This spell is really screwing over the baddies we are facing...
I'm a player, so it's not like I'm whining all my monsters are getting punked, but I'm getting ready to cry if the DM unleashes it on us.
This just seems too full of awesome...or are there holes in this spell we are not seeing?
School illusion (phantasm) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain insanity 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which may be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will disbelief, then Fortitude partial; see text Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You implant within the minds of your targets the illusion that they are engulfed in tangled webs teeming with swarms of tiny spiders. Those who fail to disbelieve the phantasmal web are treated as if in a web spell, but must also make a Fortitude save at the beginning of each turn or become nauseated for that round by the phantasmal spiders.
As the phantasmal web exists only in the minds of the targets, it cannot be burned or destroyed, and it provides no cover (though it does provide concealment) against attacks made by the targets. Targets cannot escape the phantasmal web by moving, even by teleportation. Freedom of movement allows unobstructed movement but does not negate the concealment or nausea effects.
Targets of the spell perceive everyone else around them to be engulfed in webs and swarming spiders, but the spell has no visible effect to other creatures (who may assist allies to disbelieve the effect).
That looks irritating, all right. But relative to spells like Slow or Stinking Cloud, level 5 sounds about right (especially considering it's mind-affecting).
If I felt (as a player) that this spell would be used against me, I'd get some undead and/or constructs built.
Well, it seems a bit contradictory in its description...
The spell seems to fool the targets into thinking it is trapped in a Web spell (with spiders!) so, one would think that teleporting out would get their brain to reboot,but it does not, but a freedom of movement does?
Web has rules to get out, so why not make the the target have to mentally escape the grapple (they 'think' they escaped)to give them a chance?
Or is it that the spell has 2 saves that gives it balance? WILL to be trapped, and FORT to not be nauseated.
Yeah, I get that the spell DOES have to get past that hurdle...otherwise it gets shut down fast, but when it works...it's devastating.
My group is seeing a well built illusionist doing his shtick with this spell very well. We got the drop on a bunch of Barbed Devils mounted on Hellcats...and he took out over half of them (6 or so) cause they blew their saves (he is spell focused in illusion I believe).
I don't fault the player obviously, we are all reading the spell, and he is doing nothing incorrectly...just a few of us are looking at some epic fights getting done VERY quickly.
But, I agree in the end...the spell can fail on that first save.
Flagged for General Discussion.
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I think that if the caster succeeds on all his checks vs SR, plus the devils all fail on their Will saves AND on their Fort saves, then bad things should definitely happen to those devils.
The spell seems fine to me.
It has spell resistance, a save that negates, and a partial even if you fail. And it's 5th level, all in all it's not terrible but it's not the best spell around either.
Adding to that :
"A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."
What constitutes proof lies with the GM, but allies communicating is easily done when multiple intelligent creatures are targeted, in the example a single succesful save or failed SR check would allow one of the devils to communicate this and grant his allies a new save with a +4 bonus.
If your party ever gets targeted I am sure one or more will succeed their save and allow them to communicate this, it seems not close to as bad as you think. Confusion is more troublesome in my opinion.
By the way - barbed devils on hellcats. Luv it.
It has spell resistance, a save that negates, and a partial even if you fail. And it's 5th level, all in all it's not terrible but it's not the best spell around either.Adding to that :
"A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."
What constitutes proof lies with the GM, but allies communicating is easily done when multiple intelligent creatures are targeted, in the example a single succesful save or failed SR check would allow one of the devils to communicate this and grant his allies a new save with a +4 bonus.
If your party ever gets targeted I am sure one or more will succeed their save and allow them to communicate this, it seems not close to as bad as you think. Confusion is more troublesome in my opinion.
Okay...I missed that...we all did I guess!
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If those Devils were all within 30' of each other, failed to resist the spells with their SR22, then failed a will save with a +8 will bonus, and became entangled, or worse failed the follow up fort save with a +14 to the roll...and get nauseated
...ya they deserve to die.
Don't forget the spellcraft check they each get to make to identify the spell as it's being cast to know it's an illusion. (dc 20 and they each have a +12 to spellcraft so... 8 or better on the dice).
I don't see a problem with the spell.
The spell seems to fool the targets into thinking it is trapped in a Web spell (with spiders!) so, one would think that teleporting out would get their brain to reboot,but it does not, but a freedom of movement does?
Phantasmal web doesn't prevent teleportation or movement, it just states that targets cannot escape the effect by moving. The illusionary webs effectively stay with the creature until it successfully disbelieves the spell or the effect ends. A creature who fails the initial Will save against phantasmal web is affected as follows for as long as it believes:
- It must make a Fortitude save each turn or gain the nauseated condition for the round.
- It gains the grappled condition.
- Any target of its attacks with at least 5 feet of "web" between them gains cover. Any target with at least 20 feet of "web" between them gains total cover.
- It can break free and remove the grappled condition by making a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist skill check against the spell's DC. This doesn't end the effect.
- If they break free of the grapple they are considered to be moving through webs. This is treated as difficult terrain, and with each move action the target must make a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist skill check against the spell's DC or become grappled again.
- Teleportation effects work as normal, but don't end the effect or remove the grappled condition. Whereever the creature teleports, it believes it's covered in spider-filled webs.
- If the creature is affected by freedom of movement, it does not gain the grappled condition nor is it considered to be moving through difficult terrain. The "concealment" effect listed in phantasmal web probably means the cover effect.
If those Devils were all within 30' of each other, failed to resist the spells with their SR22, then failed a will save with a +8 will bonus, and became entangled, or worse failed the follow up fort save with a +14 to the roll...and get nauseated
...ya they deserve to die.
Don't forget the spellcraft check they each get to make to identify the spell as it's being cast to know it's an illusion. (dc 20 and they each have a +12 to spellcraft so... 8 or better on the dice).
I don't see a problem with the spell.
Does this mean they get the +4 to the save?
Does this mean they get the +4 to the save?If those Devils were all within 30' of each other, failed to resist the spells with their SR22, then failed a will save with a +8 will bonus, and became entangled, or worse failed the follow up fort save with a +14 to the roll...and get nauseated
...ya they deserve to die.
Don't forget the spellcraft check they each get to make to identify the spell as it's being cast to know it's an illusion. (dc 20 and they each have a +12 to spellcraft so... 8 or better on the dice).
I don't see a problem with the spell.
Well if they see someone casting phantasmal web and then when he finishes you are caught in webbing, that is pretty damn close to undeniable proof as to the nature of the spell. At the very least that would imply a +4 save vs the spell but auto-fail would not be unreasonable at all (well it would be, towards illusionists I guess).
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Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
So +4 from allies Or auto pass on a spellcraft roll. Or a save each turn depending on GM.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think allowing the Spellcraft skill to function as an automatic bonus save vs. illusion is going much too far, and I doubt I'd even allow it to give a +4 bonus by itself. It's in the nature of illusion magic to deceive the senses; you think you are seeing a real web or fireball or whatever. That's part of the illusion, and that's what the Will save is for, to realize that it's not what it seems. YMMV.
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I think allowing the Spellcraft skill to function as an automatic bonus save vs. illusion is going much too far, and I doubt I'd even allow it to give a +4 bonus by itself. It's in the nature of illusion magic to deceive the senses; you think you are seeing a real web or fireball or whatever. That's part of the illusion, and that's what the Will save is for, to realize that it's not what it seems. YMMV.
So youre are effected before the spell is cast? Sounds OP.
A successful Spellcraft check means you know exactly which spell he's casting, but somehow it wouldn't allow you to realize that it might be an illusion? That makes no sense at all. I'm on the side of +4 bonus to the Will save, personally.
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The important line in the rules for illusions is right here:
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
A successful spellcraft check proves that this guy just cast an illusion spell that makes you think you are trapped in a web the instant before you get trapped in a web. Yeah, auto success on your disbelieve attempt. OP? A bit but that's RAW for you.
Kicking illusionists in the face again.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think allowing the Spellcraft skill to function as an automatic bonus save vs. illusion is going much too far, and I doubt I'd even allow it to give a +4 bonus by itself. It's in the nature of illusion magic to deceive the senses; you think you are seeing a real web or fireball or whatever. That's part of the illusion, and that's what the Will save is for, to realize that it's not what it seems. YMMV.So youre are effected before the spell is cast? Sounds OP.
You're affected AS it's cast, because the spell has to provide sensory input for you to process and make your intellectual evaluation of what the spell is. That sensory input you're receiving is not real. Thus, the effect of the illusion includes your observation of the spell being cast that you try to analyze with your intellect.
When the alternative is "anyone with Spellcraft gets a double save to negate and/or +4 to save against any illusion spell that allows disbelief," then I disagree on overpowered. My position would be that that interpretation of the Spellcraft skill is overpowered.
To each their own.
Yeah I would side on the 'faced with proof' line meaning something...
To say otherwise would beg the question, what is the difference between you ID'ing the Illusion spell affecting you, and the enemy caster just directly telling you 'it's just an illusion, it only affects you if you believe it'? I don't see the difference between those re: qualification as 'proof'.
But in this case I'm not sure if the Spellcraft would be AUTO NEGATE,
you may know the spell is Illusion school, but some Illusion school spells e.g. Shadow sub-school, have an effect even if you disbelieve. That's not the case with this specific spell, but there is 'SOME' chance that some effect riding on the spell made it so you are being affected by 'real' webs/spiders - 'SOME' chance not needing to be much, so you would be free to act upon your knowledge (from Spellcraft) by spending a Standard Action to Disbelieve.
QUESTION: Spellcraft accurately ID's spells. Does that mean you know the name, or does tha mean you know what they do? How much information does it give you? Do you know if a spell has an Evil descriptor? (etc) This comes into play re: whether or not an Illusion spell may still effect you in some way even if you dis-believe, etc...
Also note that you can make Know: Arcana checks to identify spells in differrent ways: spells that just targetted you, by components used (this MAY be the only spell with those components, or if 1 of 2 spells is an illusion and the other spell doesn't correspond to the spell effet at all, you have a good reason to disbelieve), AND you can also ID spells by their effect AFTER they are cast. Yes, *4* checks to ID a spell (including Spellcraft) is nuts, but that's RAW... I've mentioned this before on threads about the 'overlap' of Spellcraft/Know:Arcana, I mean if there is suficient reason for 2 separate skills to exist for different tasks, fine, but when they do the exact same thing like this the RAW becomes a joke.
Thus, the effect of the illusion includes your observation of the spell being cast that you try to analyze with your intellect.
That's an interesting take, and definitely more balanced than otherwise, but it's SO interesting that it's just unbelievable that it's not in the RAW if that's the intended function... I mean, it brings up questions like what spell is 'seemingly' being cast when you cast an Illusion spell? Wouldn't that make Illusion spells immune to Counter Spell? (besides generic Dispel Magic Countering)
Maybe this IS a case where the RAW is broken as written, you can't make a 'conservative' reading of the RAW and result in a balanced outcome. Your idea is probably the best approach, but also has 'issues' that aren't resolvable without straying further from RAW. Perhaps it's at least worthy of a RAW-straying Blog Post/FAQ.
I would point out that illusion magic is best practiced when no one knows you're doing it.
Personally, I find the idea of "combat" illusions such as this to be rather silly under the circumstances (such that identifying the spell makes you aware that the effects are illusory). A true illusionist is a master of misdirection and deception, and to play one successfully in Pathfinder requires either a lenient DM or [far] above average lateral thinking and creativity. Lots of bonuses in stealth, bluff, and other sneaky skills like that don't hurt.
Illusionists are schemers and planners by nature.
That is not to say that combat illusionists can't function, but they are much more difficult, not only to execute, but also to really understand. Once an enemy force (be it 4 orcs or 40) begins to catch on that your spells aren't causing actual damage or hinderances, it starts to fall apart.
Still and Silent spell metamagic are almost a necessity if you want to use illusions in combat with another caster around, but even then, I think some people rule that spellcraft checks are still granted.
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I believe there is a bloodline or archatype to deceive spell craft. Would be great here.
When can you make disbelief saves? When effected, each round? What about when your friend is so certain it's an illusion - do you get a second or third save?
Edit: rakshasa
Bloodline Arcana: Add half your sorcerer level to the Spellcraft DC for others to identify spells you cast. If their checks fail by 5 or more, they mistakenly believe you are casting an entirely different spell (selected by you when you begin casting).
+1 @Foghammer
i don't see a problem with it being ideal to cast illusions while unobserved (etc)
especially if via some feats, skills, and/or metamagic,
you can counteract many problems of recognizably casting illusions.
you can look at it as illusionists being screwed, but the other side of the coin is that in many cases the 'targets' need to respond in a certain way to even get a save in the first place. and the3 fact is that PRPG has made school specialization less restrictive in terms of casting/using opposed school spells, they aren't really barred anymore and scrolls/wands don't cost any slots period... so if your illusions don't work one time/ some time, use something else, i.e. not much different than if you wanted to focus on fireballs instead of illusions.
I could either allow a +4 bonus on the save for ID'ing the spell or run it as normal and allow a creature a second save with a +4 bonus on it's own turn. I will probably run with the second option if it ever comes up in my game.
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Its a phantasm. As in, it is a It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. There can be no proof that it is not real because it is bypassing all your senses and assuming direct control.
As to spellcraft shafting illusions: What happens if you are "sure it is an illusion" but it happens not to be? Do you forfeit your save? If a BBEG is Greater Invisible and has a minion cast Major Image of a Finger Of Death while he casts it for real, do you automatically die?
Edit: Thought of a good example.
When I was a kid, there was this fancy VR game at the local arcade with the head-set and everything. I guess we could call it a Phantasm because it was simulating my sense of sight uniquely for me.
It was super simple graphics-wise, and I knew it was an illusion. But, when the little monster-things would jump at me, I would flinch. And I can guarantee you, that if it could simulate the feeling of spiders crawling over me, I'd be pretty freaked out.
Presenting proof is different than telling someone, "hey its and illusion, now get out". Given the fact that an affected target has problems perceiving much it should be quite hard to get the +4 save.
The problem of Spellcraft still remains if you want to use this spell on anyone who is able to ID it for what it is. But even then you could rule that, as Knight Magenta said, actually disbelieving something as unsettling as this is still hard.
Don't forget that modifiers to Perception skill checks also affect Spellcraft checks to identify spells. That Spellcraft DC is increasing by +1 for every 10 feet to the caster, by an additional +5 if distracted (by combat, for example), by +20 if the caster is invisible, etc.
Don't forget that modifiers to Perception skill checks also affect Spellcraft checks to identify spells. That Spellcraft DC is increasing by +1 for every 10 feet to the caster, by an additional +5 if distracted (by combat, for example), by +20 if the caster is invisible, etc.
I probably should check spellcraft on that, but it sounds very sensible, good catch if that is true.
Identify Spell Being Cast
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
I hadn't noticed that. Thank you, WRoy.
I do not see the difference between this spell and say Phantasmal Killer.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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All IMHO of course.
I'd not allow Spellcraft to Autoshaft Illusions, but I would allow the plus four.
It's akin to the "I don't see any traps *whack* ow there's a trap!" bit.
Sorcerer casts phantasmal web.
Wizard uses spell craft, gets the +4.
Makes save: "Ok, I know it's an illusion. Focus, work past it, fireball."
Fails save: "Ok, I know that was an illusion, Focus, work past it... AHHHHHHHH CRAP!!!!!! SPIDERS!!!!!! It's not an illusion, I must have misidentified the spell! GET THEM OFF GET THEM OFF!!!!!!!!"
But what about "proof" that the illusion IS real?
What if you just cast another illusion of a giant spider then cast phantasmal web?
A gnome with the Effortless trickery feat can do just that, keep illusions up and running while casting other things,even other illusions.
What if you made an illusionary double of one of the enemies screaming "Oh god it hurts!! It's real!! GOD NO!!"
If you throw the feat "Shadow Gambit" in the mix you have illusions that can deal actual damage.
What does that do to the ability to believe or disbelieve illusions??
Yes I do play a gnome sorcerer Illusionist. HE ROCKS!
All IMHO of course.
I'd not allow Spellcraft to Autoshaft Illusions, but I would allow the plus four.
It's akin to the "I don't see any traps *whack* ow there's a trap!" bit.
Sorcerer casts phantasmal web.
Wizard uses spell craft, gets the +4.
Makes save: "Ok, I know it's an illusion. Focus, work past it, fireball."
Just because you identify that a caster is casting an illusion, does that tell you that the spell you are being affected by is an illusion? Because attempting to consciously dismiss a spell, when it is not an illusion, should have a drawback.
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Actually, has anyone looked at Knowledge(Arcana)? There is an application called Identify a spell effect that is in place but it is not really explained. I am more worried about this with regard to illusions.
the Spellcraft skill doesn't give any rule for failing to identify. Its basically a toggle:
you identify the spell or you don't.
if someone is casting phantasmal web at you and you identify the spell as its being cast, by RAW you are effectively automatically immune. Why? Because if he's casting PW he *has to be casting* PW. Absent a houserule saying he can bluff a spellcast or something thats exactly what he does.
If he's casting something else, then you identify that, and PW never becomes the issue anyway.
SHOULD it work that way? Probably not. But i'm not sure how to read
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw
in any other way. No one is more convinced it isn't real, than the guy who's watching him casting the illusion. It'd be like watching a real world magician set up his act and watching how he does it and then going to sit in the audience and try to convince yourself its real. it doesn't work- because you *know* its not real. If you aren't going to allow it to work then you need to come up with some rationale for it that works in the game world. Can spellcasters Bluff the wrong spell being cast? Do they get to pick the spell you think they are casting? Whats the DC? its not really as easy as saying "hey that doesn't work because I said so" because it actually introduces a whole new subsystem to how Magic works. By RAW there isn't even a "you failed the spellcraft roll by X amount so you think they cast something different".(though that would be a fine way around it as a houserule, but would also require the DM to roll it in secret..)
How that interacts with you telling your buddies it isn't real is more wishy-washy since its up to the DM to determine whether or not they get the bonus and to what extent you are able to communicate it to them in time.
-S
I don't mean that you will bluff that you are casting a different spell. Imagine this: You have 2 casters Max and Ivan. Ivan is Invisable. Max casts Major Image but does not create anything. Ivan casts a silent Summon Monster to summon a Hound Archon. Are you now sure that the hound archon is an illusion? What happens when you ignore it?
If i can set up a situation where your "proof that it is an illusion" is not actually correct, then it is not proof.
As to your example with the stage magician: I'm not talking about being affected by something you know to be an illusion, but about a canny illusionist tricking you into thinking a real thing is an illusion. This is because seeing an illusion being cast and seeing an effect manifest are not casually linked. They are at best correlated.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Selgard
I look at it like any other skill. It's not always I know/don't know failure is not described.
For example, let's say someone asks for the first US election where the winner of the Electoral College didn't win the popular vote. Lots of people are going to fail their Knowledge (history) check and say Bush v Gore. Not only did they get it wrong, they think they know the right answer.
Likewise, the spellcraft roll may result in the character thinking they know the spell. They may fail and be sure they know the spell. "Ah, he's casting hast-*boom* oops *cough* fireball."
Proof of an illusion's true nature would be a case of something like walking into a mass of whirling, illusionary blades created by major image and not getting cut to shreds. It mainly applies to figments and glamers, where a character can interact with the illusion and not be affected as would be expected.
A phantasm that is a personalized mental impression is something different altogether. Just because a character thinks someone is casting phantasmal web on him based on his knowledge (a Spellcraft check) does not mean he has irrefutable proof that the illusion is not real. The webs and spiders crawling all over him would be as real as his mind could imagine, and could reasonably make the character doubt his initial identification. He was expecting an illusion so should gain the +4 bonus on his saving throw, but since it is all in the character's mind there is no external illusion for him to interact with and get proof of it not being real.
I think Mathew Morris has it. I'm going with that.
Sorcerer casts phantasmal web.
Wizard uses spell craft, gets the +4.
Makes save: "Ok, I know it's an illusion. Focus, work past it, fireball."
Fails save: "Ok, I know that was an illusion, Focus, work past it... AHHHHHHHH CRAP!!!!!! SPIDERS!!!!!! It's not an illusion, I must have misidentified the spell! GET THEM OFF GET THEM OFF!!!!!!!!"
Wouldn't it be more like...
@Selgard
I look at it like any other skill. It's not always I know/don't know failure is not described.
For example, let's say someone asks for the first US election where the winner of the Electoral College didn't win the popular vote. Lots of people are going to fail their Knowledge (history) check and say Bush v Gore. Not only did they get it wrong, they think they know the right answer.
Likewise, the spellcraft roll may result in the character thinking they know the spell. They may fail and be sure they know the spell. "Ah, he's casting hast-*boom* oops *cough* fireball."
Even if you assume for the moment that failing a check means you mislabel the spell- that doesn't address the issue that if you *succeed* at the check you *auto pass all illusion saving throws*. And its not exactly difficult to get your SC up high enough to never miss a roll against a CR appropriate spell effect.
"thats an illusion". You know it, because you know it. If you, the DM, choose to say "you know it but don't really know it because you could have been wrong so you don't actually know it" effectively removes the vast majority of the use from the skill. Keep in mind- this *also* would prevent you from counter spelling it without just using Dispel Magic.
"well I know its fireball but I don't /know/ its fireball so how can I use a fireball to counter spell his fireball when it may not really be fireball?"
There are unintended consequences to adding things to the rules that aren't there- it messes with other subsystems in the rules.
Pass: "Its fireball"
fail: "You have no idea:
Houserule: "its lightning bolt" as a fireball flies in your face.
-S
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@Selgard
The point is that a spellcraft check is not irrefutable proof. At best, you know that an illusion was cast somewhere nearby You don't know if the mega-raptor in-front of you is an illusion. Personally, I'd give scaling save bonuses depending on how plausible an illusion is. A mage you know is low level Illusions a Fendish Dire Rat: no bonus. He illusions a Mega-raptor: +2.
"thats an illusion". You know it, because you know it. If you, the DM, choose to say "you know it but don't really know it because you could have been wrong so you don't actually know it" effectively removes the vast majority of the use from the skill. Keep in mind- this *also* would prevent you from counter spelling it without just using Dispel Magic.
This is a bit of a straw-man. Spellcraft has more uses than just trivializing illusions. I'd say that is not even its primary use.
Also, you are mixing the casting of a spell and the spell effect. When I succeed on a spellcraft check, I know that the target is casting an illusion and can counter-spell normally. When I see a Balor appear, I don't know that that effect is an illusion. It would give me good reason to not run away from the caster, maybe, but it is neither "Irrefutable proof," nor is it "Someone who passed a save and communicates it to me." So qualifies for none of the special rules under "Will Disbelief."