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Any word on a Mythic Playtest?


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151 to 187 of 187 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

@ James Jacobs- but the Age of Worms and Savage Tide did all that epic stuff with just going up to 20. Okay my party was 21 when they finished Savage Tide, but they were 20 when they were taking on the big D.

IMO 15th-20th level is mythic/epic level play in Pathfinder. At that point the complexity of game is pretty much through the roof and enough to make a gm's head explode. PCs can already take on powerful demons and even demonlord, titans, great dragons and demi-gods. You don't get much more epic than that. I'm sure there are players that are happy to play epic (or at least like the idea of it), but the trick to doing this book will be to make it so that epic/mythic play will be manageable for the gms and they will actually want to run an epic game. If the gms think it's too much of a headache and don't want to run it then there is no point in even doing such a product. Accomplishing that should be quite a challenge given that levels 15+ are already too much of a hassle for many/most gms.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

P.H. Dungeon wrote:

@ James Jacobs- but the Age of Worms and Savage Tide did all that epic stuff with just going up to 20. Okay my party was 21 when they finished Savage Tide, but they were 20 when they were taking on the big D.

IMO 15th-20th level is mythic/epic level play in Pathfinder. At that point the complexity of game is pretty much through the roof and enough to make a gm's head explode. PCs can already take on powerful demons and even demonlord, titans, great dragons and demi-gods. You don't get much more epic than that. I'm sure there are players that are happy to play epic (or at least like the idea of it), but the trick to doing this book will be to make it so that epic/mythic play will be manageable for the gms and they will actually want to run an epic game. If the gms think it's too much of a headache and don't want to run it then there is no point in even doing such a product. Accomplishing that should be quite a challenge given that levels 15+ are already too much of a hassle for many/most gms.

Look closer at those adventures. While the adventures themselves topped at 20th (with Savage Tide peeking in to 21st)... the character levels aren't what I'm talking about.

Age of Worms, and to a much greater extent Savage Tide made EXTENSIVE use of not only Epic Level material, but also of monsters of higher CR than 25. Currently, we couldn't really do an adventure path like Age of Worms, Savage Tide, or even Shackled City, because the foes that those three campaigns end up statting up and presenting in the last few adventures go beyond what we can currently really do with the Pathfinder Game. Mythic Adventures, in other words, is perhaps even more useful to GMs than it is to players, since a GM can use the rules even in a game where the PCs are not mythic characters.

I fully expect to be using Mythic Adventures in future Adventure Paths beyond Wrath of the Righteous that do NOT let the PCs get mythic options, but WILL give some of the bad guys those options.

Shadow Lodge

lordzack wrote:
Man, I think Cthulhu gets way overblown. Sure, he's a pretty powerful dude, but the guy got taken down by a bunch of regular joes by being rammed by a ship. Sure most of them got killed and they definitely didn't kill Cthulhu, but these are just regular folk, not mighty adventurers or legendary heroes. Actually lots of creatures get this. They are much more powerful than what they face in the source material, but then when introduced to D&D they are made more powerful that those they face in the new "environment", even though characters in D&D are far more powerful than those in the source material! Personally, I think Big C should be at most CR 20, and the Star-Spawn perhaps as low as CR 10 or so.

I actually go somewhat the other way...to me, it's the Star spawn that are consistently under-valued. Read the actual story....it's not actually implied anywhere that Cthulhu is that much more powerful than any other member of his race. Obama isn't some 20 foot tall fire-breathing invulnerable dude...he's just a regular guy that holds a position of power.

Hell, the creature in the story probably wasn't even Cthulhu...he was just the guy nearest the door when it happened to open. Bob Xothian, if you will.


Thats possible.

I'm not saying that Cthulhu and his Star-Spawn aren't powerful, I'm just saying they don't have to be CR 20 or more to represent the threat they posed in the original source material.


Well given that I'm running Age of Worms right now using Pathfinder, I hope I can do those higher level adventures with Pathfinder. I see your point though, but even so, I think it is critical that in doing such a book you give a lot thought to making it user friendly for gms because the fact is that if the gms won't run an epic level game the book won't get much use, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean it won't sell well.

James Jacobs wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

@ James Jacobs- but the Age of Worms and Savage Tide did all that epic stuff with just going up to 20. Okay my party was 21 when they finished Savage Tide, but they were 20 when they were taking on the big D.

IMO 15th-20th level is mythic/epic level play in Pathfinder. At that point the complexity of game is pretty much through the roof and enough to make a gm's head explode. PCs can already take on powerful demons and even demonlord, titans, great dragons and demi-gods. You don't get much more epic than that. I'm sure there are players that are happy to play epic (or at least like the idea of it), but the trick to doing this book will be to make it so that epic/mythic play will be manageable for the gms and they will actually want to run an epic game. If the gms think it's too much of a headache and don't want to run it then there is no point in even doing such a product. Accomplishing that should be quite a challenge given that levels 15+ are already too much of a hassle for many/most gms.

Look closer at those adventures. While the adventures themselves topped at 20th (with Savage Tide peeking in to 21st)... the character levels aren't what I'm talking about.

Age of Worms, and to a much greater extent Savage Tide made EXTENSIVE use of not only Epic Level material, but also of monsters of higher CR than 25. Currently, we couldn't really do an adventure path like Age of Worms, Savage Tide, or even Shackled City, because the foes that those three campaigns end up statting up and presenting in the last few adventures go beyond what we can currently really do with the Pathfinder Game. Mythic Adventures, in other words, is perhaps even more useful to GMs than it is to players, since a GM can use the rules even in a game where the PCs are not mythic characters.

I fully expect to be using Mythic Adventures in future Adventure Paths beyond Wrath of the Righteous that do NOT let the PCs get mythic options, but WILL give some of the bad guys those options.


In case you missed it (or I missed it when someone put it here) the playtest officially begins next Tuesday the 14th.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Can we assume there will be some announcement made on the main page for those of us who are not all that good at following the boards?


Yes. Probably. I think so. We'll see.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Omg so close. I can't wait!

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wait King Arthur and the round tables were bunch of low level fighters. How are they Mythic?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Suzaku wrote:
Wait King Arthur and the round tables were bunch of low level fighters. How are they Mythic?

They were low level fighters with Mythic abilities. That's how Mythic works. You don't have to be 20th level to start.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

We'll make a big deal of it on the blog and the messageboards (and Facebook, and twitter, and other venues) when the playtest goes live.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Suzaku wrote:


Wait King Arthur and the round tables were bunch of low level fighters. How are they Mythic?

Where did you get the idea that King Arthur, Sir Lancelot du Lac and company were low level? I'm curious. For that matter, when you say "low level" what do you mean?


R_Chance wrote:
Suzaku wrote:


Wait King Arthur and the round tables were bunch of low level fighters. How are they Mythic?
Where did you get the idea that King Arthur, Sir Lancelot du Lac and company were low level? I'm curious. For that matter, when you say "low level" what do you mean?

+1

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1- 5 are the low levels possibly extending to 6. I don't believe much media has characters above 8. Even LotR seems to be low level, before you mention the Balor, it was just knowledge roll fudge, and mistook for fire/evil outsider with no wings for a Balor.


Suzaku wrote:
1- 5 are the low levels possibly extending to 6. I don't believe much media has characters above 8. Even LotR seems to be low level, before you mention the Balor, it was just knowledge roll fudge, and mistook for fire/evil outsider with no wings for a Balor.

It was a Balrog. It wasn't a Balor. Balor are a D&D invention loosely based on the Balrog.

The rest of your post makes no sense. Gandalf mistook the Balrog, which he should have known clearly, for a creature from a completely different fictional mythos? Huh?


None of you seem to have done any research on one thing.

The original Balor is a powerful deity of sorts from Irish mythology.


Icyshadow wrote:

None of you seem to have done any research on one thing.

The original Balor is a powerful deity of sorts from Irish mythology.

True, but the D&D Balor took nothing but the name from him. The monster was originally based on the balrog. In fact it was originally called a balrog, then changed to Type VI demons, one of which was named Balor, then Balor became the generic name in 2nd Edition.

So, that's true, but irrelevant. Which is why I didn't mention it.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmmm for some reason I thought they mentioned Balor. But regardless no one should be higher than 8 at the most but more likely 8


Suzaku wrote:
Hmmm for some reason I thought they mentioned Balor. But regardless no one should be higher than 8 at the most but more likely 8

And this is relevant why?

LotR is not a Pathfinder game. It doesn't translate into PF. PF doesn't actually handle most fantasy fiction well. That's okay. It isn't designed to.

If the question is still "Why are they Mythic, despite being low level?", again, that's the whole point of Mythic. Relatively low-level characters (and villains) with Mythic abilities. Gandalf definitely. Frodo had a Mythic artifact (one of ways specifically mentioned of gaining Mythic abilities). Aragorn probably. Sauron, Saruman, the Nazgul, all with Mythic abilities. (Or more: Prophesied "not by the hand of man will he fall" is well beyond anything I expect from Mythic.)


thejeff wrote:

If the question is still "Why are they Mythic, despite being low level?", again, that's the whole point of Mythic. Relatively low-level characters (and villains) with Mythic abilities. Gandalf definitely. Frodo had a Mythic artifact (one of ways specifically mentioned of gaining Mythic abilities). Aragorn probably. Sauron, Saruman, the Nazgul, all with Mythic abilities. (Or more: Prophesied "not by the hand of man will he fall" is well beyond anything I expect from Mythic.)

Actually, the thing with the Witch King being killed by a woman and a hobbit (rather than a man) reminds me of the 'weaknesses' that mythic characters will be getting in pathfinder.


Matrix Dragon wrote:
thejeff wrote:

If the question is still "Why are they Mythic, despite being low level?", again, that's the whole point of Mythic. Relatively low-level characters (and villains) with Mythic abilities. Gandalf definitely. Frodo had a Mythic artifact (one of ways specifically mentioned of gaining Mythic abilities). Aragorn probably. Sauron, Saruman, the Nazgul, all with Mythic abilities. (Or more: Prophesied "not by the hand of man will he fall" is well beyond anything I expect from Mythic.)

Actually, the thing with the Witch King being killed by a woman and a hobbit (rather than a man) reminds me of the 'weaknesses' that mythic characters will be getting in pathfinder.

In a way I guess. It's not so much that he was "weak" to them, but that he was invulnerable to everyone else. (Or more accurately, that he was fated to be slain on the Pelennor fields by Eowyn and Merry. Just that the prophecy was vague enough that no one realized that.)

So if there was a Mythic, "Can't be hurt" ability tied to an "except by X" weakness, that would be closer.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I guess it just jibes me the wrong way that level 1 could be mythics...


Suzaku wrote:
I guess it just jibes me the wrong way that level 1 could be mythics...

I kind of like it actually. It matches up with a reoccurring theme in some stories where the hero has a superpower, but simply isn't very skilled with it at first. Then you have the high level non-mythic BBEG look down at the hero and say "You have power, but it is worthless without experience!" *evil laugh as he backhands the player across the room*

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Suzaku wrote:
I guess it just jibes me the wrong way that level 1 could be mythics...
I kind of like it actually. It matches up with a reoccurring theme in some stories where the hero has a superpower, but simply isn't very skilled with it at first. Then you have the high level non-mythic BBEG look down at the hero and say "You have power, but it is worthless without experience!" *evil laugh as he backhands the player across the room*

That's just level 1 class...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I intend to run my GF through the first two parts of Shatters Star on her own once I have Mythic rules. I'm curious to test how it'll work. On the other hand...I'm going to start her out as a Tier 1 Mythic character, with the explanation that her mother or father was a god (due to her own likes, this probably means that mom was Calistria, Nocticula, or Shelyn).

And that makes me think 'low-level mythic character', sorta like Hercules might have been as a kid, or maybe Achilles.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Suzaku wrote:
I guess it just jibes me the wrong way that level 1 could be mythics...

Then don't play level 1 with mythic tiers. It's an option, not a requirement.

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually you're thinking of it the wrong way Suzaku. Do you suppose Heracles had any levels of fighter or, more likely, barbarian when he was born???

Probably not.

Yet not very long at all after he was born, Hera, Zeus's jealous wife, sent deadly serpents to kill Heracles who was but a new born infant. Yet when all was said and done, Heracles just strangled the snakes and went on living and growing up and had many more Mythical deeds to accomplish.

He by no means had any class levels... but he was Mythical. He wasn't a god but he was gifted with divine strength, Mythical strength.

In a similar way, King Arthur and a few of his knights were Mythical. They may not of been high level but they were Mythical on merit of their adventures. Sir Galahad... God's Knight, so pure that not even King Arthur or Sir Lancelot could receive such distinction.

This is what Mythic means.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Anybody else as excited for tomorrow as I am?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vigil wrote:
Anybody else as excited for tomorrow as I am?

Well considering tomorrows just Tuesday for me...not really :p


Do we have any idea how big this playtest document is going to be? With all the hype behind it, it almost sounds like we might be getting something similar to the original Pathfinder beta document. Or is it going to be just a bare bones playtest like ultimate combat/magic/advanced race guide?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, the picture was of something fairly hefty - probably not as thick as PF-Beta, but definitely a large enough book to hurt someone with if you had it bound.


ecw1701 wrote:
In case you missed it (or I missed it when someone put it here) the playtest officially begins next Wednesday the 14th.

Fixed it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What time should this hit tomorrow?


Starsunder wrote:
What time should this hit tomorrow?

Oh, I hope at 0900 West Coast time when they open. That would put it at 1200 East Coast time, plenty of time to get home from the gym and F5 (alot!).

-- david
papa.drb


Starsunder wrote:
What time should this hit tomorrow?

November 30th

Cheliax

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Blog normally goes up at 10am Pacific, which is probably the earliest we can expect it. However, with big things like this (there needs to be multiple announcements, loading a product up, plus an entirely new section of the messageboards) it can quite often take a bit longer - it will almost certainly be going up manually rather than the normal automatic reveal for example.

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