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The Illusion of Invincibility


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Nether wrote:

Just to add, this debate forgets that there is a mechanical system involved that very poorly represents anything of a smoother realism.

HP, AC, ext really take things out of immersion, as just above me he mentions how a high lvl barb can take a pile a great axe chops to the gut for breakfast, and continue on, or someone jumping from crazy heights just because they can grunt and roll with it makes noo sense. Even many of the fantasy novels that have made dnd, they do not cater to these crazy mechanics that destroy the realism we know, or somewhat close to.

So how characters perceive things in the game compared to how players perceive them in the real world also makes a big difference in perspective.

Also when a player ignores an opponent, it isn~t like he is just casually walking away from him or not paying attention to him anymore, he is combat ready and actively trying to avoid damage.

I basically realized a while back HP has no choice but to represent an actual physical endurance other than merely dodging, because dodging and/or lucky misses only go just so far. Hp represents the durability and fortitude of things that frankly cannot dodge things, and you can survive blasts of elemental damage that span a 60 ft. long cone of fire in an instant that can slag a suit of full plate armor to mush in 3 seconds flat.

At some point it's not "super dodgy power" it's "take it like an ironman power". When a dragon, by the rules (see snatch feat) can bite you, pin you in its mouth, and then unleash a blast of hellfire breath while you are pinned in its mouth so tightly that it denies you a Reflex save against the blast to get out of the way, and that blast can completely obliterate a building to tiny flecks of cinders and ash, or melt a full suit of full plate into a puddle in 3 seconds, or melt through stone blocks, then it has to be something more than just being lucky. It can include being lucky, but are more than human at some level.

In a fantasy world, this makes some sense. What you are is less important than who you are. Your experiences, your knowledge, it shapes you in ways that make you into something more. At its core, this game takes people who are relatively normal and shows that with teamwork, practice, and bravery you can achieve the impossible.

Frankly no one in reality - our reality - could ever survive the things that high level D&D characters do. It's just outright impossible. Nothing we have in the world, even including all our modern technology and mastery of warfare, armors, tanks, nuclear bombs, or any of the sort could stop the wrath of a single 20th level wizard (I'm not joking either, a single 20th level wizard could take over our whole freaking world in a week or two and announce himself the king of everything and nobody would be able to do a damned thing about it). Trying to constrain heroes in the D&D-reality with people in our reality is not fair.

If you want a fantasy that is much closer to our reality, then variants like E6, or even E3 would be more respectable. Or mix E6 with the Vitality / Wound point system where you have a pool of HP that is your actual endurance (generally equal to your Constitution plus feats) and your Vitality points (magic dodgey-stats that some say HP represents). However you need to accept that the kind of things that D&D is famous for you just cannot do in this sort of game. There will be no pit fiend battles in this sort of game where you try to shackle fantasy heroes to the limits of our own reality.

D&D is a game where heroes can rise to face things of godlike proportions. Seriously, look at the statistics of a high level wizard, or a pit fiend, or a solar. These are things capable of replicating miracles from the Kings James Bible. Some of them without even being 20th level (a wizard can make people out of dirt to populate a new infinitely expanding plane much earlier than 20th).

I think one of the most amusing and fulfilling feelings I ever had when playing D&D was when our group was getting ready to move into epic levels and I realized my half-fiend (uncustomary benefit to the PC via story arch) tiefling (yeah basically just an evolved tiefling) conjurer could fight an army of mundane people without resorting to using her magic. It was at that moment I felt pretty darn epic. She surely couldn't melee with any martial near her level range, but against the hordes of 1st level warriors of an army with a mundane weapons she was effectively untouchable (even the 5% of attacks that got through wouldn't penetrate her DR, her +10 BAB and decent physical stats meant she could just claw enemies apart or beat them down with her staff).

It really all comes down to scale and perception. If your perception is that D&D heroes are normal humans then your scale is going to be off. If your perception is that they become something more, then you'll find everything matches up. It's also one of the reasons why they are special in the world. They aren't the guys who "are lucky enough to survive". The 10th level barbarian is the guy who other lesser warriors tell stories about.

"And so there we were, scattered and routed! This giant lizard-thing crashing from the jungle and biting all our people in half! We didn't know what to do. Then came in Kurgan Blackblood of Hornestein. While we were all running for our lives he was charging the damned thing! Like he was daring it to come at him. It roared at him and I swear to the gods he roared right back at it and for a moment I thought the thing was going to cower down!

So then, we all stopped and turned to look. The thing looked like it was going to back down but then got stubborn and lunged at Kurgan. The crazy fool practically leaped into the things mouth and was swallowed whole! We were all about to begin running again when the beast started wailing like it was dying. I mean the most awful blood curdling wailing you could imagine. That's when it started expelling blood by the gallons from its mouth. Enough to fill every keg of ale in this alehouse man, and then some!

So then the creature flops down to the ground convulsing. We didn't know what had happened. For a moment we thought that the gods themselves had just struck this monster to the ground for its gluttony, but nay. Suddenly from within the beast, explodes Kurgan from its innards, holding the creatures' giant heart betwixt his hands, still convulsing! Our reaction was a mixture of cheering and dumbfounded awe. *slurps his beer* It t'was the damndest thing I'd ever seen and may yet ever seen, but we'll see what Kurgan does for us tomorrow."

Of course, what happened here is the people were on an expedition in a jungle filled with Dinosaurs. A t-rex comes running out and starts nomming on all the little warriors. The barbarian runs up and Intimidates the critter (-2 to all checks). The T-Rex bites him, and then swallows him whole. From inside the barbarian just begins tearing him apart with full-power attack strikes vs his innard AC which is quite low, until the beastie is dead from the spicey meatball called Kurgan the 10th level barbarian.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I do love some of the prose that gets posted around here.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I do love some of the prose that gets posted around here.

Prose?


Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I do love some of the prose that gets posted around here.
Prose?

Um, yes. Prose is basically any form of writing that isn't poetry. It as much as says it right there in the definition.


Ravingdork wrote:
Take a wizard with shield and mage armor for example (or more powerful protections if you wish). If a warrior attacked him five times to no avail (failing to hit the AC) then said warrior may well think the wizard's magic insurmountable.

Except he is an expert swordsman, he knows when he poorly timed his attacks ... or in other words, you have a pretty good idea of the rolls you make.

Quote:
If an illusionist pumps his save DCs and tricks his enemies into believing a project image spell is actually him, and that he is an invincible god that cannot be harmed by "mere mortals." Then what is to keep his enemies from being utterly convinced short of successful saves or great foreknowledge of magic (such as ranks in Spellcraft and/or Knowledge: Arcana)?

Except the first time a sword connect they feel it's unreal ... if you were telekinetically animating a puppet it could work.

Quote:
A barbarian with two-hundred hit points takes multiple successive hits from a battleaxe and doesn't even flinch. What is the wielder of the battleaxe supposed to think?

"That guy is strong, but I could do that too" (because generally your melee opponents have quite a few HP as well).

PS. personally I think a hit is a hit and with a critical hit you can see bone beneath the wound ... everyone keeps on fighting because D&D is a world filled with bad asses, those pussies which can't even take a single slash live in the real world ...

Shadow Lodge

WORDS WORDS WORDS


I think this thread is a better thought for GMs than PCs. I love having my critters fall back, regroup, run off at the first hit for reinforcements, surrender, try to talk their way out of it, etc. Fighting to the death is for mindless undead.

As to the wizard example, the fighter in me would go straight for the grapple. Don't think it's realistic? Remember how Conan did in the witch near the beginning of the first original movie? My last archer ranger flying tackled a wyrmling dragon at low level after his arrows all missed. Its a valid strategy.


Rynjin wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I do love some of the prose that gets posted around here.
Prose?
Um, yes. Prose is basically any form of writing that isn't poetry. It as much as says it right there in the definition.

I was just curious if he meant prose or if it was a typo. Prose isn't a word I see many people use often (kind of like frabjous which is a word I use sometimes but even fire-fox doesn't know that word), so I was curious. :)

@TOZ: If that was a remark having anything to do with my post, thanks and I hope to provide entertainment when possible. ^-^


Ashiel wrote:

I was just curious if he meant prose or if it was a typo. Prose isn't a word I see many people use often (kind of like frabjous which is a word I use sometimes but even fire-fox doesn't know that word), so I was curious. :)

@TOZ: If that was a remark having anything to do with my post, thanks and I hope to provide entertainment when possible. ^-^

Ah. Understood.

I didn't know frabjous was a real word though until you mentioned it, I thought it was a nice little word you'd made up (I do that sometimes, so I guess that means I'm projecting =)). Maybe I should try to find Jabberwocky some time. That's always been one of my favorite words but I've never read it.


bfobar wrote:
I think this thread is a better thought for GMs than PCs. I love having my critters fall back, regroup, run off at the first hit for reinforcements, surrender, try to talk their way out of it, etc. Fighting to the death is for mindless undead.

Evil Necromancer: "Of course it is. That's why I use them. Mindless undead are the perfect servants for my evil schemes. They don't ask questions, they don't talk back, they don't complain, and they don't ask for vacations. They have no fear, they don't get sick, and they don't get hungry. They're not going to have a crisis of morality and decide they don't want to work for me anymore and try to rise against me. They are more than fanatically loyal, and they always tell me wife that she dresses nice even when she doesn't (though she doesn't know I ordered them to say that, she's a cutie but not that bright). They also won't divulge important information. And you can bet they don't have a union either!"

Rynjin wrote:

Ah. Understood.

I didn't know frabjous was a real word though until you mentioned it, I thought it was a nice little word you'd made up (I do that sometimes, so I guess that means I'm projecting =)). Maybe I should try to find Jabberwocky some time. That's always been one of my favorite words but I've never read it.

No worries. I do too. :P


One person not being able to kill one caster does not mean no caster has ever been killed. I can see someone thinking they are the exception, but I can't see everyone thinking that, and eventually that someone will likely get hit, that will serve as a reminder to the next person.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:

Oh how did I miss this thread. I tend to like all of RD's threads. ^.^"

Frabjous! :D
Ravingdork wrote:

The Wizard's First Rule: People are stupid, they will believe something because they want it to be true; or because they're afraid it might be true.

** spoiler omitted **

What is to keep people from believing wizards and other heroic characters to be invincible?

Take a wizard with shield and mage armor for example (or more powerful protections if you wish). If a warrior attacked him five times to no avail (failing to hit the AC) then said warrior may well think the wizard's magic insurmountable. After all, he is not wearing armor or wielding a shield--things that might leave openings he can search for. All he knows is that his sword is bouncing off some invisible force field. Add on other "invisible" magical items such as bracers of armor, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor and even high level warriors may find themselves thinking the wizard's defenses insurmountable (whether or not this is actually true).

My first impulse would be that the characters in-game are as adept or better adept to read the results of the behind the scenes dice rolls than we are. We might see that a roll of 8 when 10 would have worked. The fighter might have saw the shield giving way just a bit but his blow was a glancing one, so he decides that if he can get a strike that is more on the mark and less glancing he may penetrate the wizards' bubble. A lot of factors could go into this, including visual and tactile clues (how does it look, do you feel the sword making progress or the shield giving way?), or even olfactory or auditory clues (is there a strange smell that occurs as the magic gives way, like a gaseous bubble splitting, or does it make a sound like metal being stressed?).

I had considered this as well, though I was thinking along the lines of "if the wizard is so damn confident in his wards, why does he keep dodging as well?"

Danny Kessler wrote:

As usual, Ashiel provides the most thought and articulate opinions on all things pathfinder.

This thread has definitely been food for thought. I don't think I agree with the argument that RD seems to be making, but it has forced me to think a bit about how my character perceives what happens in combat and how he makes decisions on what to do.

That makes this whole thing worth it.


Ravingdork wrote:
I had considered this as well, though I was thinking along the lines of "if the wizard is so damn confident in his wards, why does he keep dodging as well?"

Indeed. Fun story. I once had a psion who kind of bluffed that she was invulnerable to a bugbear. I had her use vigor (which grants temporary hit points) to its fullest extent (she was about 5th level at the time) and let him hit her in the face with his morning star (let him critically hit for free if he wanted) and she didn't flinch because of her psionic power absorbing the impact. It freaked the bugbear out. What the bugbear didn't know is if he had tried it again she would have been bleeding all over the place (because she couldn't keep up that level of PP expenditure for long :P).

I was happy the bugbear didn't call my bluff on that one (bluff as in trick, not as in the Bluff skill). He let my character go with the rest of the companions, because I asked him nicely and he didn't want to mess with any weird witches who don't bleed. XD

Quote:
That makes this whole thing worth it.

I know what you mean. (Q-Q)

Great thread RD, as always. :)


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sunbeam wrote:

I can see an army somewhere, a senior NCO adresses a squad of Fighters:

"Detail, Attention!

You men have been selected for anti-caster detail, the finest, most rewarding job in this man's Legion.

I really like this image. But I must point out that this would represent fighters with ranks in spellcraft.

There is also a pathfinder web fiction that details a fighter dealing with a shield spell.
See Part 4 for the event.

Richard Lee Byers wrote:

Sefu plunged across the distance and cut at the cat head on the left. The broadsword rang and rebounded from an invisible shield. Domitian's curved blade whirled at the Wave Rider's midsection. Still in the lunge, Sefu parried, then cut at the rakshasa's groin. Again, an unseen something interposed itself between the sword and its target.

Sefu gave a snarling cry, more expressive of determination than frustration. He recognized this magic as something Olhas sometimes used. And so Sefu understood that the conjured defense wasn't impregnable. It could be penetrated just like the guard of a common warrior.

Recovering forward, he feinted high, then low, then slashed at the cat face on the right. This time, the shield failed to jump in the way.

I think this story illustrates the phenomenon in question quite well. The full story deals with it from a few points of view actually.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Distant Scholar wrote:
Protoman wrote:

"Hey look, fellow bank robber! It's Superman!"

"Oh no! Ain't he bullet proof?"

"You know it! And all we have are guns!"

"Screw it. Let's just keep shooting at him. If that doesn't work, we'll throw our guns at him in the end as a futile effort."

"OKAY!"

<bang!> <bang!> <bang!> <bang!> <bang!> <bang!> <bang!> <throws guns>

Actually, thrown guns are more dangerous to Superman than bullets. Proof about 55 seconds in.

I think this might be an example of meta-gaming, since the actor playing Superman knew that although Superman could have taken the gun no problem, he might in fact not have the same powers.

So the question is, "why doesn't it come up more where a fighter who would need to roll over a 7 with two shots, a 12 with one shot and a 17 with his final shot run away after 6 seconds of fighting?"

I don't think I have run a game where something has not gotten a hit off every now and then in the process of fighting. If something was completely outclassed though I think they would run away. Most APs assume smart people try to run after they have taken a certain amount of damage. At some point though running is not going to accomplish anything. You might as well take your chances and hope you get a lucky shot off.

I also think it is pretty safe to assume that a 15th level fighter knows Wizards use magic to protect themselves without having to have any skill points in anything. Mage Armor and Shield are both first level spells, I would imagine he has heard about them by this point. In addition, almost all the things you listed are items fighters would have access too, and most of them the fighter would be wearing himself.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:

... the 10th level Barbarian may shout "Bonzaaaai!" ...

I think the barbarian means "Banzai !" (literal meaning "ten thousand years"). Bonsai are the tiny trees, but I don't think he means those either. Unless that barbarian took ranks in linguistics, we'll forgive him.

Shadow Lodge

Dude's just lucky he can finally read after all those years.


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SlimGauge wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

... the 10th level Barbarian may shout "Bonzaaaai!" ...

I think the barbarian means "Banzai !" (literal meaning "ten thousand years"). Bonsai are the tiny trees, but I don't think he means those either. Unless that barbarian took ranks in linguistics, we'll forgive him.

Nah, Kurgan Blackblood worships the god of Nature Bonzai, whose whole symbol is a tiny asian tree associated with inner peace and contemplation. Kurgan raises and keeps them for his own inner peace and tranquility. This quiet meditation and reflection gives him the focus necessary to perfectly connect with his inner hurricane and relentless courage that is needed to rush towards an oncoming lizard about twelve or so times larger than himself and rip its heart out like an alien chest-burster.

^-^


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I am late to the discussion so someone may have already made this point.

Did the wizard take ranks in Bluff? If not, why is he not flinching each time someone swings at him? The situation as given seems to be more about using the correct skills effectively.

Warriors swings and hits the force sheild. Wizard rolls Bluff to show zero concern. Warrior rolls Sense Motive to catch on. And fails. Wizard rolls Intimidate to show his disdain and hint that the warrior should leave now. Warrior rolls Sense Motive and rolls high and decides that the wizard is bluffing somehow.

Or the Warrior rolls low and decides that the wizard makes a good, if silent, point and leaves.


A good take actually, I like that.

Yes, is the wizard wetting his pants? Because if the melee gets through and starts lopping off limbs...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What does being fearless have to do with the Bluff skill?

Andoran

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

How does the wizard become fearless?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
How does the wizard become fearless?

Multiclass Paladin. :P


Brambleman wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

I can see an army somewhere, a senior NCO adresses a squad of Fighters:

"Detail, Attention!

You men have been selected for anti-caster detail, the finest, most rewarding job in this man's Legion.

I really like this image. But I must point out that this would represent fighters with ranks in spellcraft.

Not as such. Someone with spellcraft can identify magic items just by examining them, identify spells as they are being cast (rather than just being familiar with the end products of some spells) and have a sufficient grasp of magical theory to craft magical items and spells.

As a modern example, knowing that guns shoot bullets doesn't require Knowledge: Ballistics. Knowing that fire extinguishers smother flames doesn't require Knowledge: Chemistry.

Knowledge of facts is not the same thing as understanding the underlying principles of something. Fighters in a fantasy world will have to deal with spellcasters, so they'll know some basic information about what they can do (especially the low level casters). It's like knowing that Elves hide in trees and shoot you with arrows.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Or perhaps they do, Helic, but at such low DCs (10 or less) that they are considered "common knowledge."


Speaking of Knowledge checks, I always thought it was funny that legendary creatures in our own world are so widely known for their capabilities, yet in a world where they are actually real and can be studied, cataloged, and in many cases actually have spoken and written texts concerning that you have people that think it should require some PH.D in applied esoteric lore to know really basic stuff like succubi charm people or that dragons have breath weapons...


Nothing to do with BEING fearless, just SHOWING no fear. The wizard could be pissing his pants, metaphorically speaking, and just have a good poker face.


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@Ashiel
I always thought basic stuff like what succubi do comes under common knowledge. DC 10 or less.
The specifics of how they do it would be a higher check, like whether they use a Charm Person spell or what have you.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Natan Linggod 972 wrote:
Nothing to do with BEING fearless, just SHOWING no fear. The wizard could be pissing his pants, metaphorically speaking, and just have a good poker face.

Which is represented by a good Bluff check, is all I'm saying.

Shadow Lodge

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Ashiel wrote:
Speaking of Knowledge checks, I always thought it was funny that legendary creatures in our own world are so widely known for their capabilities, yet in a world where they are actually real and can be studied, cataloged, and in many cases actually have spoken and written texts concerning that you have people that think it should require some PH.D in applied esoteric lore to know really basic stuff like succubi charm people or that dragons have breath weapons...

Keep in mind that we can't even keep the basic stuff straight in our own world. I mean, some people think vampires sparkle in the sun. Who knows what kind of tall tales get passed around the taverns by the bards?


TOZ wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Speaking of Knowledge checks, I always thought it was funny that legendary creatures in our own world are so widely known for their capabilities, yet in a world where they are actually real and can be studied, cataloged, and in many cases actually have spoken and written texts concerning that you have people that think it should require some PH.D in applied esoteric lore to know really basic stuff like succubi charm people or that dragons have breath weapons...
Keep in mind that we can't even keep the basic stuff straight in our own world. I mean, some people think vampires sparkle in the sun. Who knows what kind of tall tales get passed around the taverns by the bards?

More like the fact hardly anyone has reliable information because of a lack of safe observation, truthful information from said powerful beings themselves, and/or survivors of encounters with them.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

We even have it in the real world. How many people believe in alternative medicine despite the world of doctors and scholars finding real answers?


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
We even have it in the real world. How many people believe in alternative medicine despite the world of doctors and scholars finding real answers?

Well, there is good evidence doctors are full of it. I was once told I had lung cancer, and it turned out to be pneumonia.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
How does the wizard become fearless?

There was a 3.5 feat you could take only at level 1.


Cranefist wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
We even have it in the real world. How many people believe in alternative medicine despite the world of doctors and scholars finding real answers?
Well, there is good evidence doctors are full of it. I was once told I had lung cancer, and it turned out to be pneumonia.

Passed your fort save? Good job! :D

It wasn't so long ago that I was involved in a long, very long fb argument on alternative medicine and anything non-western and non-scientific being garbage and fraud to teach. An alternative medicine section was in the library of our uni, which got this all started.

Some things work, some don't and are a lie, but not all alternative stuff is bull, because the "other" in medicine sometimes gets adopted as a part of medicine. Acupuncture in physiotherapy, simple herbs still have effects and can be used (or f***ing kill you dead).

It is easy to go, if it ain't our science it is b~#@~~#s! It isn't that simple though, especially since western science loves to nick ideas and solutions from other cultures.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Cranefist wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
We even have it in the real world. How many people believe in alternative medicine despite the world of doctors and scholars finding real answers?
Well, there is good evidence doctors are full of it. I was once told I had lung cancer, and it turned out to be pneumonia.

Passed your fort save? Good job! :D

It wasn't so long ago that I was involved in a long, very long fb argument on alternative medicine and anything non-western and non-scientific being garbage and fraud to teach. An alternative medicine section was in the library of our uni, which got this all started.

Some things work, some don't and are a lie, but not all alternative stuff is bull, because the "other" in medicine sometimes gets adopted as a part of medicine. Acupuncture in physiotherapy, simple herbs still have effects and can be used (or f***ing kill you dead).

It is easy to go, if it ain't our science it is b%!*+&#s! It isn't that simple though, especially since western science loves to nick ideas and solutions from other cultures.

Yeah, I made my three consecutive saves and worked off the Con damage. (;

For sure, on the other end, some "natural remedies" are just drugs. A buddy of mine took a ginger extract once to be funny and it scared him because all of his veins popped up like he was on steroids. Saw it myself.


I will tell you what. What most call modern medicine comes from this folklore nonsensical alternative medicine nonsense. That is to say, the pill was invented in the east, in China; and Aspirin is made from tree bark (the same sort of tree bark I believe was taught to be boiled the extract drank for pain relief, if memory serves).

The only difference between real medicine and alternative medicine is one hasn't been proven or believed to work in certain circles. Then again, the difference isn't that pronounced, because every year we have drugs recalled because they aren't working as intended or are making babies pop out of the womb with eight noses or causing your bones to erupt from your eyes or causing cancer of the eyelashes or some crazy something.

And yes, I'm exaggerating (in the name of humor), but you get the idea.

EDIT: Here's a great example of a simple herbal remedy. My family is horribly prone to heart burn. We used to go through antacid tablets (such as Tums or Rolaids) constantly. My dad practically ate the things like candies to keep stomach acid under control. Some of us were diagnosed with acid reflux. My mother had issues sleeping because of it and had to sleep tilted upright.

The answer? Caraway. It's used as a food seasoning. You can buy the stuff at your local grocery store in the spices section. It has an almost minty flavor (yet subtle enough I can happily eat it and I hate mint, but sometimes put these on or in my food). The stuff stops heartburn in its tracks and also helps digestion. My grandmother, much like us, took Rolaids all the time, and then started taking some caraway in her food and no longer needs antacids.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In the name of humor? I may not sleep tonight!


Ravingdork wrote:
In the name of humor? I may not sleep tonight!

I'm gifted at keeping people up at night. :P


Ashiel wrote:


EDIT: Here's a great example of a simple herbal remedy. My family is horribly prone to heart burn. We used to go through antacid tablets (such as Tums or Rolaids) constantly. My dad practically ate the things like candies to keep stomach acid under control. Some of us were diagnosed with acid reflux. My mother had issues sleeping because of it and had to sleep tilted upright.

The answer? Caraway. It's used as a food seasoning. You can buy the stuff at your local grocery store in the spices section. It has an almost minty flavor (yet subtle enough I can happily eat it and I hate mint, but sometimes put these on or in my food). The stuff stops heartburn in its tracks and also helps digestion. My grandmother, much like us, took Rolaids all the time, and then started taking some caraway in her food and no longer needs antacids.

Flat mint works just as well, as does ginger. Including drinks made from real ginger like certain kinds of ginger ale and ginger beer.

I have no clue WHY, and I'm happy not knowing in case it stops working after I figure it out, but I always drink some ginger ale or go out back and pick some mint leaves to chew when I have heartburn/a stomach ache and it works fine.


Dosgamer wrote:

Limiting metagame interactions is the job of both the DM and the player. The player should try to play their character based on the character's stats, skills, and past experiences. I find that is rarely done. Player knowledge tends to be rampant.

In my home game I try to temper that (as DM) by asking for knowledge checks rather than letting my players assume they know x, y, and z. I also try to be descriptive in encounters. When it comes to dice rolling, though, it's hard not to metagame. If a player rolls a 19 on their attack roll and miss, they know they will hardly ever hit and react accordingly. It could be said (as mentioned above) that the character in that case knows they would have hit lesser foes and could deduce that their opponent is all but immune to their physical attacks.

Something I have thought about though. I don't live in the DnD universe, so I don't spend a lot of time trying to learn about the monsters. Sure I might have spent a few dozen hours reading over stuff, but I haven't seriously studied it. My character has had years to learn about the wildlife. If he spent even a few hundred hours studying the monsters of his world, he would have a much better understanding of enemies than I do.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Dosgamer wrote:

Limiting metagame interactions is the job of both the DM and the player. The player should try to play their character based on the character's stats, skills, and past experiences. I find that is rarely done. Player knowledge tends to be rampant.

In my home game I try to temper that (as DM) by asking for knowledge checks rather than letting my players assume they know x, y, and z. I also try to be descriptive in encounters. When it comes to dice rolling, though, it's hard not to metagame. If a player rolls a 19 on their attack roll and miss, they know they will hardly ever hit and react accordingly. It could be said (as mentioned above) that the character in that case knows they would have hit lesser foes and could deduce that their opponent is all but immune to their physical attacks.

Something I have thought about though. I don't live in the DnD universe, so I don't spend a lot of time trying to learn about the monsters. Sure I might have spent a few dozen hours reading over stuff, but I haven't seriously studied it. My character has had years to learn about the wildlife. If he spent even a few hundred hours studying the monsters of his world, he would have a much better understanding of enemies than I do.

Well let's look at it like this. Even before the modern miracles of communication, people have studied flora and fauna of the world out of sheer curiosity and much of that has evolved into modern biology and botany today. Hell, we have a pretty decent idea as to how dinosaurs lived and they were extinct before we existed by a large gap in time. Meanwhile, almost everyone is familiar with certain stories of things like vampires, trolls, werewolves, etc, and they aren't even real.

Now flip over to a fantasy world. Here we have dragons, and all those aforementioned beasts are real. And you're in a world where powerful wizards can use powerful divining techniques to acquire knowledge. Scrying alone can be used to view most mighty beasts from a safe and convenient location, meaning a wizard doesn't even need to get near a creature to study it. In Golarion people have printing presses, and books. Published survival guides, 1,001 things about werewolves, and helpful rhymes that remind us of certain things.

We got rhymes in reality to remind us the difference between a highly toxic coral snake versus a nonvenomous king snake. "Red before black you're okay Jack, Red before Yellow is a deadly fellow".

"Red on the scale means fires from hell. Green on the wing means acid won't sting. White on the flight means ice on the kite..." might me a rhyme that people teach their kids to know the differences between types of dragons. These beasts would be studied. You can buy dragonscale armor for goodness sakes. You can even have a few clerics stand around in a circle and each cast augury to discern which folktales about critters are correct.

"Are vampires vulnerable to light?" -Ding-
"Are they repelled by holy symbols?" -Ding-
"Are they sparkly in the daylight?" -Buzz-
*scratches that one off the list*

Grand Lodge

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Ashiel wrote:

I will tell you what. What most call modern medicine comes from this folklore nonsensical alternative medicine nonsense. That is to say, the pill was invented in the east, in China; and Aspirin is made from tree bark (the same sort of tree bark I believe was taught to be boiled the extract drank for pain relief, if memory serves).

Willow bark. Actually works better then the pills for me.

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