I do not think you can, but I cannot find the rule that says you cannot. Anybody out there have some better rules-fu today?
I have a monk with greater trip and improved ki throw. I hope you can since it would be fun to pick up a guy and start tripping him back and forth like a rag doll. hahaha
I'm not even sure what you're asking here. To use the combat maneuver Trip is to attempt to apply the prone condition to an opponent. You don't need to apply the prone condition to something(or someone) that is already prone. If you want to kick somebody while they're down, just attack them.
Tripping a character causes the character to gain the prone condition ("knocked prone").
Causing a character to gain the prone condition ("lying on the ground") that is already prone causes the character to gain. . . the prone condition. But the question is: can a character who is already prone be "knocked prone"?
If you can be "knocked prone" while being prone, then yes, you could cause everyone to take an attack of opportunity against the tripped opponent. However, knocking someone down that is already down doesn't make much sense. How "down" can you go beyond prone? I think by virtue of common sense, you can't really become more prone than prone.
So no, you have to actually cause a character to be "knocked prone" to cause any character to actually become tripped.
You cannot trip a prone opponent for the same reason that you cannot blind a blind man or deafen a deaf man; the quality or condition that you are targetting is not present.
As far as rules go, the SRD states that standing up removes the Prone condition. So unless you are somehow forcing them to stand (a move equivalent action), then tripping them again, it is not possible.
Here is Jason Bulmahn on tripping someone while they're prone.
Can't trip someone while they're already tripped. However, if you wanted to kick them while they were down that would be an unarmed strike. Keeping them down would mean going into a grapple with them and pinning them.
Wrong question, already said that I know about that. That is about using the AoO from standing up to knock them prone again, which you can't. This is about tripping someone who is still prone.
I extrapolated from the ruling that you can't trip someone until they're no longer prone. It's a binary condition: you're either prone or you're not prone. Isn't that like killing someone while they're dead?
In general, it's assumed that if PfRPG doesn't specifically call out a rule as changed, it's the same as in 3.5. But that's an assumption, AFAIK, not a codified rule coming down from the designers.
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Can't trip someone while they're already tripped. However, if you wanted to kick them while they were down that would be an unarmed strike. Keeping them down would mean going into a grapple with them and pinning them.
This question has already been answered quite succinctly and accurately.
It's worth noting that this was a discussion and thoroughly answered during the 3.5 run in the FAQ that is probably still available on WotC website.
Sage Advice clearly stated that you cannot trip a prone individual.
This was to prevent a trip-monkey character to keep a character in the prone position w/ his AoO each time they tried to stand up.
However attacking the prone individual w/ an AoO while they are standing up still provides the +4 bonus on the attack due to being prone (since the AoO takes place prior the action that provoked it).
Robert
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You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.actually reading his quote better, he only said that tripping had no effect, not that you couldn't do it. If you have greater trip, a successful, but no effect trip would set off the AoO's....maybe? or house rules at that point...or dev interjecdtion!
Now hold on take a step back, and think this through for a moment....
a_) Attempting to trip has no effect.
b_) Improved trip allows an attack of opportunity by others around if a trip attempt is successful.
c_) b is an effect of tripping attempt
d_) if a and c are true, then b is null and void.
Unless you can consciously convince yourself that the results of b is not an "effect", then the answer to your question is: You cannot do what you're suggesting to be done. It would only be an abuse of the rules.
@Robert, this isn't about the AoO from standing up, also, as the quote from jason says (unless he clears it up later), you can trip someone who is prone, but has "no effect". Need to find out if that "No effect" means it wasn't succesful or not...because the opponent still ends up in the prone position
Fair enough - but the physics still apply. You're prone, so an attmept to trip again has "no effect". Thus any feat/attack option etc that is triggered when there is a "trip effect" would be irrelevant since tripping a prone target has no effect.
Robert
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No. And you know that. No cheese.
It seems to me all of this is un-nececary rules fenagling. Look at it this way.
Bob Trips Sally.
Sally has Two options, Remain Prone accepting the Penalties of being prone and denying bob the ability to Trip her again. By remaining Prone she should be able to Denie bob /any/ benefit from his trip related feats.
Ie if Bob Larry and George all threaten Sally. Bob shouldnt be able to Just Trip Sally adnoseum while shes on the ground prompting AOO
we'll say bob is a Monk (i know monks dont usually have greater trip but works for my example)
Larry and george both have dex 16 and combat reflexes.
Essentially what the Op wants to do is this
Bob trips Sally, aoo is provoked. Bob Larry and George all get their Aoo. (sucks for Sally but thats the game)
Sally is now prone
bob Trips Sally again, oh look 3 more attacks
bob Trips Sally a third time.
Assuming Sally is still alive shes now gotten hit 9 times from 3 trips from bob.
If hes a monk worth his salt hes got at least 1 more full Trip and 2 more weaker trips left in him or more.
Pretty sure none of this was Intended. Once Sally hits the ground any benefits from tripping her should disappear.
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is the actual chains I'm thinking are in contention right now.
a) attempt to trip prone target occurs
b) tripper wins CMB vs CMD check
c) target stays prone
d) nothing happens because Greater Trip didn't activate from a successful trip
That one is more correct.
To be precise however:
a) attempting to trip prone target occurs
b) tripper wins CMB Vs CMB check
c) Has NO EFFECT
d) Because there was no effect, allies are not afforded attacks of opportunity.
e) "a" was a wasted action.
Hence you "can't" trip a prone target. You can take the action all you want, but why?
Doing so is the equivalent of casting Ressurection on a living target. You CAN do it in theory. But why?
Robert
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Essentially what the Op wants to do is this
Right. We all know what the OP is trying to do, common sense withstanding.
It is without a doubt rules abuse and cheese by trying to split hairs between "Can't be done" and "can attmept - but has no effect"
My gut tells me the OP knows that he can't pull this off and just trying to find away around it. If he's the DM - let him do what he wants. But it's certainly not the spirit of the feat and how it works.
Robert
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Chuck Norris can trip a prone person.
Well, I may be the only one here who thinks otherwise, but I'm cursed by the fact that I cannot help but read systems from a mathematical point of view.
Nowhere in the rules for tripping does it say that you cannot attempt to trip a character who has the prone condition. In almost every circumstance, however, nothing happens. If the attack is successful the target is given the prone condition which he already had.
As Jason points out in the quote above, you can use an AoO to trip a character as he tries to stand up but since your AoO happens before he stands it doesn't really help (the character can still stand up using a move action after your AoO).
Now, the Greater Trip feat does cause one other effect when you trip an opponent - it gives everyone else an AoO against the target. I see no reason why you can't "trip" an opponent who is already prone and gain this benefit - particularly when Jason has already confirmed that you are allowed to use the trip combat manuevar against prone opponents.
Well, I may be the only one here who thinks otherwise, but I'm cursed by the fact that I cannot help but read systems from a mathematical point of view.
Nowhere in the rules for tripping does it say that you cannot attempt to trip a character who has the prone condition. In almost every circumstance, however, nothing happens. If the attack is successful the target is given the prone condition which he already had.
As Jason points out in the quote above, you can use an AoO to trip a character as he tries to stand up but since your AoO happens before he stands it doesn't really help (the character can still stand up using a move action after your AoO).
Now, the Greater Trip feat does cause one other effect when you trip an opponent - it gives everyone else an AoO against the target. I see no reason why you can't "trip" an opponent who is already prone and gain this benefit - particularly when Jason has already confirmed that you are allowed to use the trip combat manuevar against prone opponents.
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
I think you're reading that wrong. He is specifically saying you can attempt to trip a person that is standing up(or attempting to remove the prone condition) from prone, but even in that case it "has no effect." In the OP's question he's asking if you can trip someone that is already down, and not attempting to get back up. If it has "no effect" when they're trying to stand up, how would it have any effect when they aren't even making an attempt to remove the prone condition?
Kick em with a knockback, thus causing them to move, triggering AoOs...or pull them via the new pull maneuver...triggering AoOs. Whips are good for a pull maneuver...heh...or at least they should be...wrap it around their leg and tug...CHOP CRUNCH CHOP!
Maybe I'm just being silluh
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Now, the Greater Trip feat does cause one other effect when you trip an opponent - it gives everyone else an AoO against the target. I see no reason why you can't "trip" an opponent who is already prone and gain this benefit - particularly when Jason has already confirmed that you are allowed to use the trip combat manuevar against prone opponents.
It has no effect. That has already been ceded.
You can't activate an ability that requires a specific event/effect as a precursor if there was no event in the first place.
It requires target "to be tripped" in order for the feat to work.
Since "tripping" is an effect (resulting in a "condition" - which in this case is "prone" condition), and "attempting to trip a prone target" has NO EFFECT, there is in fact no "tripping" happening in that instance.
If there's no tripping happening, the Greater Trip has not been activated to take advantage of.
Action: Trip
Effect: Tripped
Condition: Prone
If already Prone, action results in "no effect". Condition is unchanged. Effect is NONE. Greater Trip is activate only w/ trip effect - not w/ "no effect".
Robert
Creative Director
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You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.
I have read where it is said tripping an already prone person does nothing. That is not true. If you have Ki Throw feat tripping someone allows you to move them
Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures.
If I trip and ki throw a guy onto a table shouldn't I be able to trip them again then throw them onto the floor? If I have another attack trip them a third time and throw them over the bar. As long as I have reach to all those squares?
So if the person tossing the guy around like a rag doll had greater trip the greater trip would trigger on the succesful trips. While the ki throw allows you to toss the guy around like a rag doll.
So tripping a person that is already prone can have a benefit, you can move them with ki throw. Even if you do not have greater trip moving them into a flanking position, or tossing them into a pit is very helpful.
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@Mojorat:
Not quite right, but close:
bob and larry threaten sally
bob trips sally
sally goes prone and provokes AoO's from bob and larry because of greater trip
bob trips prone sally again larry takes AoO normally
sally goes prone and provokes AoO's from bob and larry because of greater trip
bob trips prone sally again larry takes AoO normallyturn ends with sally prone, and bob and larry have no AoO's till their next turns. combat continues
Not quite right, but kinda close:
CORRECTION:
bob and larry threaten sally
bob trips sally
sally goes prone and provokes AoO's from bob and larry because of greater trip
bob attempts to trip prone sally again but although he can attempt it, he can't actually trip her - cuz that would be an effect and sally knows that attempting to trip her again has no effect. Trip fails.
Sally thinks bob is silly
larry slaps bob for wasting his action
bob makes AoO on Larry because larry didn't have Improved Unarmed Strike when he slapped bob.
Sally thinks they're both silly
sally stays prone until her turn provoking AoO from larry when she stands up because bob already used his on larry - but larry's AoO cannot be a trip attempt - that would be silly again.
Bob can now try to trip sally again on Bob's turn, resulting in more AoOs from bob and larry if trip is successful. Which Sally does not think is silly.
Robert
You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.
I beg to differ.
If a goblin was sleeping on guard duty and I cast the sleep spell on them or a witch uses her slumber hex on them, you are in fact putting a sleeping creature to sleep. The sleep being deeper. Regular sleep you can be awaken by noise and light, while the sleep spell and slumber hex are specific on how it differs from normal sleep.
...Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not.
The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage.
So why can't a guy with ki throw pick a guy up off the floor and toss him up on the table with a trip attack?
You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.
I was thinking further on this and thought of the following.
You can poison someone who is already poisoned, same poison increases duration while different poison adds a new poison to save against. You could have 6 different poisons one for each ability score on somone at the same time.
You can curse someone who is already cursed. You can have mummy rot, the curse spell, lycanthropy, etc. All curses on you at the same time. Heck I think you can have all three variations of the curse spell on you at the same time if cast 3 times and you fail 3 saves.
Therefore can you trip someone who is already tripped? Trip never says the creature must be standing only that you have to succeed with the CMB vs CMD and cannot be the following types of creatures: "...oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures..."
A human laying on the ground is not an ooze, he has legs, and is not flying.
A human laying on the ground is not an ooze, he has legs, and is not flying.
Yes, but he can't be "knocked" prone while prone. If you aren't knocked prone by a trip attempt, you aren't tripped.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone.
You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.I beg to differ.
If a goblin was sleeping on guard duty and I cast the sleep spell on them or a witch uses her slumber hex on them, you are in fact putting a sleeping creature to sleep. The sleep being deeper. Regular sleep you can be awaken by noise and light, while the sleep spell and slumber hex are specific on how it differs from normal sleep.
...Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not.The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage.So why can't a guy with ki throw pick a guy up off the floor and toss him up on the table with a trip attack?
Following your logic, he can't for two reasons:
1. In terms of the sleep/slumber issue, it's a matter of being asleep as opposed to being affected by "magical sleep," which is mechanically a separate thing, because as we know, elves are immune to magical sleep but they might be asleep anytime they'd like to take a nap.
There is no "tripped" versus "magically tripped," nor "prone" versus "magically prone." Magic slumber essentially applies a new magical condition, even if not one well-defined. Tripping followed by more tripping does not add a magical effect of any kind.
Should James Jacobs probably not have included sleep in his example? Yes. But, if I may presume, he was addressing a different issue of logic---while indeed, magical sleep may make a sleeping person sleep more deeply, it doesn't make them wake up and then fall back asleep again--they're already asleep. The general gist of what he said makes sense--common sense, that is.
2. A guy cannot pick a guy up and throw him onto a table with a trip attack because he's not tripping him. A trip attack knocks someone down.
You can't pick someone up by knocking them down. If I have to explain why, then this is just a silly conversation, I'm sorry.
For the record, were I your GM and you said, "I want my monk to pick this guy up and throw him onto the table" I would have you in fact initiate a grapple check because your first action is to grab the person---grabbing has to happen before any lifting or throwing. If you want to grab someone, you're grappling him, yes?
Once you have successfully grappled the target, the next round you could lift him, which would simply be a function of Strength--if you have adequate Strength to lift the fellow overhead, you can do so (a move action). I would then have you make a Bull Rush attempt as your standard action, because mechanically, what you are trying to do is move your target several feet to a nearby area (the table). Bull Rush (and very much not Trip) is the CM that allows you to move people several feet back. If your check is adequate to get him into the table, you toss him into the table.
Given the specific circumstances, I would probably also allow your target a Reflex or Acrobatics check to try and land upright. Not because there is a standing rule for it, but because it makes sense and I'm the GM, I get to make calls like that. That's what GMs are for. If he failed, he would be prone, simply because that makes sense, not because you made a trip attack.
If of course he lands upright, on your next turn you could then attempt to render him prone onto the table by then, and only then, making a trip attack. :)
I'm sure other GMs would have other solutions--perhaps simpler ones ("make a touch attack, a Strength check, and roll to hit the table," for example). I doubt few of them would involve tripping.
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone.Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
There is your answer. Yes you can trip a creature who is alread prone, but it will have no effect. Since it has no effect, you, in essence, did NOT trip the creature.
For instance, if you had an ability that let you teleport when you cou de grassed a creature.... Could you teleport by cou de grassing a dead creature? Yes you can cou de gras the creature, but it has no effect... meaning no teleport.
This is also a good place for a DM to bring in the spirit of the rules.
Effects (such as attacks of opportunity on trips) Happen when you SUCCEED at a trip... not from the simple fact that you can try a trip.
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(Heehee.)
How did a whole page of posts happen from this question?
1. Can you make someone sit down who's already sitting?
2. Can you make someone lay down who's already laying down?
... ad infinitum
Seems pretty clear to me. A player that tried this IMC would find out it didn't work. And if they asked ahead of time, I'd turn the question around: do YOU think it should work? On the party members, for example?
(I still find it amusing how long this thread got!)
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Okay, so we're basically nitpicking a statement that was not directly used for this question. "No effect" could apply to trip attack as a whole or just about being prone. Until we hear something from a dev or someone else has something from another source.
I think we're beating a dead horse atm...help! oh moderator gods! i beseech thee for assistance. Please explain to us your words of mighty wisdom and it's cold where I am, think you can make it warmer?
You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.
There you have it - Done. Posted it about 12 posts ago.
EDIT: At this point it's up to you to believe he's telling the truth and go with it, or not. Ultimately you have no legs to stand on w/ this issue. But the good news is that if you have no legs, you're not standing and thus you can't be tripped.
Happy Gaming
Robert
2. A guy cannot pick a guy up and throw him onto a table with a trip attack because he's not tripping him. A trip attack knocks someone down.
You can't pick someone up by knocking them down. If I have to explain why, then this is just a silly conversation, I'm sorry.
+1
(I still find it amusing how long this thread got!)
Me too!!!!!111!!!1
It's a GM call, then. Like so much else in the game.
I prefer to call it as "You can't trip someone who's already on the ground, because he's already there."
The effects of trip are to make someone prone. If they're already prone, why would you even bother? Makes no sense.
While the normal effect of trip is to make someone prone that is not the whole story.
With Ki Throw when you trip someone you can knock them prone in ANY square you threaten.
Ki Throw (Combat)
Your physical control and mastery of momentum allows you to throw enemies.Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures.
Special: A monk may gain Ki Throw as a bonus feat at 10th level. A monk with this feat can affect creatures larger than his own size by spending 1 ki point per size category difference.
This can be used for many things.
Say the Monk in the party is enlarged and defending a helpless lady from being mugged in an ally. She had triped while running and was crying for help when the monk drank a potion of enlarge person and rushed into the ally.
The monk can reach her on the ground surronded by 8 thugs ready to all stab her in the face.
The monk thinks this is ok I will save her, he moves forward and trip attacks HER. She is within his reach and the monk throws her up on the roof of the 10' building he is standing next to. There by getting her out of harms way.
The monk then gleefully says "It is clobbering time"
While the lady swoons and says "My hero"
This is triping a prone person and moving them due to a feat that says if you trip them you can put them in any square you threaten instead of there own.
James does that make sense why you may want to trip an already prone creature?
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if you trip them you can put them in any square you threaten instead of there own.
But you didn't trip them if they were already prone; so you couldn't throw them (as it relates to that feat).
Thematically and cinematically I see what you're saying and doing.
Mechanically, I think the previous post about "grab + grapple + throw" is more appropriate.
Robert
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(Heehee.)
How did a whole page of posts happen from this question?
1. Can you make someone sit down who's already sitting?
2. Can you make someone lay down who's already laying down?
... ad infinitumSeems pretty clear to me. A player that tried this IMC would find out it didn't work. And if they asked ahead of time, I'd turn the question around: do YOU think it should work? On the party members, for example?
(I still find it amusing how long this thread got!)
1) Debatable. Can you shove him from one chair into a neighboring chair? Like in those bench seats, can you force someone to slide over a seat without their cooperation?
2) Log rolling. Can you cause someone lying on their stomachs to be rolled over onto their back, or vice versa? Will they be prone both before and after the roll? Can the roll cause other events around them, due to their non-self-controlled movement to occur?
As to being able to trip someone standing up, I guess I don't understand why it isn't possible. As they stand, you knock their hands and/or feet out from under them as they rise, knocking them prone again. Maybe I have trouble with binary effects...
It's a GM call, then. Like so much else in the game.
I prefer to call it as "You can't trip someone who's already on the ground, because he's already there."
The effects of trip are to make someone prone. If they're already prone, why would you even bother? Makes no sense.
While the normal effect of trip is to make someone prone that is not the whole story.
With Ki Throw when you trip someone you can knock them prone in ANY square you threaten.
Forget all the other mechanics and realize that an attempt to "trip" someone is an attempt to add the Prone condition. Moving them into another square you threaten is PART OF THE TRIP. You are moving a person from a standing position into a prone position, and using your kick-arse monk skill set to trip them specifically where you want. You cannot add the Prone condition to someone that already has the prone condition.
+12. A guy cannot pick a guy up and throw him onto a table with a trip attack because he's not tripping him. A trip attack knocks someone down.
You can't pick someone up by knocking them down. If I have to explain why, then this is just a silly conversation, I'm sorry.
Guess you have never seen a true master of judo at work, like Gene Lebell.
I would say that guy went up from where he was. That is a great example of what ki throw would be.
If you were curious the guy flying through the air was on the other side of Gene Lebell before he tossed him over his head.
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Say the Monk in the party is enlarged and defending a helpless lady from being mugged in an ally. She had triped while running and was crying for help when the monk drank a potion of enlarge person and rushed into the ally.
The monk can reach her on the ground surronded by 8 thugs ready to all stab her in the face.
The monk thinks this is ok I will save her, he moves forward and trip attacks HER. She is within his reach and the monk throws her up on the roof of the 10' building he is standing next to. There by getting her out of harms way.
The monk then gleefully says "It is clobbering time"
While the lady swoons and says "My hero"
So this helpful monk punts the old lady to the roof top?!? I think that this one calls for the reposition combat maneuver, since it does not require you to either grapple, or make prone and already prone person.
I was never talking about Ki throws. I was talking about trip. Ki throw is a different topic entirely.
Two topics in one thread issue then huh?
Would you say you can Ki Throw someone who was already prone then with a successful trip?
I was thinking further on this and thought of the following.You can poison someone who is already poisoned, same poison increases duration while different poison adds a new poison to save against. You could have 6 different poisons one for each ability score on somone at the same time.
You can curse someone who is already cursed. You can have mummy rot, the curse spell, lycanthropy, etc. All curses on you at the same time. Heck I think you can have all three variations of the curse spell on you at the same time if cast 3 times and you fail 3 saves.
Therefore can you trip someone who is already tripped? Trip never says the creature must be standing only that you have to succeed with the CMB vs CMD and cannot be the following types of creatures: "...oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures..."
A human laying on the ground is not an ooze, he has legs, and is not flying.
Poisons and curses are, ultimately, different issues. There are many, non-exclusive ways to be poisoned or cursed. Those sorts of descriptions of conditions overlap. But prone is essentially prone. How many ways can you be prone at the same time? Or blind? Or deaf?
A modicum of common sense is required here.
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This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.
I've come to realize that that's a massively over-optimistic view. It seems some people just can not deal with rules that have any vague degree of ambiguity. They somehow manage to make the argument that if something isn't explicitly ruled out, it is possible; while on different topics also arguing that if something isn't explicitly included, it can't be.
I look forward to the Pathfinder 2.0 Core Rules PDF version. I doubt there will be a print version, since such a tome would invariable undergo gravitational collapse and suck the entire Earth into the mini-black hole that it creates.