Two-weapon fight, Full-round action, Magus, Spell Combat and precise Strike


Rules Questions


From this Dragon Ball title came my question:

In a full-round action, full attacking you can make the first attack, and you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round.

If you take the pennalty for the attacking with two-weapons (penalty -2), and hit (you kill the enemy), you can forgo the remaining attacks?

You can attacking with the penalty of two-weapons fighting and dont attack with the off hand?

You can forgo any extra attack via high bab? Ex: +13/+7/+2 dont make the attack with +2.

Looking that way, a magus take the penalty like two-weapons and never take the off hand attack (here the magic is cast) via Spell Combat, and Precise Strike (via arcane deed) for precise damage in all attacks... right?


That would fall under the same reason you take the -2 to that first attack even though at that point it's just an attack action. If you want to be able to continue into a full attack option, that first attack needs to be legal for the full attack.

So if you want to spell-combat, and are leading with a normal attack, you would need to put all restrictions and penalties on that first attack. And that's probably lenient.

Might be more correct that you have to declare the spell combat full-round action, since it's not just a full attack that tactical option just isn't available. You could still stop early, to conserve spells or no desired targets in reach, but there'd be no remaining move action to use instead.


The basic of all this is that Full attack and Spell Combat are two different Full Round Actions.

The Full Attack Action allows you to make additional attacks (iterative, haste, two weapon fighting, etc). Taking this action allows you to make the first attack and then forgo all remainaing attack in order to take a move action. Only Full attack Action allows that. IF you decide to two weapon fight as a Full Attack Action, then all your attacks take a -2 to hit penalty.

Spell Combat: this is a different full Round Action that allows you to cast a spell and make all of his attacks but with a -2 to hit penalty. Whether you decide to cast a spell or not, or make only one attack, you still inccur a -2 penalty on all attacks that you amek this round. Contrary to the Full Attack Action, you do not have the luxury of changing to a move action after your first attack. Only a Full Attack Action can do that.

Again, the key here is to understand that although they might share some similarities, Full Attack Action and Spell Combat are two different types of Full Round Actions


Cuttler wrote:

The basic of all this is that Full attack and Spell Combat are two different Full Round Actions.

The Full Attack Action allows you to make additional attacks (iterative, haste, two weapon fighting, etc). Taking this action allows you to make the first attack and then forgo all remainaing attack in order to take a move action. Only Full attack Action allows that. IF you decide to two weapon fight as a Full Attack Action, then all your attacks take a -2 to hit penalty.

Spell Combat: this is a different full Round Action that allows you to cast a spell and make all of his attacks but with a -2 to hit penalty. Whether you decide to cast a spell or not, or make only one attack, you still inccur a -2 penalty on all attacks that you amek this round. Contrary to the Full Attack Action, you do not have the luxury of changing to a move action after your first attack. Only a Full Attack Action can do that.

Again, the key here is to understand that although they might share some similarities, Full Attack Action and Spell Combat are two different types of Full Round Actions

Since an FAQ said that Spell Combat counts as a full attack action for the purposes of haste and such, you might be able to convince your GM to treat it exactly like a full attack action.

You'll want to ask the GM before you try it, though.


Agreed!

The fAQ could be interpretated like that ....

I would be interested to know how it is applied in PFS...


Now i see.

And i could forgo any attack, because i dont want to risc a critial miss with the +2 (like the sample).

And can i use Spell Combat with Precise Strike?


Spell Combat/Precise Strike is debated. Consult with your GM.

Critical failures are not a RAW thing. You miss on a 1, but nothing bad happens as a result of it beyond "you do no damage".


kestral287 wrote:

Spell Combat/Precise Strike is debated. Consult with your GM.

Critical failures are not a RAW thing. You miss on a 1, but nothing bad happens as a result of it beyond "you do no damage".

Can a magus even use precise strike? Arcane Deed doesn't say that your swashbuckler level is equal to your Magus level for the purpose of the deed.


Renlar wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Spell Combat/Precise Strike is debated. Consult with your GM.

Critical failures are not a RAW thing. You miss on a 1, but nothing bad happens as a result of it beyond "you do no damage".

Can a magus even use precise strike? Arcane Deed doesn't say that your swashbuckler level is equal to your Magus level for the purpose of the deed.

And Hex Arcana doesn't say that your witch level is equal to your Magus level for the purposes of the hexes you select.

Sometimes you have to use common sense.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Renlar wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Spell Combat/Precise Strike is debated. Consult with your GM.

Critical failures are not a RAW thing. You miss on a 1, but nothing bad happens as a result of it beyond "you do no damage".

Can a magus even use precise strike? Arcane Deed doesn't say that your swashbuckler level is equal to your Magus level for the purpose of the deed.

And Hex Arcana doesn't say that your witch level is equal to your Magus level for the purposes of the hexes you select.

Sometimes you have to use common sense.

If everyone could agree on what common sense was then I would agree with you, however many of us are forced to follow RAW.

There is a reason that http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdsm?Does-Precise-Strike-work-with-Arcane-Deed has 28 FAQ requests.


So, if you're forced to follow RAW, does that mean you follow the Hexcrafter rules as written, and effectively make the class useless?


_Ozy_ wrote:
So, if you're forced to follow RAW, does that mean you follow the Hexcrafter rules as written, and effectively make the class useless?

Hang on, the "Hex Magus" ability states that "He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level."

Source: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/m agus.html#hexcrafter-(archetype)

Where as Arcane Deed only states "When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level."

I would say that this is not a valid comparison, as "treating your level equal to" is not the same as "as long as someone of the same level could take it".


Then some swashbuckler deed is not allowed for magus? The RAW looks open a lot in that case.

Liberty's Edge

It's heavily debated, the Daring Champion Cavalier archetype has the same problem as a Magus using Arcane Deed for Precise, currently it's ambiguous. A very strict reading of RAW says no, but a very strict readings of RAW isn't always whats right or intended.

It needs an FAQ.


For now I would let the magus use his class level for the deed, he is getting it via a arcana, a class feature after all. Seeing as in "Flamboyant Arcana" they get the name of "Arcane Deed" wrong they may have made a error.


Renlar wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
So, if you're forced to follow RAW, does that mean you follow the Hexcrafter rules as written, and effectively make the class useless?

Hang on, the "Hex Magus" ability states that "He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level."

Source: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/m agus.html#hexcrafter-(archetype)

Where as Arcane Deed only states "When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level."

I would say that this is not a valid comparison, as "treating your level equal to" is not the same as "as long as someone of the same level could take it".

Hex Magus only applies for that one hex at fourth level. Hex Arcana is used for all the other hexes you get, and it has no language about level substitution, just like precise strike.

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