Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

On cavaliers, mounts, reach, handle animal and ride checks (and one or two other things)


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok, here's the thing:

One of my players is likely to go cavalier and will be riding into battle. Now my problem is, since the mount is large (human riding a horse), does that mean the space taken up is 2x2? What about the cavalier's lance, does that mean that when he charges, he'll end up with the horse ADJACENT to the target? Since the lance has reach, will that mean that there'll be 5' of space between the mount and the target or does that reach start from a different point within the 2x2 (meaning the horse will still be adjacent to the target)? Also, since the horse is large, does it have reach (I can't imagine it does though)?

Now, starting the cavaliers round, he'd roll a ride check to get the horse to move for his charge attack, right? What about handle animal to get it to commit the charge (while he's riding it obviously)? Now what's combat mount/trained for combat mean exactly? Is it that package from the handle animal section?

Let's say the horse is now within melee range of a target and that target hits the horse, is there a ride check? Does the horse take it without reaction? On ride-by-attack, it says you can move after a charge (continuing a straight line), but wouldn't that move you through the enemy's space (incurring an AoO)?

Also, a ranger/druid can get his companion to do whatever it's been trained to do (such as attack, work or stop attacking) with a free action and no roll, whereas an action it's not trained to do is at DC10, correct? So if a companion attacks a foe and it (the foe) yields, that actually means you have to give the companion a handle animal check to stop attacking (I mainly ask because neither I nor my friends have ever had animal companions in anything other than 4e, which treats them seperate PCs apparently)?

If there's a ranger in the party, is there ANY reason a cavalier should take handle animal? If the ranger can train the horse for different tricks and the cavalier uses the ride check when in combat, then what benefits would there be for taking handle animal for the cavalier?

Also, on knowledge checks, suppose a guy has all day or even a week/fortnight/month(s) to check out a library for information, should I treat it as a take 20? Since it'll also be a month, if I DO make it into die rolls, should I allow several?

Additionally, when would a companion/mount make their attacks or actions, on rounds for themselves or is it their master's round?

Sorry for the giant wall of text, but any help would be much appreciated.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually, could someone also please explain how range increments work?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
cmastah wrote:

Ok, here's the thing:

One of my players is likely to go cavalier and will be riding into battle. Now my problem is, since the mount is large (human riding a horse), does that mean the space taken up is 2x2? What about the cavalier's lance, does that mean that when he charges, he'll end up with the horse ADJACENT to the target? Since the lance has reach, will that mean that there'll be 5' of space between the mount and the target or does that reach start from a different point within the 2x2 (meaning the horse will still be adjacent to the target)? Also, since the horse is large, does it have reach (I can't imagine it does though)?

1a&d. Yes, the horse takes up 2x2 squares (10 ft by 10 ft). Its reach is, however, only 5 ft (5ft / 10 ft reach is the main difference between size category large (tall) and large (long) - as this table shows).

1b&c. The Mounted Combat rules say that "For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat", which means that you effectively count as possessing every square that your mount possesses, and that your reach is effectively enlarged by 5 ft.
Therefore, your second assumption is correct: if you make a mounted charge with a lance (or other reach weapon), the mount itself ends up with one free 5 ft square between itself and your target.

Quote:
Now, starting the cavaliers round, he'd roll a ride check to get the horse to move for his charge attack, right? What about handle animal to get it to commit the charge (while he's riding it obviously)? Now what's combat mount/trained for combat mean exactly? Is it that package from the handle animal section?

2a. I'd like to point you to the Ride skill description.

Under Control Mount in Battle, that you only need to make a ride check if your horse is not combat-trained (vs DC 20, as a move action, becomes a full-round action if you fail!)
If it is, you don't have to roll, and you can have it move as you want (such as, bringing you into attack distance). (Out of battle, no checks are needed to move around.)
However, if you don't have a free hand to control it, you need to make a ride check vs a DC of 5 (basically autosucceed, doesn't take an action) as it is said under Guide with Knees.
If your horse is combat-trained, you can also direct it to attack (with its natural attack) in addition to any attacks you might make (free action, under Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount).

2b,c&d. I'd say that since you are definitely riding the animal, you have to use the ride skill if you want it to do anything more than moving.
Anyway, if you want to use the Handle Animal skill, you have to consider that it takes a move action (and a check vs DC 10) to have the animal do a trick it has learned, and a full round action (check vs DC 25) to have it do a trick it hasn't learned.
The only tricks a riding animal has learned by default are "come", "heel" and "stay", none of which are applicable if you're sitting on top of it. A mount with the combat-trained purpose (or "trick package") knows the tricks "attack", "defend", "down" and "guard" in addition.
So the conclusion is: about the only thing you could do with animal training is having a mount without the "attack" trick attack an enemy (but it's a full-round action to command it), as a combat-trained mount can be told to do so as a free action (see above).

Quote:
Let's say the horse is now within melee range of a target and that target hits the horse, is there a ride check? Does the horse take it without reaction? On ride-by-attack, it says you can move after a charge (continuing a straight line), but wouldn't that move you through the enemy's space (incurring an AoO)?

3a&b. There is only a ride check to avoid a hit if you have the Mounted Combat feat - a cavalier will have it, but it's only once per round (as an immediate action, vs the attacker's attack roll).

3c. The Ride-by Attack feat says "You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack." (Besides, depending how you line up your charge, you wouldn't necessarily have to move trough his square - you could probably move past him, only moving through his threatened squares.)
The resolving is somewhat similar to making an Overrun (without feats) that your target automatically avoids.

You could, btw, take the feats Improved Overrun, Trample and Charge Through. That way, you can make an overrun as a free action while charging, without provoking an attack of opportunity, and your opponent can't choose to avoid you.

Quote:
Also, a ranger/druid can get his companion to do whatever it's been trained to do (such as attack, work or stop attacking) with a free action and no roll, whereas an action it's not trained to do is at DC10, correct? So if a companion attacks a foe and it (the foe) yields, that actually means you have to give the companion a handle animal check to stop attacking (I mainly ask because neither I nor my friends have ever had animal companions in anything other than 4e, which treats them seperate PCs apparently)?

4a. You still have to make a roll. The Link ability (under the Animal Companion rules) doesn't change that, and it also doesn't directly change the DC. It does, however, give you a +4 circumstance bonus (so handling (free action) is now effectively vs DC 6, and pushing (move action) vs DC 21), and your companion/mount will have most tricks learned (the Cavalier's mount is automatically combat-trained).

4b. Well, actually yes. There's the While that might be a situational DM's decision, there's the "Down" trick (included in the combat training package) for exactly that situation, so you'd have to make a handle animal check. But, considering the iterative way Pathfinder handles combat, there's one potential problem: if we're talking about a mount, you can command it, since your mount acts on your iniative count, simultaenous to you - but if it's an animal companion that acts on its own initiative count, you're technically out of luck (if it's not your turn, you can't give orders). As a GM, I'd probably allow you to shout "DOWN!" anyway.

Quote:
If there's a ranger in the party, is there ANY reason a cavalier should take handle animal? If the ranger can train the horse for different tricks and the cavalier uses the ride check when in combat, then what benefits would there be for taking handle animal? If the ranger can train the horse for different tricks and the cavalier uses the ride check when in combat, then what benefits would there be for taking handle animal for the cavalier?

5. The reason would be "fluff". I'd say that a cavalier should at least know the basics of how to deal with his mount (how to train/command it, how to attend to it), even if he may not need the skill mechanically - putting one or two points in the skill, maybe up to five over the course of his career, just feels "right".

Well, another reason to put more points into it might be "time of the ranger". Teaching an animal a specific trick takes one week, training it for a purpose even longer.

Quote:
Also, on knowledge checks, suppose a guy has all day or even a week/fortnight/month(s) to check out a library for information, should I treat it as a take 20? Since it'll also be a month, if I DO make it into die rolls, should I allow several?

6. Uh... The taking 10 / 20 rules could certainly apply.

Realistically, the maximal result would depend on the quality of the library (you probably won't find anything about Demon Lord Baalzebul's secret bastard that lived four millenia ago in a library about modern art), but you could as well give them a bonus on the check as you see fit (like a +2 for craft check tools) when they're in the right library.

Quote:
Additionally, when would a companion/mount make their attacks or actions, on rounds for themselves or is it their master's round?

7. For a mount, it's specified: it "acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move." A companion that is not used as a mount technically acts on its own initiative count, but most groups rule that it acts right before or after its master, for simplicity's sake.

Quote:
Sorry for the giant wall of text, but any help would be much appreciated.

You're welcome! :)

Edit/Addendum:

cmastah wrote:
Actually, could someone also please explain how range increments work?
Sure. The explanation is somewhat hidden. You can find it under Weapon Qualities in the Weapons part of the Equipment rules and describe it as follows:
d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Range: Any attack at more than this distance is penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or fraction thereof) of distance to the target. For example, a dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25 feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot to 10 range increments.

Does that suffice?

PS: If there's anything else you need help with... I'm always trying to help.

PPS: Did I already tell you how much I like http://www.d20pfsrd.com ? It got everything the official paizo prd got, but I feel that it's faster and easier to navigate and search. If something's in the rules, you'll find it on that page. ;)


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hey man, thanks for the info! :D

There was one more question on my mind, suppose the party faces up against foes they don't recognize (I'm planning on being VERY vague about all the monsters the party encounters so that they'd roll knowledge checks), how much information do I reveal on a successful knowledge check?

Thank you for your help :)

EDIT: Also thanks for the link, I'm at work right now so it's blocked, but I'll definitely check it out back home :)


The Knowledge Skill description says

Quote:
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

If you pass the check, I think you should get "a bit" (+1 per 5 above DC) that you don't already know just by looking at the creature.

Depending on the creature, such "a bit" could be one of the "Special Quality" entries, a special sense it possesses, an elemental resistance/immunity/weakness, the material/alignment that penetrates its DR, which saving throw/AC type/CMD is the lowest...
But of course also stuff like standard behaviour, like telling them wether the creature will normally go for whoever shouts at it/tries to flee/smells of blood, wether it will leave its lair to follow them or loses interest as soon as they get out of its sight, wether it is a solitary living creature or if they have to be ready for more of it...
That means you could need some collective rolls to remember everything important.

Oh, btw, I found another bit regarding the library thing, also under the skill description:

Quote:
You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.

So yeah. Basically what I said earlier. ;)

Shadow Lodge

I thought it said somewhere that horses used a 2x1 space, not 2x2.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
I thought it said somewhere that horses used a 2x1 space, not 2x2.

That's how things were in 3.5 with 'long' creatures. However, that's no longer the case. All large creatures are 2x2 but 'long' is represented by a creature's reach.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cyberwolf2xs wrote:
The Knowledge Skill description says
Quote:
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

If you pass the check, I think you should get "a bit" (+1 per 5 above DC) that you don't already know just by looking at the creature.

Depending on the creature, such "a bit" could be one of the "Special Quality" entries, a special sense it possesses, an elemental resistance/immunity/weakness, the material/alignment that penetrates its DR, which saving throw/AC type/CMD is the lowest...
But of course also stuff like standard behaviour, like telling them wether the creature will normally go for whoever shouts at it/tries to flee/smells of blood, wether it will leave its lair to follow them or loses interest as soon as they get out of its sight, wether it is a solitary living creature or if they have to be ready for more of it...
That means you could need some collective rolls to remember everything important.

Oh, btw, I found another bit regarding the library thing, also under the skill description:

Quote:
You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.
So yeah. Basically what I said earlier. ;)

Thank you, that's actually perfect. I wanted the chance for them to identify outsiders and specific types of them, along with weakness and special qualities that would be important to battle (such as a troll's regeneration). The truth is I'm going to be VERY vague about every creature they encounter:

'You see a POWERFUL dragon before you!'
'What color is it?'
'the POWERFUL color! Roll for it damn it!'

Dragons may be well known like goblins, but there's a reason they added the '5+CR' DC along with the line 'can be used untrained with any DC <=10'. Common knowledge to a PC could be wrong compared to player knowledge (a PC might think trolls don't regenerate unless water is applied to its wound (horrifically failed knowledge check) whereas a player would know regardless of what the PC would know. I don't know about my other players, but I find reading the bestiary to be quite exciting and inspiring, the repercussion of which is knowing some creature's types, weaknesses and strengths). I want the PC's to act appropriately to creatures they wouldn't recognize, and unless they meet creatures of the same type later, I'd have no problem telling the players what they just faced AFTER the encounter.


cmastah wrote:

Thank you, that's actually perfect. I wanted the chance for them to identify outsiders and specific types of them, along with weakness and special qualities that would be important to battle (such as a troll's regeneration). The truth is I'm going to be VERY vague about every creature they encounter:

'You see a POWERFUL dragon before you!'
'What color is it?'
'the POWERFUL color! Roll for it damn it!'

Dragons may be well known like goblins, but there's a reason they added the '5+CR' DC along with the line 'can be used untrained with any DC <=10'. Common knowledge to a PC could be wrong compared to player knowledge (a PC might think trolls don't regenerate unless water is applied to its wound (horrifically failed knowledge check) whereas a player would know regardless of what the PC would know. I don't know about my other players, but I find reading the bestiary to be quite exciting and inspiring, the repercussion of which is knowing some creature's types, weaknesses and strengths). I want the PC's to act appropriately to creatures they wouldn't recognize, and unless they meet creatures of the same type later, I'd have no problem telling the players what they just faced AFTER the encounter.

Well. Yeah, it can pe problematic trying to enforce separation of player and character knowledge.

Of course, the characers see which color the dragon is, but if you tell them, for most people, player knowledge kicks in and suddenly the players know much more than they should.
And just not telling them the color until they succeed in a check is probably easier than telling them and saying "but you don't know what that means!"

donato wrote:
Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
I thought it said somewhere that horses used a 2x1 space, not 2x2.
That's how things were in 3.5 with 'long' creatures. However, that's no longer the case. All large creatures are 2x2 but 'long' is represented by a creature's reach.

Exactly.

However, just to make things a bit more complicated, there is a way to let your horse use a 2x1 space again... ^^
The Cavalry Formation Teamwork Feat lets you and your mount overlap with others (max two creatures per square). Two horses plus riders next to each other in a 2x2 space -> effectively 2x1 per horse&rider.

PS (Time to rant!): I HATE that there isn't an equivalent feat for infantry formations...
Yeah, yeah, you're mysteriously covering every square inch of your 5 ft square simultaenously, but a shield wall (as per the teamwork feat) with effectively 1m-wide gaps between the soldiers? Seriously?

Andoran

donato wrote:
Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
I thought it said somewhere that horses used a 2x1 space, not 2x2.
That's how things were in 3.5 with 'long' creatures. However, that's no longer the case. All large creatures are 2x2 but 'long' is represented by a creature's reach.

I think you mean in 3.0. All large creatures in 3.5 are 2x2.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / On cavaliers, mounts, reach, handle animal and ride checks (and one or two other things) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.