next game. We've always done rolling before. Never been interested in any form of pointbuy.


Claxon wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:

I don't do point-buy, but the general consensus I've noticed is the less the PB, the more unbalanced things will be in favor of full casters.

If I was considering PB, I'd probably do 20 points and set a limit of 16 pre-racial.

This is a solid way to handle it. Personally I've taken to given an array score that is quite generous, which is 16/16/15/14,13/11. I still allow the option to do 20 point buy, but it really penalizes people who absolutely demand a single high attribute (wizards/sorcerers) while giving rogues/monks a lot more points to do what they need to effectively. It basically ensures that highest score anyone starts with is an 18, unless you're really willing to miss out on being well rounded. For anyone that isn't an offensive full caster the benefit of being well rounded usually tops starting with a 20 in a stat.

A 36-point build? That is pretty generous. But on the other hand, it's great for characters meant to be heroic.

Sovereign Court

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insaneogeddon wrote:
Players seem to like being able to play things they find interesting but otherwise don't in low point buys and personally I think it highly unlikely any would make it to 1st and even get trained in a medieval type world with under average stats.... THIS IS SPARTA rules tended to apply - down the reject child pit with you !!! be it on purpose or because your siblings/tribes members beat you too food/took your food or you got diseased or tricked easily or just didn't have the charisma to be breast fed when times were tough/avoid being eaten etc. Such a different world today!

LOLWUT?

Sovereign Court

A quick question for the GM's that use 25pt (or higher) buys.

How does this effect your encounter designs (In response to the CR system, built around PCs with 15 point builds)? Do you just use the same CRs or do you need to scale everything up a tad to still make it challenging. Any tips or tricks you use?

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:
I increased point buy, but I do not allow any points back from dumping. This solves most issues.

Same here. I don't allow additional points from intentionally lower a score below 10. That mitigates most dump sta issues. I don't object if a player wants to lower a score below 10 for roleplay reasons.

-Skeld


I use 1d8 plus 10 myself, with all the repercussions that go with it. After your roll you can opt for the same array zhayne listed if thats your flavor.


Pan wrote:
insaneogeddon wrote:
Players seem to like being able to play things they find interesting but otherwise don't in low point buys and personally I think it highly unlikely any would make it to 1st and even get trained in a medieval type world with under average stats.... THIS IS SPARTA rules tended to apply - down the reject child pit with you !!! be it on purpose or because your siblings/tribes members beat you too food/took your food or you got diseased or tricked easily or just didn't have the charisma to be breast fed when times were tough/avoid being eaten etc. Such a different world today!
LOLWUT?

I don't know what he meant, but my take is this:

When I play, I don't want to suck. I suck plenty in the real world and more importantly if I suck I'm dragging down everyone else.

Take the Monk class. Lots of delightful abilities and weird tricks and fun stuff. You get to be Bruce Leeroy or Jackie Chen! But unless you have at least 3 scores above 16 you SUCK. Your AC is in the toilet, your HP is too, you're a fighter who can't FIGHT and a skill monkey with a sore lack of skills. Maybe you can do ONE of those jobs by letting the rest fall by the wayside but then why didn't you just play a fighter who could do it easier and (still) better?

Let's keep going with this on a more common class:

Say you want to be a Cleric of Desna who is a good cleric but she also learned, as a youth, how to play the slide-whistle. She was raised in a hole of a town before she found the call, but somehow got ahold of a slide-whistle in her youth and it (and her time spent playing it) were some of her most treasured moments in a pretty lousy childhood of hunger and pain.

Now if you wanna be a good cleric you're supposed to have knowledge religion, you really need diplomacy (since the party is otherwise a band of wandering psychopaths who used charisma as a dump stat), you really, really want to have spellcraft (for item crafting or just knowing what spell the fighter just succumbed to) and you're already at 3 skills you want to have maxed out at every level. A cleric only gets 2 and generally can't afford to burn ability points on intelligence.

Every time I make a character, EVERY TIME, I hit a moment when I have to decide if I'm going to spend a precious resource (trait, skill point, stat point, starting cash, even bonus starting languages) on what is GOOD and USEFUL (to myself and or the group) and what is an interesting and fun character idiom. Some amount of this cannot be avoided, and that's fine, but you have a lot more room for "flights of fancy" when you've got more resources to play with. You can be strong enough to slay the wicked princess and still be charming enough that the beautiful dragon will give you the time of day (instead of screaming and running from your hideous visage).

I mean I was messing around with the Archer Cleric build from Tark's Cleric guide, and it was pretty sucky without massive bonuses to your stat block. Sure the cleric can get away with a lot more because the party needs to take care of its healing, but good gravy did I need to shift a lotta points, feats, and traits around to be able to hit anything with that bow and still cast spells. I would still be "only average" with some seriously good starting stats, but I would be miles more interesting and fun to play (for me and I think for the rest of the group) than a more "standard" build.

I'm fun, but more importantly I'm fun without being a stone in the dice bag, dragging down and endangering the party with my uselessness.


Read.. history ..


master_marshmallow wrote:
Point buy is the devil, every time someone uses it a puppy dies.

Go play H.A.R.P.

You'll love their non-point buy rules. The higher you roll, the more exp you get!


boring7 wrote:


Now if you wanna be a good cleric you're supposed to have knowledge religion, you really need diplomacy (since the party is otherwise a band of wandering psychopaths who used charisma as a dump stat), you really, really want to have spellcraft (for item crafting or just knowing what spell the fighter just succumbed to) and you're already at 3 skills you want to have maxed out at every level. A cleric only gets 2 and generally can't afford to burn ability points on intelligence.

A 12 INT is cheap and easy. Add your favored class and being human, and that's FIVE SkP/level.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've recently started a campaign where I made everyone take the Heroic NPC stat array of 15/14/13/12/10/8 (pre-racial). Not very far in yet (PbP is a slow medium), but I'm curious to see how that and my other houserules pan out.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
I've recently started a campaign where I made everyone take the Heroic NPC stat array of 15/14/13/12/10/8 (pre-racial). Not very far in yet (PbP is a slow medium), but I'm curious to see how that and my other houserules pan out.

I just ran my group of 6 players through The Dragon's Demand using that array at character generation and they all did fine (and had fun!).

-Skeld

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