Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

Flurry of blows with 2x strength bonus to damage?


Rules Questions


Flurry of blows, a full attack action, states that all attacks add your strength bonus to damage.

Backswing, the 7th level power gained by the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, states:

"At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first."

Which one wins? I don't think it would be broken if the latter ability won, but it might actually make it a viable build. If one that takes 8 levels to actually work.


If your question is if they work together, then no.

Backswing require a two-handed weapon.


There are two-handed monk weapons.


Flurry works like Two-Weapon Fighting. So how could you only use a two-handed weapon?


You can certainly flurry with a 2-handed weapon (e.g. a 7-branched sword from Ultimate Equipment).

I think it's probably against the spirit of the flurry of blows rules where it says that you always get 1x your Str bonus, no matter how many hands you're holding your weapon in.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Flurry works like Two-Weapon Fighting. So how could you only use a two-handed weapon?

wielding the TH weapon with the two hands and kicking.


Sansetsukon, for example, is a Two-Handed melee weapon that can be used for flurry of blows. This is stated outright.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Flurry works like Two-Weapon Fighting. So how could you only use a two-handed weapon?

~Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes~

Cheliax

hogarth wrote:
I think it's probably against the spirit of the flurry of blows rules where it says that you always get 1x your Str bonus, no matter how many hands you're holding your weapon in.

I strongly believe this to be the case.


hogarth wrote:
I think it's probably against the spirit of the flurry of blows rules where it says that you always get 1x your Str bonus, no matter how many hands you're holding your weapon in.

Maybe, but it would seem to be that is the base rule, and abilities gained through class features can always override base rules.


Yar.

Brain in a Jar wrote:
Flurry works like Two-Weapon Fighting. So how could you only use a two-handed weapon?

... before the unofficial retracted "clarification" that only exists as a post in the archives of these forums, FoB as written works "as if" using TWF, but still being it's own unique thing. Before that "clarification", many people (including many content creators for Paizo) interpreted that you CAN FoB while wilding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon held with both hands and only a single weapon. Every monk stat block published (that I know of) does single-weapon FoB.

Also: Sohei monks can FoB with any weapon they have Weapon Training (as their own class feature) in, which can indeed include two-handed weapons.

Also also: what other's have already said. ^_^

edit: added a bit.

~P


I understand that you can flurry with a two-handed weapon and unarmed strike.

I never said you can't use a two-handed weapon.

It just seems like you need to use a two-handed weapon (only) for backswing.


I think the Fighter/monk should be able to add dobule of his damage with his two handed weapon. I do not know if it is RAW though.


the quarterstaff is a 2 handed weapon, able to do both main and offhand attacks, i don't see why it wouldn't qualify for backswing, apparently for both ends if using monk flurry, albeit if you used regular 2wf that wouldn't be the case since offhand is defined as 'only' applying 1/2 STR bonus. (that gets murky)

apart from quarterstaff, just using another monk weapon with 2 hands,
it seems you could use it the same way you could use 2wf with a greatsword and kicks/headbutts?
if you have extra arms, you could potentially 2wf with 2 greatswords (4 arms), or have an extra arm/fist available (3 arms).

but still, assuming a monk/2hFighter multiclass that just has 2 arms,
you can make normal iterative attacks with a 2handed weapon, but the bonus attacks are 'like 2wf' and thus distinct weapons, so will probably be made with UAS kicks and not benefit from backswing. so not really different than the pure 2hFighter also taking improved UAS, 2wf, and doubleslice (which increases off-hand attack to 1x STR).

seriously though, the status of monk flurry is pretty much in the air.
i expect errata in the next Core Rulebook printing.
so whatever you can say now with the current RAW is likely to be made invalid.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
It just seems like you need to use a two-handed weapon (only) for backswing.

You're allowed under the flurry rules to use only your two-handed Monk weapon. In the description of flurry of blows, you can do nothing but strikes with your weapon as your flurry. You don't *have* to put unarmed attacks in there, you're just allowed to.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

I understand that you can flurry with a two-handed weapon and unarmed strike.

I never said you can't use a two-handed weapon.

It just seems like you need to use a two-handed weapon (only) for backswing.

Seems to me what it would do is be something like THW/US/THW, with a Str modifier on damage being 2/1/2.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

I'm not touching specific Flurry rules because jesus christ who knows any more.

FoB may as well be called "F$&* it, I'm houseruling this" at this point.


Your monk fists can be two-handed weapons, you just have to hold the fist of the other hand that you're punching with.. :D


For one, 7th level power Backswing for the Two Handed fighter archetype adds 2X his strength score (instead of 1.5) to all the attacks with the weapon in a full round AFTER THE FIRST So your first (and notably best to-hit roll) is going to be weaker.

Second, Flurry is a full attack option for monks so that their full strength will be applied to their offhand and main hand (fists, and weapons)

So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does. HOWEVER it does stack in the way that you do all your main-hand swings with the 2 handed weapon and then do all the off-hand attacks with knees, feet, head and elbows at full strength bonus instead of none/half that most other two weapon fighters do.


Rudy2 wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
It just seems like you need to use a two-handed weapon (only) for backswing.
You're allowed under the flurry rules to use only your two-handed Monk weapon. In the description of flurry of blows, you can do nothing but strikes with your weapon as your flurry. You don't *have* to put unarmed attacks in there, you're just allowed to.

Oh. You think using flurry with a single weapon is correct.

I only asked because it wouldn't be good normally. You would only get half you attacks to backswing for x2, since you would two-hand one weapon and use kicks for the other attacks. I always assume Flurry to be exactly like two-weapon fighting since i started playing Pathfinder.


DeusTerran wrote:
So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does.

You lost me here. Why would that mean they don't stack?


DeusTerran wrote:

For one, 7th level power Backswing for the Two Handed fighter archetype adds 2X his strength score (instead of 1.5) to all the attacks with the weapon in a full round AFTER THE FIRST So your first (and notably best to-hit roll) is going to be weaker.

Second, Flurry is a full attack option for monks so that their full strength will be applied to their offhand and main hand (fists, and weapons)

So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does. HOWEVER it does stack in the way that you do all your main-hand swings with the 2 handed weapon and then do all the off-hand attacks with knees, feet, head and elbows at full strength bonus instead of none/half that most other two weapon fighters do.

What if the first hit is with a unarmed strike?


Brain in a Jar wrote:

Oh. You think using flurry with a single weapon is correct.

I only asked because it wouldn't be good normally. You would only get half you attacks to backswing for x2, since you would two-hand one weapon and use kicks for the other attacks. I always assume Flurry to be exactly like two-weapon fighting since i started playing Pathfinder.

Ah. I didn't realize it was a contentious issue, to be honest. I just took "..using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon.." literally.


Rudy2 wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Oh. You think using flurry with a single weapon is correct.

I only asked because it wouldn't be good normally. You would only get half you attacks to backswing for x2, since you would two-hand one weapon and use kicks for the other attacks. I always assume Flurry to be exactly like two-weapon fighting since i started playing Pathfinder.

Ah. I didn't realize it was a contentious issue, to be honest. I just took "..using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon.." literally.

Where i took " as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" literally.

But back to your original question.

Backswing would work with Flurry either way. In your version of Flurry you would get x2 for each attack with a two-handed Monk weapon and in my version of Flurry you would get x2 only when actually swinging the two-handed monk weapon.


Nicos wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:

For one, 7th level power Backswing for the Two Handed fighter archetype adds 2X his strength score (instead of 1.5) to all the attacks with the weapon in a full round AFTER THE FIRST So your first (and notably best to-hit roll) is going to be weaker.

Second, Flurry is a full attack option for monks so that their full strength will be applied to their offhand and main hand (fists, and weapons)

So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does. HOWEVER it does stack in the way that you do all your main-hand swings with the 2 handed weapon and then do all the off-hand attacks with knees, feet, head and elbows at full strength bonus instead of none/half that most other two weapon fighters do.

What if the first hit is with a unarmed strike?

hold on let me copypasta;

Backswing (Ex)

At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.

In other words if you want this to work, all your main hand attacks must be the two handed (because your legs and elbows are your off-hand) and the first attack is at 1.5X, while the rest are at 2X

Rudy2 wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:
So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does.
You lost me here. Why would that mean they don't stack?

Because the monks ability is buffing up the strength penalties of two weapon fighting to baseline (full strength mainhand half/no-strength offhand to full and full) wielding a two hander goes from full to 1.5 and backswing brings it up to 2X after the first swing.


DeusTerran wrote:
Nicos wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:

For one, 7th level power Backswing for the Two Handed fighter archetype adds 2X his strength score (instead of 1.5) to all the attacks with the weapon in a full round AFTER THE FIRST So your first (and notably best to-hit roll) is going to be weaker.

Second, Flurry is a full attack option for monks so that their full strength will be applied to their offhand and main hand (fists, and weapons)

So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does. HOWEVER it does stack in the way that you do all your main-hand swings with the 2 handed weapon and then do all the off-hand attacks with knees, feet, head and elbows at full strength bonus instead of none/half that most other two weapon fighters do.

What if the first hit is with a unarmed strike?

hold on let me copypasta;

Backswing (Ex)

At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.

In other words if you want this to work, all your main hand attacks must be the two handed (because your legs and elbows are your off-hand) and the first attack is at 1.5X, while the rest are at 2X

Note that the text do not ay "when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a only two-handed weapon"

so your conclusion do not strictly follows.


Also DeusTerran you kinda confused about how STR interacts with Flurry.

"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."

You never get 1.5 STR when using Flurry. Unless an ability or feat trumps it.

Such as Dragon Style or Backswing.


Brain: Cool, thanks.

DeusTerran: Backswing applies when you make a full attack with a two handed weapon, though. Flurry of blows with, say, a Sansetsukon, is a full attack with a two handed weapon.


Yar.

Yes, this has been/is a bit of a hot topic: monks and FoB and how it works.

I'm in the camp that believes that the combination of "as if" and "any combination" in the FoB text mean that FoB - while using a similar mechanic (-2 to hit) as TWF, can be made with "any combination" of attacks, of which having every attack come from the same weapon is a valid combination.

While many people took "as if" to mean "you are TWFing exactly but with some exceptions", many people (including some content developers) also took it as I do (mentioned above) as shown by published monk stat blocks.

So, pre-"clarification" (which as JB stated shortly after that post is no longer a clarification, but an issue that needs time and careful consideration to deal with), as written and interpreted by many, including Rudy2 it would seem, Two-Handed/single weapon FoB is viable and legal.

~P

Cheliax

DeusTerran wrote:
Nicos wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:

For one, 7th level power Backswing for the Two Handed fighter archetype adds 2X his strength score (instead of 1.5) to all the attacks with the weapon in a full round AFTER THE FIRST So your first (and notably best to-hit roll) is going to be weaker.

Second, Flurry is a full attack option for monks so that their full strength will be applied to their offhand and main hand (fists, and weapons)

So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does. HOWEVER it does stack in the way that you do all your main-hand swings with the 2 handed weapon and then do all the off-hand attacks with knees, feet, head and elbows at full strength bonus instead of none/half that most other two weapon fighters do.

What if the first hit is with a unarmed strike?

hold on let me copypasta;

Backswing (Ex)

At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.

In other words if you want this to work, all your main hand attacks must be the two handed (because your legs and elbows are your off-hand) and the first attack is at 1.5X, while the rest are at 2X

Rudy2 wrote:
DeusTerran wrote:
So no they don't really stack on the weapon, because Backswing is improving beyond what the monks flurry does.
You lost me here. Why would that mean they don't stack?
Because the monks ability is buffing up the strength penalties of two weapon fighting to baseline (full strength mainhand half/no-strength offhand to full and full) wielding a two hander goes from full to 1.5 and backswing brings it up to 2X after the first swing.

For the record, I'm pretty sure there's an earlier Two Handed Fighter archetype ability that makes you first attack have 2x Str to damage, too.


honestly, even besides the flurry issue, i'm unclear about backswing.
it's current RAW isn't clear (some have asked if this is 'in addition' on top of normal 1.5xSTR damage, which paizo said 'no, it's replacing that' which isn't stated in RAW). but if you read backswing as 'instead of 1.5x STR on two handed weapons (after the first), use 2x', then that wouldn't apply to Flurry because all flurry attacks are 1x STR, so there is no 1.5x attack to replace/upgrade.
alternately (imagining various wordings to achieve what Paizo has described for intent of backswing), backswing could be applying an additional 0.5xSTR damage to 2-handed attacks after the first (after the first 2 handed attack, BTW), which WOULD apply to any applicable 2handed attacks during a Flurry Full Attack, but they would be 1.5x (1x+0.5x) not 2x. that 2nd possibility would also upgrade Light Weapons held in 2hands, or weapons that don't normally benefit from 2handed dmg bonus like Rapiers. so it kind of depends how Paizo errata's backswing. (i would bet the 1st method, which means no Flurry compatability)

EDIT: i 'feel' that backswing is meant to apply to all 2-handed weapon attacks after the first 2-handed weapon attack, but that isn't clear per RAW. whether within a flurry/2wf scenario, or somebody making a bite attack on top of iteratives, if some other (non-2handed) attack is made first, it's plausible that ALL 2-handed attacks would thus benefit, albeit i don't believe that's the intent.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
DeusTerran wrote:


In other words if you want this to work, all your main hand attacks must be the two handed (because your legs and elbows are your off-hand) and the first attack is at 1.5X, while the rest are at 2X

No, the first attack would be at 1x and the rest would be at 2x even by the most liberal reading of the rules. Monk's never get 1.5x when flurrying, even when using a two-handed weapon. Nothing about Backswing would override that normal rule for the first hit.


Seranov wrote:
For the record, I'm pretty sure there's an earlier Two Handed Fighter archetype ability that makes you first attack have 2x Str to damage, too.

Overhand Chop (Ex)

At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.

It does and it doesn't


Seranov wrote:
For the record, I'm pretty sure there's an earlier Two Handed Fighter archetype ability that makes you first attack have 2x Str to damage, too.

Yeah, Over-Hand Chop, but it doesn't apply to Full Attacks, the only case where Backswing applies.

So the abilities will never apply at the same time.

Cheliax

Huh. Fair enough.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Flurry of blows with 2x strength bonus to damage? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.