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We all are aware of the martial and caster debate, but the one thing I haven't seen is a round by round account of it. Stating a scenario followed up by spells that a spellcaster could have actually proves nothing unless the spellcaster just happens to actually have them available. How about we break this down on a round by round basis and see how the martial and caster argument turns out then? If it's even possible on a message board.
I'm not sure how this is supposed to work? How are you determining what spells someone has or what they've prepared beforehand and so on?
And what are they fighting? Were they aware of what it is beforehand? What classes are we talking about? What level? Money and gear?
This is, of course, a pointless exercise. Ignoring the fact that Pathfinder groups do not operate in a vacuum but rather in a world created and managed by a GM who can manipulate the situational factors of an encounter to adjust to any bias... any theoretical situation can be constructed to the benefit of one side and the detriment of the other (in both directions).
Well all the arguments we see assume the caster casts about 5 or 6 spells and I want to see how that's all done when you don't have that many actions.
At high level you use time stop. And an additional time stop. That can get you 5 or 6 rounds to buff yourself. Of course, it is a 9th level spell. Burning two of those in a single encounter is a lot of your daily power, but if the situation merits it...
Well all the arguments we see assume the caster casts about 5 or 6 spells and I want to see how that's all done when you don't have that many actions.At high level you use time stop. And an additional time stop. That can get you 5 or 6 rounds to buff yourself. Of course, it is a 9th level spell.
Of course with a fast time demiplane you get double those each normal time day. And honestly, minute per level stuff extended is looking at 50 minutes, which is enough time to last you through a dungeon.
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Is there a rules question in this somewhere? (Where is the theorycraft forum?)
Is there a rules question in this somewhere?
No? I can barely tell what the first thing is asking. Looks something like "Schrodinger's caster isn't really, so show me a round by round case of martial vs caster!" which... are two unrelated things aren't they?
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Well all the arguments we see assume the caster casts about 5 or 6 spells and I want to see how that's all done when you don't have that many actions.I don't think this is largely true. For example, usually a wizard will cast a buff on him/herself if they see the fight coming. Let's say a Level 8 conjurer, plenty of different spells that target different saves and probably a very strong initiative if built right. Depending on the enemy type, wizard might summon a stinking cloud, throw someone in a pit, etc.; meanwhile they are likely in the air and mirror imaged. If not, they are, at least probably cowering behind the party. By the time martials get near them, they will probably have thrown enough at them and summoned enough creatures to put them down.
It all depends on the nature of the scenario. Give us a specific scenario, because that determines how casters will use their spells.
You are naming all these spells that have supposedly been cast all in ine go. How often does the caster know what's coming? My DM doesn't allow us all this time before hand to buff ourselves up.
You are naming all these spells that have supposedly been cast all in ine go. How often does the caster know what's coming? My DM doesn't allow us all this time before hand to buff ourselves up.Well all the arguments we see assume the caster casts about 5 or 6 spells and I want to see how that's all done when you don't have that many actions.I don't think this is largely true. For example, usually a wizard will cast a buff on him/herself if they see the fight coming. Let's say a Level 8 conjurer, plenty of different spells that target different saves and probably a very strong initiative if built right. Depending on the enemy type, wizard might summon a stinking cloud, throw someone in a pit, etc.; meanwhile they are likely in the air and mirror imaged. If not, they are, at least probably cowering behind the party. By the time martials get near them, they will probably have thrown enough at them and summoned enough creatures to put them down.
It all depends on the nature of the scenario. Give us a specific scenario, because that determines how casters will use their spells.
Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...
Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...
Hey! Your setting up as though the caster has a chance to prepare. That's crazy talk. Real fights take place in a forest, in an ambush, by foes you had no chance to see! Also, they're mind blanked for bonus points.
Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...Buffing is not caster specific.
Anybody with UMD or items can buff, if they know a fight is coming.
On the other hand, spellcasting is.
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On the other hand, spellcasting is.Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...Buffing is not caster specific.
Anybody with UMD or items can buff, if they know a fight is coming.
UMD says the character who invested can pre-buff, and cherry pick their buffs from every spell list in the game.
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UMD says the character who invested can pre-buff, and cherry pick their buffs from every spell list in the game.On the other hand, spellcasting is.Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...Buffing is not caster specific.
Anybody with UMD or items can buff, if they know a fight is coming.
And? I didn't say anything about that. Just saying UMD isn't really a class feature, but spell casting is.
As we all know, you should weight a class's value based on his ability to pick a certain raise and UMD, since that's what sets him apart from everyone else!... except you know, not so much.
Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...Buffing is not caster specific.
Anybody with UMD or items can buff, if they know a fight is coming.
Sure until we're talking about spells that you need a scroll for like Greater Heroism. Unless martials keep a stock of scrolls on them, "They can UMD it" isn't a valid argument and if they *do* keep a stock of scrolls to be used before such things the cost of doing so is going to cripple them.
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UMD says the character who invested can pre-buff, and cherry pick their buffs from every spell list in the game.On the other hand, spellcasting is.Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...Buffing is not caster specific.
Anybody with UMD or items can buff, if they know a fight is coming.
And? I didn't say anything about that. Just saying UMD isn't really a class feature, but spell casting is.
As we all know, you should weight a class's value based on his ability to pick a certain raise and UMD, since that's what sets him apart from everyone else!... except you know, not so much.
Which nets you zero advantage in preparing for a fight. In fact, the guy with UMD has the advantage: he can cherry pick from a larger pool of spells.
I'm not going to lie here, every caster should have UMD (Repeat after me, Bead of Karma OP) and thus has the same advantage, which as others have stated is not an advantage of your class.
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Sure until we're talking about spells that you need a scroll for like Greater Heroism. Unless martials keep a stock of scrolls on them, "They can UMD it" isn't a valid argument and if they *do* keep a stock of scrolls to be used before such things the cost of doing so is going to cripple them.Well you see... when you have to go to Tal Ar Shien's Hall of Ten Thousand Torments, before walking into the entrance you might consider casting a spell or 2... or 3... or...Buffing is not caster specific.
Anybody with UMD or items can buff, if they know a fight is coming.
I enjoy how the attempt to prove casters are superior always turns into casters get to pre-buff, take any feat they want and spend WBL however they want. Melee classes are not allowed an (extensive) list of skills, feats or wealth expenditures.
If you want to compare equality, you compare with equal resources. UMD is core rulebook, available to everybody, and gives anyone who invests a considerable portion of the advantages you scream about casters having.
To keep from moving the goalposts, or actually to define the goalposts, let's give it more of a setup.
Say the APL is 7, is that high enough to showcase martial:caster disparity?
Not really, the caster martial disparity doesn't really show until the teens. Before then martials do tend to rule the roost, with casters garnering ever greater levels of power.
In truth, what it boils down to is, can the martial kill the caster before they have a chance to act? If the answer is no, then the caster has won (or at least not died).
Not really, the caster martial disparity doesn't really show until the teens. Before then martials do tend to rule the roost, with casters garnering ever greater levels of power.To keep from moving the goalposts, or actually to define the goalposts, let's give it more of a setup.
Say the APL is 7, is that high enough to showcase martial:caster disparity?
Nah, it exist, it just gets more apparent as you level. There are level one spells that already give great options that create it, like color spray for a SoL, and charm person for utility, and grease for a bit of both.
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My usual take on this debate:
In the vacuum of a single encounter, the caster should win, because they have a lot of powerful but limited resources. Sure you can double timestop, cast a bunch of spells and murder an encounter, but what happens if you have another encounter 10 minutes later? And 10 after that? What if your party is ambushed in the night and your caster doesn't have time to prepare spells or refresh spell slots? Suddenly the reliability of the fighter is looking a whole lot better. If you want to see the Fighter and Rogue shine in your game, you have to, as a GM, build your adventure with your player's daily resources in mind and make an effort to drain said resources. This doesn't work as well in PFS obviously because you are intended to finish the scenario in one sitting and there's only so many encounters you can work in there, but in a regular campaign, consider having several sessions all happen in one day and you'll see the Martial characters have their moment.
Why are you even raising PvP. Caster/Martial disparity has very little to do with PvP. It is about the different ability of classes to contribute to varying sorts of different encounters and to problem solving issues outside of combat. Who can kill who with what has very little to do with it.
Personally I see the real shift starting around level 3 spells. Level 4 makes it more acute when things like Charm Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Sending, Dimension Door and Scrying become available Fifth level spells blow the entire thing out of the water with teleport, dominate person, wall of stone, lesser planar binding, plane shift etc all allowing enormous in game impact both on and off the battlefield.
It's not necessarily PVP, it's not as though the NPCs never has casters on their side. PVP is a completely separate issue, but it does allow one to demonstrate how casters can dominate (as does pretty much any situation).
And you're going to exactly what I was thinking of, namely, that a caster can remove themselves from a dangerous situation and prepare to fight another day by using abilities spells like teleport.
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Eh, these sorts of mock battles are like asking who would win between Batman and X. Did Batman get to prepare? Batman. Did Batman not get to prepare? Probably still Batman, but maybe someone else, if it was a slow week for the writers.
Casters are Batman. Casters in a game where the GM is less strict tend towards BadGod by Morrison. They can be beaten, sure, but you'll need to work for it and exploit weaknesses.
I'm still unclear what this "test" is going to accomplish. Shadowsoul, is there a bar of truth that will convince you of what these people have been saying?
Rules forum, do you know it ?
Bah, reading the title, what did I expected ?
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Eh, these sorts of mock battles are like asking who would win between Batman and X. Did Batman get to prepare? Batman. Did Batman not get to prepare? Probably still Batman, but maybe someone else, if it was a slow week for the writers.
Casters are Batman. Casters in a game where the GM is less strict tend towards BadGod by Morrison. They can be beaten, sure, but you'll need to work for it and exploit weaknesses.
I'm still unclear what this "test" is going to accomplish. Shadowsoul, is there a bar of truth that will convince you of what these people have been saying?
The reason most of this isn't going to work shows a lot of the BS that these caster/martial threads brew up. Can casters wreck games? Of course they can, but not like what a few posters on these boards claim. Vacuum scenarios are nothing but theorycraft and prove nothing at the end of the day.