You can advance past 20th level if you so desire. The Player's Guide provides some basic ideas, but nothing robust enough to be considered full epic. It just seems that Paizo and many players don't want to focus on epic levels. Doesn't mean you can't advance past 20th if you and your group have a burning desire. Will require some nimble work fixing some of the "broken math" (saving throw progression at high levels, etc.) but it can be accomplished.
I'd like to humbly suggest a few Champion path abilities. Will keep descriptions simple.
1. Two Weapon Fighting Master: ignore -2 penalties for TWF and allow use of medium weight weapon in off-hand.
2. Ability that allows character to make critical hits against creatures immune to such ... undead, plants, constructs, etc.
Both seem balanced in comparison to many high tier abilities (6th tier & up).
Curious what fellow fans & Bulmahn/Reynolds/Jacobs/etc. think ...
I've noticed that the big bad guys in high level adventure paths have some powerful spells with VERY high DCs ... 28-30+. 14-16th level PCs have general bonus to saving throws, stat bonuses (if they're high enough), item of resistance and then a buff spell. Even with all of that odds are still stacked against them. Heavily. Not all parties have Bards to buff them ... Besides the occasional divine buff spell or owl's wisdom type deal from an arcane source, odds still seem grim. Curious to hear what everyone does to give their characters saucy odds. Especially with final bosses whipping out greater dispel magics like tic tacs.
I understand one wouldn't want DCs too easy, but if characters HAVE to roll 15-18 every time, it's over faster than Usain Bolt.
I remember reading Runelord Karzoug's stat block from the first adventure path ... if memory serves me correctly, his preparations included flying to a height of FORTY feet while waiting for the PCs. This is just an example to set up my points ...
So let's take a 20th level character with 10 mythic tiers [Remember - the champion Path is NOT intended solely for monks, thus aerial assault MUST be viable for non-monks]. Max ranks in acrobatics = 20 + 3 [class skill] + 10 [pretty damn high] ability modifier = 33. Throw in some buffing spells and we'll pump that up to 40. Circumstance bonus = 100. Total bonus = 140.
Now according to the Acrobatics skill description, a character can high jump 4 feet at a DC of 16 and an additional foot per +4 on the DC. So to reach the above character at 40 feet, the DC = 16 + 36x4 = 16 + 144 = 160. So the above character [non-monk] with maxed out ranks, a stat of 30, and buff spells can only reach 40 feet on a natural roll of 20.
And again ... this is a 20th level/10th mythic tier character. It's EASY AS PIE for flying characters to ascend to 36+ feet. So essentially, what becomes the point of the ability below? A character will rarely be able to "hit" an opponent with aerial assault ... at any level.
And the solution should NOT involve a feat. Very FEW, if any, abilities should ever REQUIRE a feat to prove successful.
Thanks for any feedback!
Aerial Assault (Su): When making a charge attack
This seems like a fairly saucy combo ... essentially the Champion character can use fleet warrior to move up to their speed, make a full attack ... THEN use a swift action & mythic power with fleet charge to move up to speed AGAIN with an extra attack. Wow. That's not too shabby.
Or am I misunderstanding something? if not, that's like spring attack on steroids. Nice.
Gotcha ... I understand the math now. However, her CR is too low in my humble opinion. The various abilities and stat buffs in her "immortality" block are on par with 3rd edition "Chosen" templates (especially Chosen of Mystra). Said templates boosted CR by 4. She seems to be more in line with CR 27-29 ... 20 levels + 3 mythic tiers + at least 4 from the powerful templates. Getting to use CHA instead of CON for HP is a massive deal for her ...
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Sean - I've seen you reference this "broken math" several times. To what exactly are you referring? Also ... there will be some people who will want to push the level envelope a little. Just a little.
Folks - if you don't want to push characters past level 20/10 mythic tiers ... DON'T. If you want to add 5-7 levels, DO IT ... Pathfinder gives some basic ideas for that in the Core Rulebook.
The Mythic rules look great and I DOUBT adding 5-6 levels and creating a 26th level/10th tier character will cause that much hand wringing and ruination.
At the end of the day, respect the mechanics and gameplay guys like Jason & Sean are creating ... but remember that a few house rules are OK! Be confident in managing or respecting the spirit of the rules without becoming their prisoner.
Finished reading the entire document within a few hours of release ... VERY well done guys. This looks to be one of the tuly special RPG books of the last few decades. Fabulous potential.
I'd still like to see characters advance beyond 20th level WITH mythic tires as well, but don't want to quibble or sound ungrateful.
From my initial pass through the 50+ pages, the one glaring item that jumped out at me was AMAZING INTITIATIVE. Super cool ability but now characters will essentially go first almost every time (not that I'm complaining mind you!) ... the still cool, but alarming feature of amazing intiative is the ability to spend a mythic point to go AGAIN in a given round. If you're in the middle of the tiers (say 4-5) and your key ability modifier grants +5, one can take TWO turns of actions for an entire key battle!! Is there any concern about this slowing down battles or die roll pacing? And if a "Final Boss" has this ability and the players make 1-2 bad rols for initiative, they're toast, no?
Or am I missing something? Regardless, this is the coolest playtest I've seen and hope you guys feel great about yourselves heading into the holidays. Well deserved slaps on the back. I've already marked my calendar for August 2013!
I think you must be right because I double checked some other characters from the Rivals Guide [Derrak & Shavaran] & from Jade Regent Adventure Path & ... all their stats check out.
Evidently, it was a typo with Casault. Editors forgot to include his +4 item ... they didn't forget to do so with other stat blocks. Thanks guys!
I've noticed that hit point totals for a great many characters in the Rivals Guide & various Adventure Paths seem "off" ...
For example, here is the HP stat block for Captain Ozrin Casault from the Rivals Guide.
hp 211 (18d10+108) ... he possesses the toughness feat and a 16 CON.
Shouldn't that be 18d10 + 54 [CON bonuses] + 18 [toughness feat] = 18d10 + 72 ?? Where do the other 36 hit points come from? I've noticed this with characters ALL OVER the Rivals Guide and with NPCs like Luvick Siervage [from the Carrion Crown Adventure Path].
What am I missing? Any insight would be appreciated.
Here is the definition of chaotic neutral - "A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). a chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it."
Odd to me that the plane, Maelstrom, which is connected to that alignment seems like a plane with a locale and populace that would NOT actually be favorable to chaotic neutral characters. For example, I can imagine a paladin connecting normally & well with angels, etc. I just don't see much kinship between the chaotic neutral barbarian or pirate and proteans or chaos beasts.
Probably just me ... but the connection between characters of other alignments & the planes represented by those alignments feels more in sync.
Very cool product and one I was looking forward to purchasing. The two prestige classes that intrigued me most were the Aldori Swordlord and the Arclord of Nex ...
Yet each earns, from my present perspective, weak capstone abilities.
First, the Aldori Swordlord's 10th level ability "Confounding Duelist". It involves a successful critical or combat maneuver, then a successful intimidate check, then the opponent's morale/competence/insight bonuses are suppressed.
Good lord that feels a little clunky and none too smooth. So a character's capstone reward at 15th+ overall level is an ability that maybe works every other rainy Tuesday during a lunar equinox?? And when it DOES work, it suppresses bonuses that the opponent may or may not have? Hey, I'm probably missing something, but how is it fair that a PRC capstone ability doesn't just "work"? One has to jump through 2-3 hoops FOR it to work?
Second, the Arclord of Nex ... By the time a character reaches 10th level in the PRC they are roughly 15th-16th level overall. The capstone Greater Third Eye allows the use of greater arcane sight (7th level spell) or true seeing (6th level spell) ... but ONLY until the beginning of your next turn! Each spell normally has a duration of 1 minute per level ... AND the character could just CHOOSE either or both of those spells as part of his daily usage instead of wasting hand of the apprentice uses for an ability that again ... lasts ONLY a single turn! How does this make sense?? What am I missing??
Strong product with great flavor, but I'm completely underwhelmed with what a high level character in these classes earns after so much hard work. Any insight is appreciated.
A belated thanks guys ... I thought there needs to be an addition to a character's CR ON TOP of any character levels.
For example, a Solar is CR 23 but more powerful if used as a character than a regular 23rd level person. Or a Planetar at CR 16, if used as a character, is stronger than an average 16th level character.
So if I want to make a "30th" level Solar character ... I thought I couldn't just add 7 character levels. Thought I had to add a second variable based on their power. So if that variable was 5, then I'd only be able to add 2 character levels to said Solar.
I've looked at the old monster manuals and fiend folio (3rd edition), and that didn't clear things up.
Thanks for any further clarification.
I am running an epic level game and updating/converting a 30th level adventure from
Solars are CR 23, but how many class levels can I add to make one roughly 30-31st level?! I don't think it's as simple as adding 7-8 to the CR, hence my post with the above question.
Thanks for any help.
Folks - I really appreciate the constructive and thoughtful responses!
I respectfully disagree with the assertion that loving TOB means one should automatically enjoy 4th edition.
I also tend to figure that TOB could work quite well with Pathfinder. While the Pathfinder fighter class is a great upgrade over 3rd edition, if one was to include martial adept classes I'd suggest the fighter be given 4-5 new power ups or abilities.
I loved Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords ... one of my all time favorite D&D related books (from 1st edition to the present).
I'm bummed that said material isn't open content and thus can never be a part of Pathfinder. I love Pathfinder and can't stand 4th edition...oh well.
I guess it becomes of a case of house ruling the material into a Pathfinder game and making an organic transition without the "blessing of Paizo/official publishers"...
Has anyone out there found success and luck in translating Tome of Battle to Pathfinder?
Thanks kindly for any constructive replies.
@ bugleyman - It's just you.
I would never expect people to play in a uniform manner. My point is that if you're at the point of hand wringing and stress - I humbly suggest one should consider an alternative.
We all have enough hand wringing and stress in real life...
Thanks to all who took the time to post thoughtful replies.
CLPARIS just hit the nail on the head - "Besides if you are having fun does it really matter where you start."
I wholeheartedly agree with DRAGONSAGE47's "Good stats seem to make happier players honestly, playing that farmer can be fun but somehow Alanon, Conan, Legolas, Aragorn, Fiddler, and One-Eye seem to be more popular as heroic archetypes than Ted the farmer. Now I'm not disparaging Ted nor am I saying Ted can't be one heck of a hero, but they don't make that many epic stories about Ted the farmer and his mighty Hoe of Weeding."
Again - no offense to bigkilla but I don't want a character vastly below my real life capabilities. I love D&D/Pathfinder for the ability to do things one can't do in Evanston, Illinois or Princeton, NJ. Having high stats does not preclude one from roleplaying or from the "heroic struggle & journey" or "hard won victory".
@ bigkilla - I respect how you enjoy your games. I enjoy mine differently. I'll respectfully agree to disagree. The stat build we used is not "super hero in a cape". And even with our builds, we still had to "make" our characters success all the way to epic levels...
@TriOmegaZero - you're absolutely right ... it's very important to maintain a broad, open-minded perspective and understand that there's so many ways to enjoy one's RPG experience.
Cheers everybody - thanks for the thoughtful replies!
...trying to figure out builds that can work at first level. I just saw a thread with ONE THOUSAND posts regarding the merits of monks and how one can successfully build them.
I always laugh at players who wring their hands with character builds, like they're trying to figure out a shell game or some equation.
FOLKS - there are no RPG police that will come into your homes, storm into your games and DEMAND you make first level characters with "stat caps"!! This isn't the NFL or NBA with a salary cap. It's YOUR game and my friends & I always wanted to play supremely gifted characters that could do amazing things. Real life is challenging enough.
Forgive me, but I'm not going to start a character with a 15, a few 12s, an 8, a few 10s...those are the stats of my buddy down the hall in college. I want to play gifted badasses - we always had a rule: 2 18s, 17, 16 , 15, 14. I don't want to play with mediocre scrub stats. Never screwed up game balance...and we STILL role played and enjoyed the "non stat" parts of the game.
Just blows me away that so many millions of players box themselves into low starting stats. I want to play with characters well above my own real word capabilities...not below them.
Thanks Calagnar...but we aren't restricted to base classes or just Pathfinder. We're using Tome of Battle and selected PrCs from 3.5 edition...
Was planning on character wielding a katana/longsword with two hands (1 1/2 Str bonus)...am completely aware of the power of two-handed styles...but the mechanics for that can become cumbersome.
I understand Pathfinder has no official Epic rules, but my campaign is epic and we've made the conversion. The group loves Pathfinder, but we're also using Tome of Battle (with errata) and most 3.5 prestige classes are open...
How would you guys build a 35th-40th level badass swordsman? Using single blade and NOT two weapon fighting...
Thanks for any constructive and thoughtful replies.
The feat states the DC is 10 + the character's BAB.
Does that mean 10 + the "base" BAB only? Or does it include strength, weapon foci, and magic item bonuses?
So for a 20th level fighter, is the DC 10 + JUST 20 (base BAB)?
Or 10 + 20 (base BAB) + strength bonus + magic item bonus + weapon foci?
Thanks in advance.
I'm planning on using Kyuss for a homebrewed campaign...
His stat block states he is a cleric 8/sorcerer 8/true necromancer 14...
So how can Kyuss have caster level 20 for both cleric and sorcerer spells?
I thought with true necromancer you had to choose which spellcasting class received a bump up in caster level?
How the heck does he "officially" go from 8 to 20 with both spellcasting classes? On what stat block stuff am I whiffing?