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I'm looking into making a Lust Enchantment Wizard, but I'm not sure how it meshes with the core schools.
Do I still pick one of the enchantment schools anyway? How many spells do I actually have per day: two extra enchantment spells or three?
My understanding of it was that the various Thassilonian schools were schools like any other. Meaning, you can't take one of them and another school. Thus, you are trading your school powers and your access to opposition schools for an extra spell slot of every level.
I could see an argument for it being more like an archetype, though. Upgrading the regular school with an extra slot but requiring you totally give up the opposition schools.
I don't think there is enough information to be definitive either way. I'd probably lean against giving three spells, though. I just can't imagine such a massive increase in spells was what they intended.
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It's just that it doesn't say anywhere that it replaces the bonus spells from the regular schools. It says you get two extra spells that have to be prepared as the same spell. It doesn't say anything about the other school abilities, and it doesn't say anything about not getting the bonus spell from specializing.
I think the cost is very high, so high that one extra spell per day might not be enough to make up for it.
I think not even three extra spells would make up for the loss of two complete schools of magic.I mean really no transmutation or necromancy at all?You might be able to live without necromancy but loosing transmutation is a big blow.I think the thassilonian specialist is the worst wizard archetype ever.But on topic, I think you get the bonus spell slots on top of the regular school bonons slot.So you could prepare two extra enchanment spells per level and cast one of these spells twice.
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I think based on the fact that they don't grant any of the school powers that normal schools (including the elemental ones) do, I suspect the intent is that it does stack on top of a normal school. So you'd be giving up your choice of opposition schools for a fixed list of prohibited schools, but you gain two more spell slots per level, on top of the one for specializing in the first place.
It's the only way it makes sense.
But it does not say that you don´t get your normal school powers,how I read it you pick your school as usual and get all the benefits of your school.I would also allow subschools, this archetype needs no further gimping.
It might be an interesting experience to play a caster with restrictions like that.That said I think from a purely mechanical standpoint Lust(enchantment) is probably the worst choice you can make for a Thassilonian Specialist, you lose two of the strongest most versatile schools for a little bonus in the arguably weakest and least versatile school. The only Specialist that seems halfway worth the tradeoff for me is Greed(transmutation), strong specialization school, and you "only" loose Enchantment and Illusion, all the other schools lose too much in my oppinion.
It is worth noting that Thassilonian schools' prohibited schools are very similar to the way schools worked in 3.5. The only difference is that you got to pick them (but you couldn't pick Divination, and you'll notice no Thassilonian school blocks it). I definitely agree that having the prohibited schools picked makes it a tougher pill to swallow, though.
Tier 1:
Conjuration
Evocation
Transmutation
Tier 2:
Abjuration
Enchantment
Illusion
Tier 3:
Divination
Necromancy
Hmm, i am currently playing a thassilonian conjurer and i've been playing it as the thassilonian specialisation doubling up the extra spell you get for specialisation rather than adding an additional 2 spells on top of the extra one get get as part of specialisation.
I don't see how giving wizards 3 extra conjuration spells per level for dumping evocation and illusion works out but that would be win.
At level 1 with 20 int: 6 first level spells?
i wouldn't think it were particularly overpowering if it wasn't for the fact that sorcerers get 6 + stat mod spells per day at the maximum castings and with this sin magic interpretation wizards get 4 + 2 sin + specialisation + stat mod spells per day at the maximum castings.
having 1 extra spell per day per spell level over sorcerer may not seem like a big deal but when you consider that wizards get new spells a level earlier dropping two schools of magic seems like a good deal depending on the schools you drop, transmutation seems like a no brainer and conjuration is just as good.
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Good point. Right now I'm playing a Thassilonian Greed Wizard (transmutation), but I guess I didn't read carefully enough. I had just removed Enchantment and Illusion from the list in exchange for that one extra spell, but kept the other bonuses from being a Transmutation specialist.
In this case, considering I'm playing this character in PFS, I would appreciate an official ruling.
Thassilonian Specialist from Inner Sea Magic.
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Okay, I've changed my mind and am now playing an envious dwarf. Abjurers don't get enough street cred, and non-blasty wizards don't get nearly enough playtime where I do PFS.
Tofnir
Male Dwarf wizard (Abjurer) 1
LN Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7 (+9 when Juble is within 5 feet)
DEFENCE
AC 13, touch 12, flat-footed 11 (armour +1, Dex +2)
Hp 10 (1d6+4)
Fort +3 (+5 vs poison), Ref +2, Will +4; +4 vs spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, stability
OFFENCE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee heavy pick -1 (1d6-1/x4)
Ranged sling +2 (1d4-1)
Special Attacks protective ward 6/day (3 rounds, +1); Resist [specific energy type] 5
Spells Per Day (CL 1st, touch -1, ranged touch +2, concentration +4):
1st - 5/day (three abjuration, two must be the same spell)
0 - 3/day
Banned Schools evocation, necromancy
STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 11 (15 vs. bull rush or trip)
Feats Alertness (when Juble is within 5 feet), Spell Focus: Conjuration, Steel Soul
Skills Diplomacy +4, K (Arcana) +7, K (Nobility) +7, Perception +7 (+9 when Juble is within 5 feet), Spellcraft +7
Traits Militant Merchant, Strength of the Land
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc
SQ arcane bond (thrush), resistance, thassilonian magic (envy)
Combat Gear acid (3), alchemist's fire (3), scroll of mage armour; Other Gear heavy pick, sling and 10 bullets, haramaki, backpack, chalk (20 pieces), empty sacks (2), flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), spell component pouch, spellbook, 17gp 5sp
Spellbook 0 - all but evocation and necromancy; 1st - alarm, protection from evil, shield, grease, burning hands, expeditious retreat
Juble (thrush familiar)
N Diminuative magical beast
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +9
DEFENCE
AC 17, touch 16, flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, +1 natural armour, +4 size)
Hp 5 (1HD)
Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +4
Defensive Abilities improved evasion
OFFENCE
Speed 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee bite +5 (1d2-5)
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 1, Dex 15, Con 6, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 3
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Diplomacy -1, Fly +12, K (Arcana) -1, K (Nobility) -1, Perception +9, Spellcraft -1
SQ empathic link, share spells
Okay, I've changed my mind and am now playing an envious dwarf. Abjurers don't get enough street cred, and non-blasty wizards don't get nearly enough playtime where I do PFS.
** spoiler omitted **...
burning hands is an evocation spell, i'd replace it with colour spray or sleep.
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First:
the Thassilonian specialist isn't a archetype. In Magic of the Inner Sea the archetypes are in chapter 4: Spellcasters of the Inner Sea, the Thassilionian specialist is in chapter 2: Variant Magic.
Second:
Thassilonian Specialists
Only wizards can truly follow the ancient philosophies created by Thassilon’s runelords, for only wizards have the capability to specialize in a school of magic.
The choice to specialize in a Thassilonian school of magic must be made when a character first becomes a wizard. Once the choice to do so is made, it cannot be changed.Benefits: A Thassilonian specialist wizard receives two additional spell slots of each spell level he can cast. These bonus spell slots must both be used to prepare the same spell from the wizard’s school of specialization, allowing the wizard to cast that spell twice (as he has prepared the spell twice). The wizard cannot use these slots to prepare two different spells, even if they are of the school he is specialized in.
Restrictions: A Thassilonian specialist does not get to customize his choice for opposition schools—that choice is selected for him when he chooses his specialization. These restrictions are more significant than those most wizards follow, and are known as prohibited schools. A Thassilonian wizard can never prepare a spell that is in one of his prohibited schools—he treats these spells as if they were not on the wizard spell list. If using a spell trigger or spell completion item to cast a spell from one of his prohibited schools, he must use the Use Magic Device skill to do so.
Arcane School: A wizard can choose to specialize in one school of magic, gaining additional spells and powers based on that school. This choice must be made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed. A wizard that does not select a school receives the universalist school instead.A wizard that chooses to specialize in one school of magic must select two other schools as his opposition schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. For example, a wizard with evocation as an opposition school must expend two of his available 3rd-level spell slots to prepare a fireball. In addition, a specialist takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite. A universalist wizard can prepare spells from any school without restriction.
Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot. Wizards with the universalist school do not receive a school slot.
The Thassilonian Specialists description is very similar to that of a normal specialist. Unless you allow someone to double specialize I don't see how they could stack.
I agree that without the specialization powers the Thassilonian Specialists pay a high cost for a extra spell, but I really doubt it is meant to stack.
the most probable interpretation of ROI, in my eyes, is that it was meant to be a further level of specialization, where you you specialize in a school of magic normally, then you replace the single specialization spell with 2 and lose access to two school of magic.
I will ask JJ an opinion, as he is the guy that decide what is canon in Golarion.
Two extra spells per level is insanely powerful. Seriously. The moment the wizard hits level 5, he can dish out three + Int bonus spells fireballs. Compare that to the one + bonus spells that non specialists can, after which they are back to using 2nd level and lower spells again. It is an advantage that keeps giving, too, since this happens at every level of spells. It also means you have 2 * max spell level (not counting 0-level spells) extra spells total compared to a non specialist.
As I understand the pfsrd fluff-text the intention is to enhance the specialization, so instead of 1 spell they get the same 2 times plus specialist school power but cannot cast spells of their opposite schools.
Better than 3.0 anyway.
Insanely powerful? Yes.
But at least still not a dex-based caster...
I agree Diego but you must also admit that RAW since it is not an archtype and the benefits do not say anything in the way of "this replaces the spell slot benefits of normal specialisation" that they do indeed appear to stack via RAW.
Not a problem in home games but something that needs clearing up for pfs play and obviously our own little discussion, i hit FAQ so hopefully some other people will too.
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Actually, RAW, I would read it as:
"This is a Arcane School. You get what is in this Arcane School description. You get exactly and only what is in this Arcane School description as we haven't specified that you get something from the more general Arcane School bonuses."
The problem is that at that point he cost is very high for the benefit.
In a home game I would give the normal Arcane School benefits, remove the bonus spell and add the benefits and drawbacks of being a Thassilonian Specialist.
Note that generally identical bonuses don't stack unless it is specified in the benefit description. To make an example, if you take the Weapon Focus feat and then a prestige class give you Weapon Focus in the same weapon you don't get Greater Weapon Focus in that weapon.
I have hit FAQ.
Actually, RAW, I would read it as:
"This is a Arcane School. You get what is in this Arcane School description. You get exactly and only what is in this Arcane School description as we haven't specified that you get something from the more general Arcane School bonuses."
The problem is that at that point he cost is very high for the benefit.In a home game I would give the normal Arcane School benefits, remove the bonus spell and add the benefits and drawbacks of being a Thassilonian Specialist.
Note that generally identical bonuses don't stack unless it is specified in the benefit description. To make an example, if you take the Weapon Focus feat and then a prestige class give you Weapon Focus in the same weapon you don't get Greater Weapon Focus in that weapon.
I have hit FAQ.
I would agree entirely if this were an archtype and it had some replacement text but it seems to be a focused specialisation option which has a restrictive drawback for an added benefit on top of normal specialisation.
Normally untyped bonuses do stack unless otherwise noted.
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We go round and round. It never say it is a focused specialization. it say it is a "specialization in a school of magic", arcane school say that "A wizard can choose to specialize in one school of magic".
practically identical text.
So, as far as text go, it is a full specialization, with all the school specialization rules in that piece of text.
Claiming that it is a focused specialization without any text saying that isn't RAW.
Looking the APG I see that the Focused Arcane Schools description use this kind of format:
Creation School
Associated School: Conjuration.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the acid dart power and the dimensional steps power of the conjuration school.
something that is totally missing in the Thassilonian Specialists description.
let's hope we get something official.
the extra spells/day shouldn't stack, but you do get the school powers, James answered that in one of his threads.
Could you link in the thread? And was that ruling the same for PFS?
Could you link in the thread? And was that ruling the same for PFS?
No I can't but only because I don't know how to link on these forums, just use the search function to search the messageboards for "thassilonian specialist" and it is maybe 10th or so on the list of pages. here is the quoted text:
Yup; being a Thassilonian specialist doesn't change any of the rules for being that type of specialist. It just locks you into your prohibited schools and gives you a bonus spell slot; you still gain all the extra perks of specialization.
I don't play in PFS and as such have no clue about it.
Nice, thats a relief to be honest. Back to the spont vs prep discussion...
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I don't want to start the argument of whether James is or is not the rule guy. I will go with his ruling for now because he's the only official input thus far. I want to keep the discussion going however, because hopefully this makes it into errata or FAQ; the text as it stands just says 'two additional spell slots', but mentions nothing about the original bonus spell slots given from specialization. If it could go either way then it needs FAQ or errata clarification.
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That's the thing: it's either underpowered and badly written, or a powerful but risky option that is still pretty ambiguous. Either way the writing needs some work, and I would prefer that it were not so underpowered as "one extra spell per day that has to be the same as the other free slot, but you lose a ton of versatility."
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James has also said he ruled Two-Weapon Rend as added damage (like Sneak Attack) onto the 2nd attack if it hit. There's no official ruling I don't think on this, but I think it should just be a separate attack that hits automatically so you can get your normal damage from magic weapon traits and qualities. I think it's much more logical to do that than to add it as extra damage, but the extra damage can get 1 1/2 STR bonus to it.
James also has said he allows Spring Attack + Vital Strike, which is clearly against the rules after it was errataed into Core book.
James rules as he feels, which is great. But sometimes how he (and other GMs) feel doesn't work with the rules. That why we have rules. And when those are not clear, we ask for clarification.
Another example was healing = positive energy. Although I agree, I can see how some forms of healing isn't positive energy, like natural healing. This mattered because dhampirs are very hosed when it comes to Lay on Hands and Channeling. Even more so now that dhampires are legal targets when somebody channels to heal living creatures, and they get damaged.
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Another example was healing = positive energy. Although I agree, I can see how some forms of healing isn't positive energy, like natural healing. This mattered because dhampirs are very hosed when it comes to Lay on Hands and Channeling. Even more so now that dhampires are legal targets when somebody channels to heal living creatures, and they get damaged.
Dhampir are not harmed when someone channels to heal, ever.
You have proved your point that J.J. occasionally deviates from what the FAQ eventually shows. If you would like to speed along a final word to this, please click the FAQ at the top.
Creative Director
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Here's how Thassilonian magic works:
It works the same as normal specialization magic, save for 4 deviations:
1) You don't get the luxury of picking your two opposition schools; you have to pick the two that are hard-wired to your specialization.
2) You can't specialize in divination.
3) You can't cast spells of your opposition schools at all.
4) You do NOT gain a totally open additional bonus spell—you merely gain an additional casting per day of one spell of your chosen school.
And yes, I do deviate from the rules as written at times. All GMs do. Even ones who write for the game or write the rules themselves. When I rule against the way that the rules are intended to work... it's because I think that game play is better with that deviation from the rules. That's not wrong... that's the way the game's supposed to be played. It's SUPPOSED to be adapted to your particular table's play style. That's one of the HUGE advantages tabletop RPGs have over computer RPGs, in fact.
Here's how Thassilonian magic works:
It works the same as normal specialization magic, save for 4 deviations:
1) You don't get the luxury of picking your two opposition schools; you have to pick the two that are hard-wired to your specialization.
2) You can't specialize in divination.
3) You can't cast spells of your opposition schools at all.
4) You do NOT gain a totally open additional bonus spell—you merely gain an additional casting per day of one spell of your chosen school.
Thanks for jumping in and clarifying how it's supposed to work!
That being said, I question the design. #1 and #3 are both fairly substantial restrictions. Either one alone would be enough to balance #4. Both together means you're giving up a lot more than you're getting from a single extra casting of one spell per level (which is less useful than a new spell slot, or even a new specialization spell slot).
I see very little advantage to choosing to use Thassilonian magic over regular specialization. It's perfectly possible to play a greedy transmuter, slothful conjurer, or wrathful evoker without taking on the Thassilonian restrictions, and nothing about doing so makes you more greedy/slothful/wrathful, and only very marginally better at being a transmuter/conjurer/evoker.