I'd say the modules, even with this latest increase in page count, are still not even close to the adventure paths in terms of content. 64 pages vs. 500+ pages.
While I certainly agree that bigger modules prove more difficult to insert into existing campaigns, one of THE biggest complaints I saw for many modules prior to this increase in page count was that some of them were too short to do the subject matter justice.
So now we have 3 tiers when it comes to Pathfinder modules: Pathfinder Society scenarios, Pathfinder Modules, and the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. So there's something for everyone here, I think.
I would like this also but right now the site is too slow to handle it. The site would be crashing 20 times a day. Maybe when/if they ever make some changes.
This is a concern for me as well, but the concept of multidownloads is something I would very much like to see. I often buy my PDFs in batches and I subscribe to multiple product lines. So yeah, good idea IF the hardware supports it.
Rape, don't forget rape. Because evil does that on a regular basis too.
If I was to include every single act committed by evil, it'd be a very long list. I'm not personally particularly fond of discussing rape in public forums for several reasons and so I didn't include that in the list. But yes, rape is indeed an example of extreme evil.
So I just browsed through the Mind of the Man PDF. First impression is "MAD GENIUS!" This wee document really adds to this whole experience and I very much appreciate the glimpse behind the scenes.
Thanks to Lou, Nick, everyone involved at Frog God Games, and freelancers associated with Razor Coast for what's been an absolute belter of an experience.
We all know it's been tremendous work getting this far but the rewards are near. Soon enough Razor Coast game reports will come in from all over the globe and the character death toll will rise to unimaginable heights, praise Pele!
Just to add to the inflation point, the production value is, in my opinion, much higher in Paizo's products than anything TSR produced back in the day. Full-color books, including expensive artwork and more intricate layout than back in the day. Add to that inflation (because inflation IS a factor and 30'ish years is a long time in that regard), an industry that evolves alongside its supporting industries (printing, distribution, etc.), and the fact that Paizo's running a more sound business than TSR did (as Gorbacz mentioned, boxed sets was one of the factors that destroyed TSR), and $120 doesn't sound that bad to me.
It's simple. We live in a different world than we did 30'ish years ago. Everything costs more. Paizo only recently raised the price of some of their product lines, which is the first time that's happened since Rise of the Runelords #1: Burnt Offerings. That tells me that Paizo's doing everything they can to keep the prices as low as possible without losing money on their products.
$120 is a lot of money, of course, but I don't think it's fair to make a 1:1 comparison between current RPG products and products published 15-30 years ago. Considering the amount of campaign material that's in the 6 books, it's $120 well spent, in my opinion.
Desna's Avatar wrote:
Paizo is devoting it's limited resources to developing more adventures...
I realize your beef is with the many game mechanics produced by Paizo but I can't help but wonder about your mention of adventures. Is it your opinion that the adventures produced by Paizo don't add much lore to the game? It's my experience that the adventure paths and the modules are among the best sources for in-world lore on Golarion* and I'm surprised to see adventures lumped in with the game mechanics in this context.
Desna's Avatar wrote:
Look at the content of the setting books they've put out. It's filled with...again...feats, traits, character paths, spells, etc.
As for the setting books being filled with game mechanics, I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. You have a point when it comes the Player Companion line but most books in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line are fluff-heavy. Exceptions exist, of course, such as Paths of Prestige, but there's plenty of fluff to find in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting books. That's just my own assessment on the topic, of course, and your mileage may vary. :)
*) This is not a weakness of the setting books but rather a strength of the adventures, in my opinion. As I mentioned above, I feel that the setting books, especially the books in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line, offer plenty of fluff material. The modules and adventure paths just allow for more detail on the relevant fluff, such as a region or a village.
Aaron, if you're on Facebook, you should search for Pathfinder Art. They share a lot of cool Pathfinder artwork on that page, including the cover art for Pirate's Honor.
What are the chances, then, of a Campaign Setting book on Mendev? I've always felt that the Worldwound and the crusader nation of Mendev were inseperably connected and to me it would be natural for books to be released for both nations once an adventure path about the Worldwound happens, especially since many characters in a Worldwound adventure path would likely be crusaders or involved in the Mendevian Crusades somehow.
I had hope that the Mythic rules would be like a spice I could sprinkle in once in a while. I was not looking for Mythic to become a "norm" for the characters or the game. But that was my take on Mythic. I realize this.
Mythic IS like a spice you can sprinkle in once in a while, whenever it fits the game you're running. James has said repeatedly that Mythic play won't be standard for the game going forward. We won't see every single adventure path after Wrath of the Righteous carry the Mythic label. It's a major 2013 release for the Pathfinder RPG, sure, and there'll be a Mythic adventure path, but the Pathfinder RPG will still be the same. Mythic's just that spice you can add to your game when the story calls for it.
Number of books on demons = 3 (people can pretend all they want that there is a meaningful difference between devils, demons and daemons... I don't see it) with another coming out.
Number of books on demons = 1. The fact that you don't see a difference between the three major types of fiends doesn't mean it isn't there.
And they are all over the APs like a demonic rash, even more if you're into the Dungeon-days.
Please note that I said Pathfinder adventure paths. While it's certainly true that demons featured rather heavily in Savage Tide and were probably present in the two adventure paths released prior to Savage Tide, so were undead, monstrous humanoids, fey, and all sorts of other monsters.
And Wrath of the Righteous is a demon-tastic AP.
I replied to Dragon78 because of his apparent dislike of anything demonic and annoyance at a perceived flood of demons in the Pathfinder material so far, culminating with the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path. As such, my list of books was there to illustrate that the topic of demons wasn't really that heavily represented in the setting so far. It's there, of course, but fiends are popular foes among gamers.
And the Demon Hunter's Handbook is also in the works...
Again, my list featured the books that had already made it into the hands of us gamers, trying to illustrate the point that, so far, Dragon78's perception of some flood of demon-influenced products wasn't based on facts.
Oh, and don't forget the demons in Great Beyond as well.
The Abyss gets 2 pages of text and a map in a 64-page book and that includes a brief and VERY rough description of the types of denizens dwelling there as well as a VERY brief description of some of the notable sites in the Abyss. Wow, the demon presence in that book is insane!
And they're common monsters in AP bestiaries as well: a quick check of pfsrd reveal over 100 demons/devils/daemons/they're-all-the-same-really-anyway.
So far we've had 3 demons represented in the adventure path bestiaries. The rest are scattered throughout the core Bestiaries and various Campaign Setting books and Modules.
And again, daemons, demons, and devils are not the same. They're all evil and they're all outsiders, sure, but that's where the comparison ends. You may pretend they're all the same, of course, and the Badwrongfun Police Department won't come knocking on your door if you treat them as such in your own games. That's entirely up to you.
One thing that bothers me about this whole thing is, in all of Pathfinder's history, we've had (once Wrath of the Righteous reaches its conclusion) 1 adventure path and 3 books on demons, and yet some people seem to be under the impression that they're everywhere. Considering the popularity of demons, indeed fiends in general, among gamers, how is that a problem?
Of the 3 books on demons (counting the two being released this year), 2 of them function as support material for an adventure path, just like Varisia, Birthplace of Legends and Magnimar, City of Monuments functioned as support material for Shattered Star or People of the North and Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter functioned as support material for Reign of Winter or Pirates of the Inner Sea and Isles of the Shackles functioned as support material for Skull & Shackles. This is common practice for the adventure paths. Why is that so horrible now that it's about demons?
I get that demons don't appeal to everyone, just like the elements featured in Alkenstar don't appeal to everyone. That's cool. I'm just a bit weary of hearing some people groaning "demons? again?" when their presence in the Pathfinder era, up until the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path and its support material, has been rather limited considering their popularity.
---END RANT (WITH APOLOGIES FOR THE TEMPORARY DERAIL)
As for Wardens of the Reborn Forge, I'm hoping that it'll include some more detail on how guns haven't spread beyond that area. That's something that's bugged me for a while now, as it apparently has BPorter. The in-world explanation seems a bit thin to me. To be honest, though, I don't expect it to. After all, a module about Alkenstar will probably be all guns blazing with no holding back on the gunslingers and steampunk elements.
When I read the product description, it felt very epic in scope with a lot of roleplaying and some interesting encounters (earhtquakes and riots among them) but with the "dungeon" label there, I have to wonder how much of that will be actual challenges for the heroes and how much of it is "merely" there to set the mood.
For instance, will we actually get earthquake encounters and will the heroes actually get to do some major diplomacy to kill the riots? I'm eager to find out, even if the setting itself isn't high on my Like radar at all.
This is such more interesting then a book about demons, a book about fighting demons, or AP about demons...again.
Yeah because we've had 0 Pathfinder adventure paths focusing on demons, 0 Pathfinder books on fighting demons, and 1 Pathfinder book detailing the demon lords, their realms, and their mortal worshipers with a wee bit of info on the classic demons and a few new ones. I totally get your annoyance.
I personally have near zero interest in this module but it's still very cool that those who do like the region of Alkenstar get a chance to play a game set in that region, and I'll definitely get this module if for no other reason that the stuff I might like.
Wow, I'm loving the vibe of desperation with the heroes holding off a demonic incursion until the cavalry arrives. The adventure path sure starts with a KABOOM! And yes Kajehase, awesome title for the adventure path.
T-Rex Jacobs, I'm getting the feeling that The Worldwound Incursion will be a good excuse for me to dust off my copy of Heroes of Battle. Would that book be useful for this first installment of Wrath of the Righteous?
Oh, and congrats to Amber Scott. Very cool news.
It's "nissar," før Søren! Don't let that sneaky west Scandinavian fool you. ;)
Sneaky West Scandinavian fool? Bah! Let me just find my axe and shield and we'll settle what 11 wars between our nations haven't been able to! ;)
I was hoping it would come out at the same time as Champions.
Heh, I was kind of hoping they'd announce that it's coming out, well, now.
Chronicle of the Righteous is THE highlight of 2013 for me as far as Pathfinder Campaign Setting books are concerned. The only thing that might measure higher on my excitometer would be a Mendev book.
Steve Geddes wrote:
Reviews are subjective things. I don't take every reviewer to be saying "does this book deliver what it promises?" but rather "is this a good example of this type of book?"
They certainly are. But, in my opinion, that subjectivity should be based on what's actually in the book, not what's not in the book (as long as it's made clear what's actually in the book, as is the case here). Again, in my opinion. Just as reviews are subjective, so too are our preferences when it comes to reviews. :)
I think a new Pathfinder Society book makes perfect sense, to be honest. Pathfinder RPG continues to evolve, as does the campaign setting, so it's only natural for the organized play scheme to evolve as well. In addition, copies of previous Pathfinder Society books may become increasingly difficult to find in stores, and they were part of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line (GM-focused). Finally, the Player Companion line seems like the perfect product line for a book that should speak to the many thousands of players playing at the tables, and Paizo seems to have hit a decent formular with the relaunch of the Player Companion line.
All this mixed together makes for an excellent decision by Paizo to produce another Pathfinder Society book. At least as I see it.
It boggles the mind to consider the journey that has been Razor Coast. A journey of troubled waters that has now ended with our arrival in the calm waters of Port Shaw. As someone who preordered the original offering and who followed the progress both on the Sinister Adventures forums and here on paizo.com, I'm absolutely thrilled to see this realized finally.
I can only imagine the burden that has been removed from Nick Logue's shoulders now and that thought is heartening. Nick, I hope the success of this Kickstarter sees your creative flame reignited and that we'll see your name on the covers of many adventures in the future. You're a good man and an amazing game design talent.
I raise my glass to toast to the success of this Kickstarter. To everyone from Frog God Games. To Lou. To Knick. And to all of my fellow gamers who helped make this finally happen. I cannot wait until Razor Coast stands on my 3PP shelf of gaming goodness and I can finally release the horrors of Dajobas upon my poor poor players.
Really? Pushed back to August? This is getting to be as bad as Margaret Weis Productions and their Dragonlance products. Some of those things took a year or so to come out as it kept getting pushed back.
That's not actually the best comparison to make if your intent is to make it seem like a bad thing. Yes, Margaret Weis Productions was notorious for delays but as someone who had the honor of being part of the Whitestone Council (during the d20 days a group of gents proofreading the Dragonlance books released by Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions), I can attest to the desire by the design team to make the books as good as they could be, even if it meant delays.
In the case of Visions of WAR, it was said early in the process that this is a low priority product. As I understand it, being a low priority product for Paizo means that if other fires need to be put out (such as delays to more important product lines such as the adventure paths, etc.), Visions of WAR is put on the back burner until those fires have been put out.
Gary Teter wrote:
The "will you please get to the point" part of this post: Rather than add another giant layer of special cases and tweaks to our existing code, or creating an entire parallel set of code that does nearly the same thing, we are instead taking this opportunity to make both the VTT code and the main website code cleaner, more stable and more maintainable. This is taking longer than a just-get-it-out-the-damn-door approach but I think it's the right thing to do.
You, sir, and your team rock.
What would the purpose of a pdf be?
Nowadays some people simply prefer digital formats to deadtree versions.
Also, for gaming purposes a PDF would allow GMs to use the artwork in their games for various purposes.
Normally I'd avoid this kind of module like the plague but I'm actually pretty excited about this one. Why? Because there's a Paizo logo on the cover. Paizo's track record with adventure design is second to none and I have no doubt that this kind of wackiness is in good hands.
Putting out a product or two that caters to players who like to include vampires or lycanthropes in their games is hardly the same as turning Golarion into World of Darkness.
I'd prefer to get the book about hunting lycanthropes personally as it seems like it would see more use at the table (perhaps as part of a serious of Player Companion books about hunting various types of monsters.
Dragon Hunter's Handbook and Demon Hunter's Handbook are coming out in 2013 and the more I think about it, the more I would have prefered to have vampire hunting be a separate book in a Hunter's Handbook series of Player Companion books. The same with lycanthropes and other popular types of monsters.
I think there are several issues with regard to expectations for this book. When I read the product description, I do get the feeling that this book caters more to players who want to play actual vampires than it does players who want to play dhampirs. One example of this is that 3 out of 5 bullet points are about vampires, 1 is about dhampirs, and 1 is about vampire hunters.
Now, if that was the only parameter, then I'd say that those expressing their disappointment should've paid more attention to what the product description tries to sell.
However, it's title does blur things a lot. So far, the "Blood of" line of books has detailed two races born out of a union between mortal and immortal. Naming this book "Blood of the Night" really does make it seem obvious that, just as Blood of Fiends didn't deal with actual fiends and Blood of Angels didn't deal with actual celestials, this book's focus would be the dhampir (which is, after all, a playable race a la the tiefling and the aasimar) and not the vampire.
Does Blood of the Night belong in the Campaign Setting line? I'm not so sure it does, honestly. While there's a certain level of disappointment among those who've read the book with the subject matter focusing on the vampire and not the dhampir, I get the impression that vampires are popular monsters to play for many players. Why not just play Vampire: Dark Ages then? Because a lot of players out there really like to play Pathfinder RPG and for those players who fit into both groups, this book becomes a valuable resource.
To be honest, my hope is that they'll stick to the core dragons in this first installment, then dedicating any potential followup to more exotic species of dragons, such as imperial and primal dragons. Lets focus on the iconic dragons first. This is of course a personal preference.
Mead Gregorisson wrote:
Actually seems more like an NPC Codex for dragons.
That's my impression as well. Unlike Dragons Revisited, which discussed the various kinds of dragons, this'll contain 15 named dragons, providing GMs with enough information to build adventures around these 15 dragons. Which is awesome.
Also, where's the mockup art from?
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
See, to me, that sort of unusual or unique character is exactly the sort of thing the GM should be creating and customizing for the campaign. The purpose of this book is to provide tons of standard characters so the GM doesn't have to waste valuable time making a generic 5th-level fighter, 7th-level wizard, and so on and can focus on the interesting monsters, NPCs, and plots.
And a heartfelt thank you for that!
First, none of the advanced classes are here, which I can understand, you want to be able to just use the book without any of the newer classes in here, but it'd still be awesome if there's a future advanced NPC download or something like that. I'd love to see class builds for alchemists and summoners.
This would indeed be awesome for an NPC Codex II. :D
I hereby petition Paizo to create Inner Sea Bestiary II. Inner Sea Bestiary is all kinds of awesome with a wide range of freaking cool critters acoompanied by incredible artwork. Very well done Paizo!
Admittedly I'm not all that familiar with Adventureaweek's offerings but two things I would really like to see are investigation adventures (murder mysteries and such) and adventures in which war is a major backdrop and where the heroes' actions help shape the outcome of the battle/war.
Seriously, the announcements and releases over the past couple of months have led to an incredible overflow of Feel Good. :D
I have to agree. While it's always been good to be a Paizo fanboy, it's really been ramped up to 100 (on a scale of 1-10) since PaizoCon with all the recent releases and the slew of awesome upcoming products. Especially 2013 is going to be a kick-ass year.
So now my hope for the Pathfinder Tales line is that we'll see a novel set in wintry Ustalav, written by F. Wesley Schneider, in the not too distant future. If a certain monster monster-hunter was to be the main protagonist, that wouldn't be a bad thing.