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Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 21 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.



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yes, curious for updates!


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@ Darth Grall (OP):

now, having read all your posts, I'm even more convinced of my first assessment:

You are DM'ing wonderfully.

You are adjudicating (the RAW) poorly (obviously not a concern if everyone in the group knows/expects this, thus my comments below reflect only the RAW).

Let's start with the good news: you've got a good, fun, long-term group, who apparently enjoy playing with each other. They know that running away is an option in your game (!) and that monsters/adversaries aren't just XP fountains. This is a great achievement, let me tell you. Congrats.

However: the bad news is that the mass-dominate effect on the townsfolk, the detect evil/outsider errata concerning the Synthesist and the hallowed->unhallowed site including mysteriously murdered priest (which I think is great set-up and flavor, especially as there are ways to achieve the exact effects you've described within the RAW), seem to be overstepping.

Dominate is a single-target spell. As you've described the scene, I'm having trouble figuring out when the Vampire had 2 minutes to dominate all 20 peasants. Also, how did he dominate the initial peasant (who was, by the sounds of it, inside the church and thus not visible to the vamp?) to let him in in the first place? I do agree that your use of him knocking and 'requesting permission' to enter was, again, great set-up. Bravo! Vamps are nasty but sophisticated (well, they can be slavering insane hunger-pangs, too, but not for BBEG's).

Slight digression here, but, it sounds like you play with your group at a table, with dice... here is a wonderful opportunity to add some flavor, suspense, and heroics to the scene without tipping the scales in either direction (changing the APL or CR of either party). There are 20 peasants, all who must make a will save vs. dominate. Chances are the DC for the dominate spell/su ability is beyond that of any 1st level commoner to make. BUT! If any one of them rolls a natural 20, they do, in fact, reject the domination effect (at least for that round: the vamp can try again with no penalty on subsequent rounds). Now, without getting all math-y, there is a chance that at least 1 of those 20 (1 in 20, get it?) will save the will save (ugh, sometimes i have to apologize for myself, apologies!). Roll this save for every peasant on the table, just like a player (not in secret). If even one of them saves, this sets up opportunities for:

heroic actions: "hey, i'm just a peasant, but I resisted a Vampire! Now let my brother GO!" this also helps tip the emotional odds and spur the party into acting like heroes (even though the party are supposed to be the role-models, not the npc peasants!)

future cohorts/followers for the party: "remember when I helped you save my friends and family...well, I want to help you more! I can carry stuff, and cook, and build camp..."

a back-up character for someone in the party who either doesn't fit-in or dies in this or any near-future encounter: "remember me, i'm the fearless peasant who wouldn't be told what to do by that nasty Vamp! What say I join you guys and help rid this land of evil, because I've been practising (class) etc. etc."

Regarding the gear of the characters and the experience of their players: does the NG priest of death have scrolls? perhaps really useful ones like "magic circle vs. evil"? Even though a caster level check would be required to cast the scroll, it would take stupendously bad luck for that roll to fail. barring that, did neither the pally nor the priest have prot. vs. evil memorized? This is the instant and reliable way to counter or immunize 1 character per casting against the dominate effect of vampires. In a land besieged with undead, all casters capable of using protection from evil should have it available in their spell load daily, if not for that specific use, then for the myriad of other excellent effects it grants, especially for a 1st level spell! in a well geared party, potions of the same should be widespread for such endeavours.

This calls into question the party's motivation for entering the land that is known to be besieged by undead. Were they after fame and glory (or perhaps glorious deaths)? were they hoping to become saviours of the land? Was the party foul-ly duped by the Magus or Wizard (also a dhampir?) into going there so he/they could learn the secrets of becoming a Lich? These motivations can (and should) be taken into account when designing future encounters for them (something i'm confident you are already employing). My point is, they knowingly went to an undead-fest, shacked up with some innocent survivors, and didn't (seemingly) use any of their knowledge or resources to prepare themselves for what they might face. This is before we consider the plethora of holy water and symbols available to them in the bloody church! Perhaps your players aren't as experienced as I once thought...

All the more reason to introduce them to Ravenloft (/evil dm chuckle).

Now, for further ideas regarding the outcome of last game, might i humbly suggest the following:

The Vampire Synthesist has a sister. Her name is Hatty. Hatty the Night Hag. He calls her up on his sending, and cajoles, bribes or trades for a favor from her: haunt this party with her nightmares. She (doesn't matter if it's really his sister or not, just another evil denizen he knows of, and is willing to bargain with) begins doing just that, but it turns out that your entire party is either Lawful or neutral...

Except that pesky Samurai!

There's his come-uppance: he is the only target of her nightmares, and thus is the conduit for some of the haunting other posters have put forth (all good ideas).

Also, in order for this not to be too centered and debilitating for the Samurai (for whom i have the most sympathy, given the circumstances OOC), you could reasonably think about shifting the wizard, magus and/or rogue's alignment(s) one-step to chaotic instead of evil. While they had the good of the whole in mind, their (random? crazy?) impulse and thought-process that lead them to mass immolation is what is really worth playing off of here (from a moralistic and story-telling perspective). This gives that Night Hag a way to visit each chaotic member in the party (spreading out the pain they are receiving and/or having to recuperate), and introduces another, though further-away villain for you to plague them with...

layers upon layers. Good DM'ing (in my books).

This also touches on the redemption of the pally (which is a great story arc). It was suggested that the atonement be the destruction of the Vamp (agreed) and the freeing of the lands from undead (way way too much, unless this Vamp is the cause of the entire land's troubles with undead). You've mentioned that the Vamp is the BBEG, so I would expect a confrontation with him to be a longer-term goal, but I think that freeing the land is too grandiose and difficult to achieve, and would take too long for the pally's redemption. You've also stated that you like the idea of stripping some of the pally's abilities, not just cleaning her out of all her toys. Well, how about this: She loses 1 ability immediately as punishment, and knows/is told by the agents of her god that until she sees to the demise of the Vamp, that her abilities will continue to erode over time. This gives you the option of taking away an ability at a time, as you see fit, if they dawdle or suffer more (moral) setbacks during the pursuit of the Vamp. It also gives you the chance of rewarding her with lost abilities as she gets closer to her goal: scratch another of the Vamp's generals (like the graveknight): get back your (spellcasting, or divine grace, or whatever). I think there's a lot of roleplaying opportunity within this structure without turning your pally into a feat-less fighter.

I don't know enough about Golarion and Pharasma to give much insight here, but surely the N Goddess of Death has a part to play in the town (church of Pharasma), the undead plaguing the lands, and the NG cleric/worshipper involved in this debacle. Perhaps (not knowing specifics) if she was the one to suggest 'passing-on' the townsfolk en-mass, then her alignment would be the one to go a shade... darker =]. she is the one that can most afford it (in the party), becoming a true N cleric who still channels positive energy... She might, however, be without casting/channelling abilities until she fashions a new holy symbol that recognizes her (slight) change in emphasis of faith (and she should be told that this is what would be required, either by her goddess or by agents of such).

As for the monk... hmmm. well, as this post is well long-enough already, i'll leave it for a bit to ponder. The difficulty lies in not turning the monk against character type (LN) and not de-lawfulizing (yikes, oh well, it's on the internet now, must be a word!) him out of the class, but still subjecting him to some unpleasantness for his complicity. Perhaps agents of a (rival/evil) monastery hear about the atrocity and seek to recruit him...

Oh, one last thing: Temptation! It is in temptation that you can most easily, eerily, and engagingly bring about the 'downfall' of your party. I'm not advocating killing them, or anything near it... By downfall, i simply mean continuing to pose moral problems to the party. Tempt them with power gained through making unwise choices: the magus and wizard can both be tempted by gaining spells (either from the Night Hag or other evil outsiders/casters), the rogue can be told of riches to pursue (not that those riches are cursed!), and so forth. You know your players and their motivations, so play off those and lead them (by the nose!) down the garden path...

just don't point out the assassin vines ;)

@ Orthos: Thanks!

Yours in DM scheming
Grym

edit: @Rynjin: also thanks!

Goblin Squad Member

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Well,
as one of the most intriguing threads on the board ("what are you going to play?"), this has sure branched-out and gone all over the place!
we have discussions on classes vs. archetypes
we have discussions on carrying capacity and mechanics
leading to thoughts on item degradation, consumables, spell components (must be in the game imho)
thoughts on 'epic' feel, mostly related to individual achievements/powers/spells
and finally we're back, sorta, on-track with:
"what are you going to play?"

Unfortunately, most of what I've seen (barring just a few examples) has been in the realm of game/character mechanics. ie. from examples like "a guy with a sword" to "lich deathknight antipaladin with the graveborne template because I can't play a deathmage".

As a long-time DM, player, and grudging convert to the online world of mmorpgs (another discussion, for another thread), when I hear "what do you want to play?" I immediately think of my role in society/the world at large. When given the opportunity to start a level 1 character, I have a humble, and potentially ambitious beginning to a personality. I have a set of goals, ideals, or challenges that I confront myself with.

I have more respect for the "guy with a sword" answer than the templated arch-gibbledy-gok replies. The GWAS has a humble beginning. He has some goals in mind. He will seek out some things that interest him, and pursue them until complete or uninteresting. This, already, is a more 'alive' character than the stat-block-from-epic-hell.

I think, having read through much of the site, the blogs, and the TT Pathfinder material (let alone playing in the best, simplest and most-directly-engaging, Mark-I Sandbox: yes, the lowly tabletop experience), that given the systems that PFO will incorporate (mass combat, trade/economics, society/structure building, etc.), and noting the mandate that group-interaction in their sandbox will be the dominant theme and paradigm, that the designers, developers, and (hopefully) players (who will presumably stay-on long-term with the game) would be more interested in this thread if some real thought were put into our posts.

To wit: "What do you want to play?"

Newly arrived in the River Kindoms, I've noted that there's a great bloody river and some folks squabbling over a bunch of land around it. I'm planning on leading an expeditionary force to chart new settlement areas, with the goal of subduing local wild life and charging the homesteading/pioneering/settlement building (aka city-folk) for my services. I'm not a 1-man-army, so I will gather a group of like-minded folks to help me with this (near and long-term) goal.

Now, obviously, the above could suit a variety of archetypes. In fact, nearly any of the core 11 could accomplish such goals. And this is where the beauty of the sandbox really comes forth: it doesn't (much) matter whether I'd play a ranger, druid, thief, cleric, fighter, barbarian, etc. etc. for the above situation. This game is all about choice: the intricacies of your 'stat block' are your (the player's) choice, but the goals, and pursuit of them are your character's... and who knows, the pursuit of these (basic) goals could lead you into conflict or cahoots with a variety of others (players and npcs alike). This is the real power of the sandbox. Your choices will spin-off countless others, and will generate play for others, just as their choices will generate play for you.

So: tell me this. How much variety and choice and play will you bring to the table (sandbox, apologies), if you're just a max-level-achieving/number-crunching/templated arch whosi-whatsi?

And how much more variety and choice and game play will you bring and generate as a GWAS (or whatever societal role you choose to espouse from here on out)?

Personally, I'm intent on playing a thieving scumbag dirtrat who would shank his own mother (in law) to score a few more glubs of grog on a school-night. I'm gonna play a bandit and recruit a bandit army, and prey on all those cardboard-cutout soloists out wandering around looking for exotic spell components and resources and whatnot. because no matter what else happens, I'll be as epic as they are, in the same time-frame, and (hopefully) we'll both have a great time playing what we want.

Grym