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RPG Superstar 2015

Player just had his sword sundered and now he's mad at the DM


Gamer Talk

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Silver Crusade

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Basically the BBEG, ogre fighter, sundered the barbarians magical greatsword and now the player is pissed to the point of rage quitting. We all explained that sundering is a legit rule but he wouldn't here of it. He's angry at the DM for pulling a "cheap" move as he calls it. The DM did explain that the game will be played by the rules as written but the player just won't listen.

Ever have this in your game?

Marathon Voter 2014

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes, I have seen people get mad about things in games I have played in.


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Sunders happen. People hate losing their stuff. The sword can still be fixed with Make Whole and a bit of cash.

Silver Crusade

It was more okay to die than to lose his sword.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.

As Serisan said: Sunder happens. Get over it and find someone to cast Make Whole.

If he still wants to complain, he can fight MY BBEG who specializes in Called Shots and removing limbs with massive damage. Good luck fixing that with a Make Whole.

Dedicated Voter 2013

If you're playing an AP, does the guy understand that basically every single encounter has a "tactics" section with what the baddie will do?

If it's not an AP... good on the GM for not being boring.

ETC: By "being boring" I'm referring to having a standard whack-and-be-whacked baddie, not DMing an AP.


He's an adventurer, he's bound to get a better weapon soon anyway, unless that sword was sort of a signature weapon (an heirloom or something). In which case the situation would make for an awesome plot hook to restore the weapon.

Things like injuries, sundered equipment, curses and disease tend to irritate a lot of players way more than they should. So he'll have to make do with a weaker weapon for a while and be marginally less powerful. I have the feeling that people forget that this is still a roleplaying game, not just a dungeon crawler.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If this would happen to my character I'd let him go on an epic quest to replace fix his sword. Or, I would take the ogre's weapon.


Maybe the player isn't aware that he can fix the sword. I would tell him this, maybe make a nice quest out of it :)


shallowsoul wrote:
It was more okay to die than to lose his sword.

ironically dying, is less of an inconvenience than losing your magic weapon, because, while losing the item puts you at a few thousand GP disadvantage for a while, dying means you just get a new character at current party level with all the appropriate gear. And you get to repurpose your character which means you have the potential to fix weakspots in the party, or at the very least retcon bad choices you made with your previous character's build.

Grand Lodge

21 people marked this as a favorite.

Would you say that the Ogre sundered as part of his attacks or as a standard action???

*duck and cover*


Do you, as a GM have simulationist cred? That is, do your players have the reasonable belief that you are neutral in that matter? Does there exist the reasonable belief that the sword was sundered because it was the best move tactically or strategically from the standpoint of the BBEG who did it? Or is it more perceived as GM spite or the GM picking on a PC he finds overpowered?

One of the big reasons I push simulationism so hard is that your games can be MUCH RICHER in terms of situations, themes, etc when you've got that simulationist cred---when your players recognize that you'll give them as much rope as they ask for with which to hang themselves. The same situations generate exponentially more ill will among players when they're expecting a Gamist/narrativist frame, which is, IMO, unfortunately the most common frame these days. The whole 'dick move' list would be awfully short were simulationist the dominant frame, or even the normal 'second suit'.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yes this has happened before in game, loosing a certain special items tends to turn grown men into 5yr old's in our gaming group. It was a shock to see than, but I am pretty use to it now. I game with a group of military men, and we had one fling dice across the room, quit and storm out in a rage. So yeah, it happens. Sorry to hear you have to deal with this.

Was it particularly special to him. (clan blade, family blade etc)

It doesn't excuse his rash, child like behavior but there is always two sides to a story.


What I would do kind of depends on how experianced the player was.

1. If he is a new player I would explain that characters die and sunders happen otherwise the game wouldn't be challenging. Then I would probally explain that he can get the sword repaired and heres how: (insert adventure hook here).

2. If he is a veteran player I would explain that as he should already know characters die and sunders happen otherwise the game wouldn't be challenging and that if he was expecting an easy adventure he came to the wrong table and should find another. And then if he decides to stay off him the repair sword adventure hook.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Wow he really needs to up his maturity level. This is a game first and foremost, he shouldn't be getting upset about an imaginary magical weapon that is pretty easily replaced. There are ways to fix it and/or buy/find something new. One of the biggest things I do when I adventure is have multiple backup weapons in case something like that happens. The DM was well within his rights to attempt a sunder and if the dice gods were cruel to the PC, oh well man up and go about the adventuring with a different weapon until he gets his old one replaced or fixed.


First the guy needs some time to cool off. Rational talk doesn't penetrate anger very well.

Once he's had a chance to cool down, present what the group would like to do to address the issue. Go to get it fixed right away, wait until a better break in the story and have him use a back up weapon until then, make due with the oversize penalty and use the ogre's magic weapon, or what have you.

One of the disadvantages of the using craft magic arms and armour to upgrade equipment is that fewer characters have that old weapon still in their gear for emergencies. My high level barbarian back in an earlier edition always had his last axe in reserve in case the current one was lost or sundered... Which did happen. I wasn't thrilled, but I don't think anyone is when their toys break. :)

Sunder is more reversible now, which is good, but the cautionary is to use it only occasionally. Even mellow people will get edgy if it's happening regularly.

Eric


It is a cheap move. I mean- why would the BBEG sunder the BBN’s weapon, since the BBEG expects to win, and thus he’s breaking his own loot?

Pc’s rarely sunder the Bad guys stuff for that very reason.

Now sure, if it’s a Ogre-bane weapon, the equivalent of “Biter” or “beater”, known and hated by all Ogre-kind, then that’s just good RPing.

Stuff is both a reward for the PC and a reward for the player for having done well. This is why we no longer rain experience points/levels by undead touch.


shallowsoul wrote:

Basically the BBEG, ogre fighter, sundered the barbarians magical greatsword and now the player is pissed to the point of rage quitting. We all explained that sundering is a legit rule but he wouldn't here of it. He's angry at the DM for pulling a "cheap" move as he calls it. The DM did explain that the game will be played by the rules as written but the player just won't listen.

Ever have this in your game?

A little more context would help.

A factor is how long has the barb had this weapon? Most people do get rustled jimmies if you smash the toy you just gave them.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

What I dislike is the sense of entitlement that a lot of players have nowadays. Most of the the time people play in Golarion, it's a high fantasy setting (not as high as say Forgotten Realms), but things are pretty easily replaceable or fixable.

The DM does NOT owe anyone an explanation for how he runs his games (least of all us on the forums). He ran the encounter where his ogre attempts to sunder weapons as part of his fighting style. That's good enough for me and should be good enough for the rest of you guys.

The player needs to get over himself and use his imagination (gee this is a game of imagination!) to overcome this small obstacle. He will no doubt get a better weapon soon as it is. Play the game, don't take things so seriously, and have fun with what your PC has, not what it doesn't have at the moment.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

11 people marked this as a favorite.
DrDeth wrote:
It is a cheap move. I mean- why would the BBEG sunder the BBN’s weapon, since the BBEG expects to win, and thus he’s breaking his own loot?

In this case, what use does an Ogre have for a medium-sized weapon? Back-scratcher maybe. It's not like it can sell it.

Star Voter 2015

9 people marked this as a favorite.

I say sunder away. It's a legal tactic and one that is very smart when standing toe-to-toe with a barbarian. I feel like I've read a lot of these threads lately and I just don't get it.

In the last 2 games that I've played:

1. The ranger lost both of his magical weapons.
2. The barbarian lost the arm that was holding his adamantium club.
3. The wizard was hit with a finger of death and rolled a one on the save.
4. The inquisitor was struck blind.
5. The druid lost his pet tiger to a harm spell.
6. The bard back talked to a demi-god and was severely punished.
7. The ranger lost 3 points of dex.

We all walked away saying: "Wow. That was awesome! I can't believe that happened." Because those are the risks you take when you fight Big Bad Evil Guys.

Star Voter 2015

3 people marked this as a favorite.
DrDeth wrote:

It is a cheap move. I mean- why would the BBEG sunder the BBN’s weapon, since the BBEG expects to win, and thus he’s breaking his own loot?

Pc’s rarely sunder the Bad guys stuff for that very reason.

Now sure, if it’s a Ogre-bane weapon, the equivalent of “Biter” or “beater”, known and hated by all Ogre-kind, then that’s just good RPing.

Stuff is both a reward for the PC and a reward for the player for having done well. This is why we no longer rain experience points/levels by undead touch.

I have been playing with a magic fearing barbarian that has sundered almost every magical weapon that every BBEG has wielded. It's something of a joke in the group now. We'd get rid of him but he's really good at killing stuff.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, I have, if he is going to quit over a single and replacable/fixable magic item, it might be best to let him go.


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Mage Evolving wrote:

I say sunder away. It's a legal tactic and one that is very smart when standing toe-to-toe with a barbarian. I feel like I've read a lot of these threads lately and I just don't get it.

In the last 2 games that I've played:

1. The ranger lost both of his magical weapons.
2. The barbarian lost the arm that was holding his adamantium club.
3. The wizard was hit with a finger of death and rolled a one on the save.
4. The inquisitor was struck blind.
5. The druid lost his pet tiger to a harm spell.
6. The bard back talked to a demi-god and was severely punished.
7. The ranger lost 3 points of dex.

We all walked away saying: "Wow. That was awesome! I can't believe that happened." Because those are the risks you take when you fight Big Bad Evil Guys.

I just have to say I love your game and I'm not even in it! A game w/o danger isn't any fun. I personally love a challenge and fighting for our lives. TTRPG's shouldn't be a cake-walk, they should be gritty and have some sense of cause and effect. If you want something easy go play a video game where you can adjust the settings to newbie and restart the challenges. PC's shouldn't walk around thinking they are going to breeze through every conflict, because they can and do occasionally bite off more than they can chew.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmm, I had a Fighter quit my group just last night because I had an Ogre who loved breaking his opponents gear simply for the fact he likes hearing the breaking sound.

He knew I don't pull punches and that I create the opponents personalities based on themes.

So all I have to say to be like that is: "Nut up or Shut Up." Which ironically is what his girlfriend told him when he threw a fit because she didn't want to leave.

Silver Crusade

11 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Plus, hello? Your characters and the BBEG are fighting for their lives...they aren't thinking about loot. Not sundering stuff because you want it later is meta-gaming of the worst kind - thinking you are in a game instead of a desperate battle in which you could die. The characters and your opponents should be doing every thing they can to make sure they live and the other dies, including sundering or any other nasty trick they can think of.


Sad that this question had to be asked.
Find a new player?


Bad Sintax wrote:
Plus, hello? Your characters and the BBEG are fighting for their lives...they aren't thinking about loot. Not sundering stuff because you want it later is meta-gaming of the worst kind - thinking you are in a game instead of a desperate battle in which you could die. The characters and your opponents should be doing every thing they can to make sure they live and the other dies, including sundering or any other nasty trick they can think of.

How is sundering the weapon gonna help? You just used up your attack to sunder. Now your foe draws another weapon , and still can attack.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:
Bad Sintax wrote:
Plus, hello? Your characters and the BBEG are fighting for their lives...they aren't thinking about loot. Not sundering stuff because you want it later is meta-gaming of the worst kind - thinking you are in a game instead of a desperate battle in which you could die. The characters and your opponents should be doing every thing they can to make sure they live and the other dies, including sundering or any other nasty trick they can think of.
How is sundering the weapon gonna help? You just used up your attack to sunder. Now your foe draws another weapon , and still can attack.

If the guy seemed awfully proficient with his giant greatsword, I'm gonna take a bet that the little dagger at his belt doesn't hurt as much.

Also, this.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Mergy wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Bad Sintax wrote:
Plus, hello? Your characters and the BBEG are fighting for their lives...they aren't thinking about loot. Not sundering stuff because you want it later is meta-gaming of the worst kind - thinking you are in a game instead of a desperate battle in which you could die. The characters and your opponents should be doing every thing they can to make sure they live and the other dies, including sundering or any other nasty trick they can think of.
How is sundering the weapon gonna help? You just used up your attack to sunder. Now your foe draws another weapon , and still can attack.

If the guy seemed awfully proficient with his giant greatsword, I'm gonna take a bet that the little dagger at his belt doesn't hurt as much.

Also, this.

Or even better, you can just break that too. Eventually the guy's gonna run out of weapons. Then you can break his armor. Or his fists. Or just break him.

Some BBEGs like toying with their opponents.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Another great example of player entitlement. Basically, all you can do is tell him to suck it up and be mature about it.

I hate players who complain or act pissy when bad things happen to them at all.

Liberty's Edge

Mage Evolving wrote:

I say sunder away. It's a legal tactic and one that is very smart when standing toe-to-toe with a barbarian. I feel like I've read a lot of these threads lately and I just don't get it.

In the last 2 games that I've played:

1. The ranger lost both of his magical weapons.
2. The barbarian lost the arm that was holding his adamantium club.
3. The wizard was hit with a finger of death and rolled a one on the save.
4. The inquisitor was struck blind.
5. The druid lost his pet tiger to a harm spell.
6. The bard back talked to a demi-god and was severely punished.
7. The ranger lost 3 points of dex.

We all walked away saying: "Wow. That was awesome! I can't believe that happened." Because those are the risks you take when you fight Big Bad Evil Guys.

I thought Harm couldn't reduce a creature below 1 hit point...

However it sounds like a blast to me!


Maccabee wrote:

Would you say that the Ogre sundered as part of his attacks or as a standard action???

*duck and cover*

ROFLMAO


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Sunder his character sheet.


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Bad Sintax wrote:
Plus, hello? Your characters and the BBEG are fighting for their lives...they aren't thinking about loot. Not sundering stuff because you want it later is meta-gaming of the worst kind - thinking you are in a game instead of a desperate battle in which you could die. The characters and your opponents should be doing every thing they can to make sure they live and the other dies, including sundering or any other nasty trick they can think of.

Though it would be funny to roleplay an encounter in which your character really wants the bad guy's magic armor.

"No, guys! Aim for the feet! The feet! Augh!"

EDIT: Or, alternatively, I remember a Weregeek comic where a guy didn't want his own armor damaged, and begged his foes to aim for his head.


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Mergy wrote:

If the guy seemed awfully proficient with his giant greatsword, I'm gonna take a bet that the little dagger at his belt doesn't hurt as much.

Also, this.

This also proves that breaking the martial guys weapon sometimes is a bad idea


OP wrote:
....sundered the barbarians magical greatsword and now the player is pissed to the point of rage quitting.

Let him.

OP wrote:
We all explained that sundering is a legit rule but he wouldn't here of it.

So... a temper tantrum.

OP wrote:
He's angry at the DM for pulling a "cheap" move as he calls it.

'Cheap' = By-the-rules-but-I-resent-it... LOL.

Seriously, this player needs to nut up, be an adult, or go.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ahh, the memories.

That's a photo illustration from the game I run. The dwarf fighter's player actually did pack up his books and leave moments after his +1 full plate was piffed by that enormous rust monster. He had a mild breakdown, then told us his character was running away and abandoning the party in order to save his dwarven warpike from becoming dessert.

The party's cleric (shown here being enveloped by a black pudding for the second time in his career) lost his +2 unholy heavy mace to that rust monster and later had just about every piece of equipment he owned destroyed by the first black pudding the party ran into. Didn't faze him.

Some players just handle it better than others and gaming experience doesn't seem to matter. The fighter's player has been playing alot longer than the cleric's player, but he still freaked out. Anyone else notice this behavior seems more common with power gamers and munchkins? The fighter's player had built his character completely around the idea of having the highest AC in the party and dealing the most damage so the idea of losing his gear terrified and enraged him. The cleric, on the other hand, wasn't even close to optimized, and the player seemed to be having a lot more fun.


Velcro Zipper wrote:

Ahh, the memories.

That's a photo illustration from the game I run. The dwarf fighter's player actually did pack up his books and leave moments after his +1 full plate was piffed by that enormous rust monster. He had a mild breakdown, then told us his character was running away and abandoning the party in order to save his dwarven warpike from becoming dessert.

The party's cleric (shown here being enveloped by a black pudding for the second time in his career) lost his +2 unholy heavy mace to that rust monster and later had just about every piece of equipment he owned destroyed by the first black pudding the party ran into. Didn't faze him.

Some players just handle it better than others and gaming experience doesn't seem to matter. The fighter's player has been playing alot longer than the cleric's player, but he still freaked out. Anyone else notice this behavior seems more common with power gamers and munchkins? The fighter's player had built his character completely around the idea of having the highest AC in the party and dealing the most damage so the idea of losing his gear terrified and enraged him. The cleric, on the other hand, wasn't even close to optimized, and the player seemed to be having a lot more fun.

Well, martial classes do tend to be quite attached to their gear due to it being one of the few gap closers between them and the prime casters.

If you take all their armor, weapons, and gear away caster still have their spells to fall back on, without gear and items all the martial's have left are fists.

I can understand why that particular fighter WAS terrified of losing his armor, without it he's reduced to next-to-useless, compared to said example cleric. Even without optimization he STILL has the all powerful prime caster spell-list


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shallowsoul wrote:

Basically the BBEG, ogre fighter, sundered the barbarians magical greatsword and now the player is pissed to the point of rage quitting. We all explained that sundering is a legit rule but he wouldn't here of it. He's angry at the DM for pulling a "cheap" move as he calls it. The DM did explain that the game will be played by the rules as written but the player just won't listen.

Ever have this in your game?

Nope. Not over something as trivial as a magic item being destroyed.

In a high level game I ran I had a pair of Nightwalkers shatter the weapons of *both* front line warriors in the same round (it kind of what nightwalkers are good at). The party's response?

The wizard casts Time Stop - 2 Limited Wishes later (and down 5000XP) and she hands the two fighters their weapons back. i was gobsmacked. The fighters never even whined (and they had no idea the wizard was about to or even *could* do this) they just reached for back up weapons and started converting their attack bonuses.

i love having mature players.

Star Voter 2013

I personally have not used Sunder yet, but I will be using it next session with a captured Fire Giant whose only goal is escape.

I take it your Barbarian friend says that monsters that don't stand there and let him beat on them are cheating. Because, you know, monsters with intelligence could never actually want to survive or anything. I'm betting he gets angry if GM's play their intelligent monsters intelligently.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I had a player quit because one of the other PCs (a paladin) threw his super powerful evil sword into the elemental plane of water, never to be seen again. Even though when that player used the sword it would attack any teammate he was adjacent to (home-brew). It would also heal him of half the damage he dealt (it was Stormbringer, basically), including against his teammates. ("oops," was his typical response.)

He rage-quit and said, "I'm completely worthless now! I don't have any healing!" The rest of us tried to tell him that most fighters don't have any healing, but he wouldn't have it.

I even gave him 150K the next session to spend on a book legal weapon, but that ended up being his last session. He just missed that damn sword too much.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

@DeusTerran - I get that but, in this case, that argument would hold alot more water with me if there hadn't been another heavily armored fighter and a dual-sword wielding ranger in a +1 chain shirt standing right next to him swinging makeshift clubs and staves at the beast. Where the other two players were able to adapt to the situation and have fun with the challenge, the power gamer player completely froze because he was too worried about becoming sub-optimal.

I think there's just something about that gaming style that takes the player out of the story. The player in question constantly thought in metagame terms and saw everything as a series of bonuses and penalties. It wasn't about being a hero and fighting monsters to him; it was about adding numbers. Taking away his armor was too big a penalty for him to take despite the fact his armor could be easily replaced and there were other means of fighting the rust monster that wouldn't require his warpike.

I know not all power gamers are created equal. Some are way more mature than others and love to actually RP while they're kicking butt. It's just I see more power gamers freak out and leave the table over percieved weakness or "cheap" DM shenanigans than any other type of player.


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Heh, anyone here old enough to recall 1st edition Barbarians from Unearthed Arcana, which got xp for destroying magic items? Good times. Good times.

Star Voter 2013

Losobal wrote:
Heh, anyone here old enough to recall 1st edition Barbarians from Unearthed Arcana, which got xp for destroying magic items? Good times. Good times.

My friend and GM has played since then. He said that when they were younger, they use to do everything possible to knock out the Barbarian before the fight was over, so they could loot the bodies before the Barbarian wanted to earn XP.

Either that, or they'd kill the Barbarian and then look at the Barbarian player and say, "Dafuq is wrong with you? Those are my shinies!"


Games should be fun. Sunder isn't.

You guys know what roguelikes are, right? Procedural dungeon crawls with permanent death.

One of the nastiest roguelikes for traps was ToME 2.x. You know what the most complained about traps were? Not the ones that killed you or summoned hordes of terrible monsters that killed you. Not even the one that drained all your stats so that you had to spend hours looking in shops to find restore potions if you didn't want to die horribly to some minor monster. The one that destroyed your armor, the one that destroyed your weapon, and the ones that changed your (completely game mechanics free) gender.

Something that can piss off people more than losing their whole character in a roguelike is probably not going to suddenly be fun with a revolving door on the afterlife and actual roleplayed characters who can become attached to prized possessions. Like a sword or breastplate that has saved their lives multiple times for example.

Unless a player has some game breaking equipment combo and sunder is the only weakness it's probably best to forget the mechanic exists unless you're in a setting where all magic items are generic mass produced garbage with no sentimental value to anyone.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:
Games should be fun. Sunder isn't.

So, the rules for sundering and such are there just for the players to use (and not the GM)? Got it...

Also, traps that sunder and creatures like rust monsters are included in the rule books just for the benefit of Game Masters to read for giggles only? Got it...

I am truly baffled by the modern gamer's mentality...

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Check the sunder rules. Odds are the GM was wrong. Sunder got nerfed hard regarding magic items.


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shallowsoul wrote:
It was more okay to die than to lose his sword.

Yes. In life, many people feel it is better to start over with a new thing, than to carry on with something they consider sullied or ruined.

The player probably had a very definite idea of his character in his mind, and in this case, that included the sword.

I bet you have also, at some point in your life, felt like something was ruined for you, for whatever reason. Hopefully, when it happened to you, nobody went online to a popular forum and made light of it and tried to gather consensus as to how big a dummy you were.

Bad GM move. Not in using a tactic. Tactics are just tools. But in not knowing his players, and not understand the depth of connection this player had with the image of his character, or understanding the player's nature, he has revealed that not a lot of thought goes into his style. Part of being a GM is knowing your players, and knowing who can take what kind and what level of intrusion into their own self-image and own world concept.

I am right.

You all will rage at me. It will be like wind howling at the mountain. I will still be right.

Guy has a right to be upset, to a certain degree. OP is not a hero for broadcasting it here; he ought to be helping the group work it out if it means so much to him. GM is a tactic monkey but a bad manager of people.

I.
Am.
Right.

Live with it.

Star Voter 2013

ciretose wrote:
Check the sunder rules. Odds are the GM was wrong. Sunder got nerfed hard regarding magic items.
Sunder wrote:

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.

Actually, if I recall, Sunder got beefed regarding magic items. It used to be that you couldn't damage an item at all if you didn't have an equivalent enhancement bonus. Now it just improves hardness and HP. Also, in 3.5 you couldn't sunder armor worn by a creature. Now you can break that turtle out of his shell and get to the squishy bits.

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