Is it just me or is the lion blade prestige class really lackluster? Master spy is so much better, but then again, it was designed post-launch for the PFRPG, whereas the lion blade's an old 3.5 prestige class. Still, a lot of prestige classes from that era were much better...
Now, the lion blades are too cool to receive such secondary treatment. What to do, though? Update the class or just scrap it in favor of the master spy? They could just be a faction after all... I mean, why re-invent the wheel? A disguise expert that can blend into crowds and resist mind-affecting/divination effects? That's the master spy!
What'ye think?
Does master spy have abilities that allow them to move more readily?
Let me check...
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Well, it's a pretty big price they pay in terms of opportunity cost. The master spy just seems better at most everything, save moving through crowds (and that's a 1st level ability for the lion blade; her capstone ability is clearly inferior, and well, that's frustrating).
Here's some ideas for revisions:
Prerequisites: Drop Skill Focus (Perform); reduce the sneak attack required from +2d6 to +1d6; and add the "face in the crowd" rogue talent. Thus, the minimum level for entry becomes 5th (bard 3/rogue 2); fits the template that most prestige classes use.
In addition, once per day per two class levels, a lion blade can deceive another creature into answering a single question of her choice. The target must answer truthfully to the best of its ability (Will negates); the lion blade always knows whether or not this ability has succeeded. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the lion blade's level + the lion blade's Cha modifier). This is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability that relies on audible components.
In addition, the lion blade gains the constant effect of a nondetection spell with a caster level equal to her character level. She can suppress or resume this protection as a standard action. If dispelled, the lion blade cannot resume the nondetection for 1d4 rounds.
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EDIT: Ninja'd by 26 minutes - but I didn't see it, as I was building my detailed comparisons.
Sorry for the walls of text - lightning means I can't code things quickly, and I'm being called away anyway... apologies.
Okay, so let's look at a few of the pre-requisites and compare them to the pre-requisites of classes I find somewhat similar (d8, 6-ish skills, subtle killing, trickery).
I'm going to look at: Lion Blade, Shadow Dancer, Assassin, Master Spy
Alignment: Any neutral.
Feats: Deceitful, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Perform).
Skills: Bluff 3 ranks, Diplomacy 3 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks, either Perform (singing) or Perform (acting) 3 ranks.
Special: Inspire competence, Taldor affinity, sneak attack +2d6.
Four feats, one of dubious value, five skills (three of 3 ranks and two of five ranks)
Requirements
To qualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility.
Skills: Stealth 5 ranks*, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.
Three feats of decent value (one dubious due to low attack and limited offense, but a decent one), two skills (one 5 ranks, one 2 ranks)
Requirements
To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil.
Skills: Disguise 2 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks*.
Special: The character must kill someone for no other reason than to become an assassin.
No feats, two skills (one 2 ranks, one 5 ranks), special really-easy-to-do quest
Requirements
To qualify to become a master spy, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Feats: Deceitful, Iron Will.
Skills: Bluff 7 ranks, Disguise 7 ranks, Perception 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks.
Two feats, four skills (two 7 ranks, two 5 ranks).
The Master Spy has the "highest minimum level" entry requirements, but Lion Blade's requirements are just... onerous. Four feats and five skills: more in both categories than any other class, even the one that requires a higher "level".
You could not enter Lion Blade due to feat taxes before 7th anyway (like a Master Spy) without being a human or a fighter... and you need to have at least three levels of rogue (or ninja) and three levels of bard anyway, so a human would only lower the value to 6th level, and a fighter doesn't work. (NOTE: you cannot do a Sandman bard, because that archetype replaces inspire courage, which is necessary; there are a few other options - you could get a prestige class or something else, but that would definitively delay you more).
So either a 6th level human/7th level anything else with a very exclusive build, or a 7th level anything for highest level entry requirements.
Lion Blade loses out for sure.
But what doe they get for these requirements?
Basics first.
d8, 6+ skills, good reflex and will
Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex)No additional proficiency.
d8, 6+ skills, good reflex
Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex)Bonus proficiency: Shadowdancers are proficient with the club, crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Shadowdancers are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Well, lower requirements result in a lower save... but the skills still look great, and they get a lot of proficiency - perhaps overlapping (some almost certainly overlapping), but some might not.
d8, 4+ skills, good reflex
Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)Bonus proficiency: Assassins are proficient with the crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Assassins are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Again, lower requirements yield lower save (and lower skills!), but they have a better skill list, and they have a much-superior proficiency list (gaining all crossbows and all daggers, as well as the best less-redundant weapons and equal armor to shadow dancers).
d8, 6+ skills, good reflex and will
Skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).No additional proficiency
So, the skill list is superior (no acrobatics, climb, intimdiate, or perform... but gaining escape artist, all knowledge skills, linguistics, sleight of hand, and - exceedingly importantly - use magic device) and all else is the same; entry requirements ever-so-slightly higher as to be irrelevant (one level you won't care about... and no specific class features... means you're free to build as you like).
Again, Lion Blade loses in most regards. It's not looking good for the class: so far it's a higher level to access it, more rigid in terms of what you have to do to get to it, onerous non-synergystic requirements to enter, and getting there doesn't net you much in terms of basics to do so.
Now special abilities by level.
1st level
* Master of disguise: no penalty on disguise checks
* move with crowd: ignore difficult terrain made of people
* inspire self +2: a nifty self-buff of limitless duration, but low over-all application in either combat or any of the skills that they need to have to enter the prestige class (increases to +4 at 5th lvl, and +6 at 9th lvl)
Compare Shadow Dancer (hide in plain sight - two levels earlier; three or four if you count entry requirements), Assassin (better sneak attack, the death attack ability [useful, though not too powerful; comparable to the second level ability slowing strike], and Master Spy (better sneak attack, one overlap ability, better/more synergistic skill bonus). Ignoring difficult terrain is the only truly unique thing, and there are other, easier ways to get similar abilities and become a master spy. Lion Blade loses out all-round.
2nd Level
* Slowing strike: reduce the opponent's landspeed by 5 ft in exchange for a 1 dice of sneak attack; nifty, but not as potent as a merciful weapon, and difficult to reduce an opponent to 0 speed anyway due to the difficulty of getting consistent sneak attacks off, stripping it of a relatively important feature; it makes for a great "chase scene" concept (slowing the enemy down as you gain on them), but it's relatively weak, functionally, requiring only that you hit them once (twice if you're small or a dwarf, no times if you're a medium creature chasing a small one) to always be able to melee with them or always get away from them at your option, yet it's still really annoying to have to chase them down each round, being denied a full attack
* sneak attack +1d6: congratulations, you've waited until seventh level (or only sixth, if you're a human!) to get a minor boost to a sub-par attack that you should have had at 5th level; additionally, your increase is slow: +1d6 at 6th and again at 10th. You'll exit the prestige class with the ability to deal a total of +5d6 damage; your rogue peers will be doing +9d6 damage. Harsh.
Compare Shadowdancer (evasion, darkvsion [necessary if you're going to be sneak attacking in the dark], uncanny dodge), Assassin (okay, poison defense sucks, uncanny dodge is okay; this is worse), and Master Spy (ability to avoid divination in two manners: exactly what the lion blade wants to do, but cannot). So, except to the Assassin, Lion Blade loses out.
3rd
* Hide in plain sight: okay, this is a really useful ability, and, frankly, necessary to do stealthing at all. Also super-easy to set up, as you could just toss a jacket "over there" and suddenly there's an area of dim light within 10 ft. of you. Totally approved. It just... needed to come two levels earlier, when Shadowdancer did it.
* unexpected suggestion: (1/day) suggestion a flat-footed opponent. Nifty, flavorful, but really weak - the caster level is equal to your caster level (instead of your caster level plus class level) and it's just a 2nd level spell once per day with more limits than that spell has. (You could argue it's a 3rd level spell and thus +1 higher DC, which is good, but I presumed it was a bard spell, since you had to be a bard. For that matter, there's nothing governing the casting stat. Does it have a casting stat? Again, I'd presume it's bard, but it's not spelled out at all.)
Compare Shadowdancer (rogue talent's "eh", shadow illusion's "eh" - a little less compared to unexpected suggestion... maybe... depending on DC things - and summon shadow - a clear winner over unexpected suggestion and a lack of sneak attack with a boost to action economy and the ability to stick hands out from floors), Assassin (sneak attack increase), and Master Spy (spell-like a few times per day, and the ability to make more skill checks - untrained - with bonuses without limitations on inspire self). Again, the Lion Blade loses to all but the Assassin, but even that guy has a better chance of using his class abilities than the Lion Blade.
4th
* Expeditious advance: increase the speed by +10ft! Except when you don't! Very useful, but hard to use properly, a bit fiddly, and some confusing caveats - "don't wear heavier-than-light, but if armor slows you down, apply this first"... when would that ever come up?
Compare Shadow Dancer (shadow conjuration that just keeps getting better, and short range teleport!), Assassin (increased poison resist, nice bonus to hide weapons, and a GM-reliant ability to make people stay dead... meh), and Master Spy (more ability to negate divination, faster disguise, and better comparable sneak attack). Again, compared to all but the Assassin, the Lion Blade is the clear loser, and the Assassin does get a couple of nice things.
5th
* Inspire self +4
* glean information: actually a really decent ability... and one it should have gotten much earlier, preferably blended into Inspire Self or gained at the same time; the +2 is nice, and there's a good array of skills, but it doesn't synergize with Inspire Self (more the fault of Inspire Self, really), and the (1/day) other +2 loses out to the Master Spy's constant ability to do the same... two levels ago
Compare to Shadowdancer (defensive roll, improved uncanny dodge), Assassin (improved uncanny dodge, improved sneak attack), and Master Spy (more divination-negation, and slippery mind - because their high will save wasn't enough. :D). Clear loser: Lion Blade.
6th
* Sneak attack +2d6
Compare to Shadowdancer (rogue talent, increased teleport distances per day), Assassin (poison save bonus, really cool quiet death attack), and Master Spy (make alignment spells your tame puppies): Lionblade fail (and comes in a level or two late on the sneak attack increase).
7th
* Cloud the mind: Okay, the SR v. divination magic, and the +5 bonus to stealth (well, -5 penalty to observers' perception) is actually quite excellent.
* Secret Step: This is actually a really cool ability with excellent flavor that is entirely worthless when compared to a Shadowdancer's shadow jump ability; this will move you farther in a day at this level, just as far at next level, and less than two-thirds at 10th level, but it has far more restrictions and will still get you hurt from environmental hazards you pass through.
Compare to Shadowdancer (slippery mind - to make up for their lower will instead of supplement it), Assassin (sneak attack increase), Master Spy (sneak attack increase): clear winner is the Lion Blade this level! But... that's not because the Lion Blade is better, or even equal, but rather it's really solid abilities are here at seventh level instead of earlier, like most of the others. Also one of the abilities it does get here which is great is outclassed by an ability a class already has.
8th
* Narrow miss: swift action, gain concealment until the start of your next turn up to 5/day; very nice ability, but very finite in its uses, and thus not terribly strong; also the shadow dancer's shadow call ability is just superior, except in casting time
Compare Shadow Dancer (improved short range teleport equals the new ability just got last level, shadow evocation which just gets better), Assassin (poison bonus, hide in plain sight - okay, the Assassin loses), and Master Spy (death attack - what the Lion Blade should have - and the ability to deceive mages into thinking their spells worked when they didn't [useless in our house-ruled games, amazing in RAW games]). As of this level, the Assassin has lost the race. The late entry of Hide in Plain Sight, is great, as is the Swift Death next level, and the Sneak Attack is definitely superior, but the first two are both late entries; further, the Master Spy just received Death Attack and has more of a chance to use it.
For all that, though, the Assassin is still nearly comparable to the Lion Blade. The only place the Lion Blade will be superior is in a crowded area - but within that, area, they are, in fact, superior.
The Assassin is much easier to access than the Lion Blade. In fact, I'd almost recommend for humans to do exactly that: Bard 5, Assassin 3, Lion Blade 10 (if going for Lion Blade). But the Assassin is effectively out of the Running - I'll make a note of it in the following levels, but bear in mind, it's effectively obsolete.
9th
* Grandmaster of disguise: +2 bonus to disguise... that overlaps with a disguise kit... and 1/day full-round action to disguise self at a -20 penalty; this 9th level ability is so inferior to the 1st level ability of a Master Spy, it's ludicrous. It's pompous, overblown, self-important title is just the icing. It sounds so important to be so awful.
* inspire self +6
Compare Shadow Dancer (rogue talent), Assassin (poison resistance, swift death), Master Spy (hidden mind), and the Lion Blade hates his life. The Assassin, as noted in the last level, gives a last gasp of almost-relevance, but is quickly silenced in its inferiority in other regards. The Shadow Dancer gets nothing impressive, but there are better Rogue Talents than Grandmaster of Disguise. And the Master Spy just wins. Constant mindblank. Divination can now go sit down and weep... at 16th level, this is a perfect capstone or near-capstone for an AP, and it's a exquisite ability to have. Best of all, if it's dispelled, the Master Spy has plenty of near-redundant (less powerful) back-ups. Master Spy has just won the contest at 9th level. Nothing else comes close.
10th
* Silent soul: SR 20 v. mind-affecting is nice, a grand total of a +15 bonus (+10 bonus, but -5 to opposed perception) is nice, except that +10 of that is circumstance which... you know, means you can't really rely on circumstances to help you out any more. A great ability as a capstone... but no where near as potent as the 9th level Master Spy constant mind blank.
* Sneak attack +3d6
Compare Shadow Dancer (improved evasion, lots of short-range teleportation, and nice but weird bonuses in dim light), Assassin (poison save bonus and angel of death - suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck), and Master Spy (the ability to no-save deceive divination abilities and an improved sneak attack: not as good as 9th level ability, but decent enough): the clear loser is the Assassin, with Lion Blade and Shadow Dancer in close proximity to one another, and the Master Spy just jauntily walking ahead of them all.
In the end, Lion Blade is out-killed by Assassins, out-stealthed/moved/action-economied/magicked by the Shadow Dancer (though under-attacked), and out everything'd by the Master Spy.
It's... not even a contest.
The Lion Blade requires onerous entry requirements that don't possess any synergy with each other, and gains abilities that overlap with most of what it would want anyway, meaning it doesn't get bonuses so much as just doesn't have to carry or access relatively cheap equipment. The only thing the Lion Blade is better than is the Assassin, and that's not because it's any good: it's because the Assassin is very definitively a wussy, front-loaded class with terrible mid-level abilities, a few late-level abilities, and a stupid capstone.
If you want stealth and movement, go Shadowdancer (which is noted as a weak class).
If you want everything, go with Master Spy.
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Hell, even the mage of the veil has a leg up on the poor lion blade. While he's trying to blend in, the mage actually is.
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(Looking through my Inner Sea World Guide, it appears your avatar is actually a lion blade, Tacticslion. Was that intentional? And then there's your screen name... haha.)
Hell, even the mage of the veil has a leg up on the poor lion blade. While he's trying to blend in, the mage actually is.
I know. Really it's almost a perfect "Lion Blade" ability - it's a real shame that some other class gets it instead. It's a lonely road we they travel.
(Looking through my Inner Sea World Guide, it appears your avatar is actually a lion blade, Tacticslion. Was that intentional? And then there's your screen name... haha.)
<.<
>.<>.<
... are you trying to insinuate that I don't blend in?
Because otherwise, I have no idea what you could be talking about, citizen. Go about your business.
Just because I happen to think that Lion Blades should get a better deal... hmph.
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I always thought your avatar was an angel, but the "wing" bits turned out to be a cloak.
Though Lion Blade blows, is there any Golarion-specific prestige class that doesn't? Maybe Red Mantis Assassin (or "crimson assassin") and that one I only like because I see it as an apology to 3.5 Assassin fans for how Gods awful PF Assassin is. (Hey guys I got a great idea! Let's take the Assassin class, get rid of its magic, and base it on it's stupid death attack mechanic and not even make it better!)
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I always thought your avatar was an angel, but the "wing" bits turned out to be a cloak.
Well, I don't mean to brag, but someone did write a musical piece just for me.
Though Lion Blade blows, is there any Golarion-specific prestige class that doesn't?Magaambyan Arcanist.
The Cyphermage and Arclord of Nex are also solid. The Soul Warden is great in an undead-focused game, and is decent outside of one.
Aspis Agent is actually fairly decent.
Daggermark Poisoner actually makes being a poinsoner viable.
The Daivrat is an exceedingly potent class - if less potent than the Genie Binder, which I suppose isn't considered a Golarion-specific class -, (+2 to CHA checks with genies? YES PLEASE; plus a few nice bonus feats and special qualities), and, though I don't recall for sure, I think the Pathfinder Savant, Razmiran priest, and Veiled Illusionist (though I don't know if you'd consider the last Golarion-specific) are all just as solid as well, especially the last.
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The lion blades are every bit as cool as the aspis consortium, though! It's too bad the class was so poorly written. Maybe we can hope for a revised version some day, like how the hellknight was re-visited?
The lion blades are every bit as cool as the aspis consortium, though! It's too bad the class was so poorly written. Maybe we can hope for a revised version some day, like how the hellknight was re-visited?
It's funny (obvious hints of bias aside), I actually think the Lion Blades are - in theory - much cooler than the Aspis Consortium (oh, good, people who kill people for money) or even the Red Mantic (oh, good, people running around in bright red bug costumes); it's just the practice of the prestige class... fails.
For the record, I like the idea behind how the Assassin PrC was changed - I just wish more had been done with it. Also, give them a good fortitude save. For crying out loud, their bonus against poison is wussy, and they're going to be dealing with a lot of fortitude-related things anyway in the course of their job (dead bodies tend to produce lots of diseases, and Assassins are likely going to be tricking people into not realizing their deadliness...) and maybe grant them some weapon foci or specialization or something with Assassin weapons, and/or throw anything/catch off-guard and related feats just to make them even more of that "I am ridiculously deadly" feel.
I also like the ideas presented in the Lion Blade PrC... I just wish the good abilities were earlier, and they'd upped the value to be equivalent to other, similar classes: not to be the same, as that doesn't really work, but rather to do what they're supposed to do better.
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While the mechanics could probably use some work, I have to say I LOVE the concept of the Lion Blades. The Fluff part is great.
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The Grey Gardener and Aldori Swordlord prestige classes are great as well.
I'm not as familiar with the Gray Gardener as I should be.
Aldori Swordlord is pretty good, though. Painful to give up being a fighter for, and very feat-intensive, but definitely good.
While the mechanics could probably use some work, I have to say I LOVE the concept of the Lion Blades. The Fluff part is great.
So do I. Just not a fan of the class abilities.
Agreed with both of you.
Also, believe it or not, Detect Magic, I do have to come clean: my name and my avatar are more serendipitous instead of purposeful. It works out well, though. :D