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So the dual shield wielder thread inspired me to make this 12th level build:
Human Ranger 7 (Guide) / Rogue 5 (Scout, Thug)
Basically to combine the tastiness of early access shield mastery (with the ranger weapon and shield combat style) to boost my two weapon combat with two spiked heavy steel shields of bashing along with the extra damage provided by sap adept and sap mastery (shields are bashing weapons, don'cha know?)
Feats look like this: (I've only taken a minimal look at where to optimally slot them)
Human: Bludgeoner
Ranger 1: TWF
Ranger 2: Weapon Focus (Shield)
Ranger combat style 2nd: Improved Shield Bash
Ranger 4: Enforcer
Ranger 6: ITWF
Ranger combat style 6th: Shield Master
Ranger 7/Rogue 1: Sap adept
Ranger 7/Rogue 2: (Rogue 2nd level talent, Combat Trick): Dazzling Display
Ranger 7/Rogue 3: Shatter Defenses
Ranger 7/Rogue 5: Sap Master
Rogue talents:
2nd: Combat Trick (Dazzling Display)
4th: Ninja Trick (Pressure Points)
So where does the damage come from? Here is the breakdown:
3d6(Spiked heavy shield of bashing with lead blades cast) +
6d6 (Double Sneak Attack Damage from Sap Mastery) +
6 (Damage based on Sneak Attack from Sap Adept) +
6 (Strength bonus) +
4 (Enhancement bonus on Shields) +
4 (Ranger's Focus from the Guide archetype)
So thats 9d6 + 20 damage/hit, doable every hit thanks to enforcer (which allows you to threaten enemy as a free action) and Shatter Defenses (Shaken enemies are now flat footed) combined with sap mastery.
Multiply that by 4 for 4 attacks, and thats where you get 36d6 + 80 damage.
Best part? This is all done by the character himself, no wizard/cleric required for buffing or ally for flanking. With the scout rogue archetype, he can do this damage on a charge attack (in case he needs to close) and with the thug archetype, he can leave any enemy he threatens frightened instead of shaken, so they run off and do nothing for a turn.
Of course this isn't anywhere near optimized yet, but it's a good start for a damage focused TWF build that doesn't have to spend an arm and a leg on weapons.
prototype00
Edit: Also, pressure points means that if foes survive the damage, they're also taking 4 points of str or dex damage per round.
Don't use ranger. Use the Brawler fighter archetype instead. See this thread for details.
All I can say is, if that works and the GM allows it, that is genius!
If I were GM I might think it impractical to carry around two shields and I don't see how anyone in reality could wield two shields, but if I were running a fun campaign, I'd allow it. :p
If you could take the damage up to 72d6 + 160, I'd be even more impressed. Sadly though, I'm pretty sure that is impossible. Still would be funny though. I just imagine a character of this type to be extremely comical.
I mean why does he need to be serious when he knows he's a badass with that much damage output.
All I can say is, if that works and the GM allows it, that is genius!
If I were GM I might think it impractical to carry around two shields and I don't see how anyone in reality could wield two shields, but if I were running a fun campaign, I'd allow it. :p
If you could take the damage up to 72d6 + 160, I'd be even more impressed. Sadly though, I'm pretty sure that is impossible. Still would be funny though. I just imagine a character of this type to be extremely comical.
I mean why does he need to be serious when he knows he's a badass with that much damage output.
Ahhh. You must have missed the huge debate with James about dual wielding shields and how it has a real world basis. Silly yes, but still real nonetheless and of course it is perfectly legal.
I don't know if a dm would rule your shields still as bashing type for sap adept when you've got spikes on them.
Don't use ranger. Use the Brawler fighter archetype instead. See this thread for details.
I'm not keen on having to wait till level 11 for Shield master and would rather get it as early as I can. The Brawler does have a good bonus to damage, but I think the ranger's favored enemy bonus (+4 to hit and damage 3/day) is not a bad replacement.
The Brawler does edge out in control (the no escape ability), so if I was to build a control based character, thats where I might try the brawler.
TL:DR: Shield Master at lvl 6 not lvl 11.
All I can say is, if that works and the GM allows it, that is genius!
If I were GM I might think it impractical to carry around two shields and I don't see how anyone in reality could wield two shields, but if I were running a fun campaign, I'd allow it. :p
I direct your attention to this real-world martial art:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
Twin heavy shield fighting technique.
If you could take the damage up to 72d6 + 160, I'd be even more impressed. Sadly though, I'm pretty sure that is impossible. Still would be funny though. I just imagine a character of this type to be extremely comical.
This is only a lvl 12 build, in my theoretical lvl 20 Ranger 10 / Rogue 10 build this character does:
4d6(Enlarged Person Spiked heavy shield of bashing with lead blades cast) +
10d6 (Double Sneak Attack Damage from Sap Mastery) +
10 (Damage based on Sneak Attack from Sap Adept) +
9 (Strength bonus) +
5 (Enhancement bonus on Shields) +
6 (Ranger's Focus from the Guide archetype)
For 8 attacks a round for theoretically 112d6 + 240 damage/ round. All still on his own devices (assuming you take minor and major magic as rogue talents for enlarge person)
I mean why does he need to be serious when he knows he's a badass with that much damage output.
Man, this character is serious, serious about doing damage, that is.
prototype00
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Ahhh. You must have missed the huge debate with James about dual wielding shields and how it has a real world basis. Silly yes, but still real nonetheless and of course it is perfectly legal.I don't know if a dm would rule your shields still as bashing type for sap adept when you've got spikes on them.
Ah, right, might have to take the spikes off then. Shame, they were good for damage.
Without them, its 8d6 instead of 9d6 per hit, so 32d6 + 80. I'm disappointed, but not overly so.
prototype00
Also consider trading out rogue for ninja. Ki pool nets you another attack at max bab unless there is something that you specifically need from rogue that you cannot get from ninja
Also consider trading out rogue for ninja. Ki pool nets you another attack at max bab unless there is something that you specifically need from rogue that you cannot get from ninja
The thug archetype, mostly, which I have to give up trapfinding for.
Also, Batter McShieldbash isn't pretty. (Probably low to average cha, bad for ki pool)
prototype00
Gotcha. Dropping the cash for a headband isn't really worth it when wands of haste are cheap by comparison.
Ahah. Keep the spikes and get them enchanted with the merciful quality. Damage type doesn't need to be bashing it needs to be non lethal. Must find caffeine.
Ahhh. You must have missed the huge debate with James about dual wielding shields and how it has a real world basis. Silly yes, but still real nonetheless and of course it is perfectly legal.
I don't know if a dm would rule your shields still as bashing type for sap adept when you've got spikes on them.
Yea, I'm not a huge contributor on here if I'm honest.
I usually post only when I need advice on things such as character builds and concepts. I'm more of a Video Gamer and spend a lot of my time running and hosting Community Events voluntarily for Capcom and Sony, which is what I want to eventually do career wise.
So yea, I don't get to catch many interesting or fun topics on here, but I'm used to forums, so know what you can and can't do and the most important rule of all; Treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. In other words, with respect. :p
As for dual shield fighting.....I now know that such a thing is practical in the real world. It's pretty amazing actually and is definitely different.
@prototype - Can you actually get 8 attacks off, because from what I was aware of, the most attacks any TWF type can get is about 6, with monk being the highest at 7.
Still, if you have a legal way, I'm even more impressed. That damage just kicked the crap out of my Martial Artist, Unarmed Monk. :p
Me like! make them throwing shields from the gladiatorial weapons section of UC and give them returning, and suddenly you've got ranged weapons in a pinch.
Gotcha. Dropping the cash for a headband isn't really worth it when wands of haste are cheap by comparison.
Ahah. Keep the spikes and get them enchanted with the merciful quality. Damage type doesn't need to be bashing it needs to be non lethal. Must find caffeine.
It needs to be bludgeoning, I'm afraid.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
Though merciful is good advice for later for more damage.
prototype00
@prototype - Can you actually get 8 attacks off, because from what I was aware of, the most attacks any TWF type can get is about 6, with monk being the highest at 7.Still, if you have a legal way, I'm even more impressed. That damage just kicked the crap out of my Martial Artist, Unarmed Monk. :p
Hmm, 17 final BAB, so that is 4 attacks, 3 offhand attacks at no penalty and 1 attack due to boots of haste.
8 all together. Though hitting is not guarunteed of course, hence theoretical.
prototype00
Hmm, 17 final BAB, so that is 4 attacks, 3 offhand attacks at no penalty and 1 attack due to boots of haste.
8 all together. Though hitting is not guarunteed of course, hence theoretical.
prototype00
Ah, I'm still new to a lot of aspects of the game, so thought you could only get two additional off hand attacks for some reason, but that's nice haste can give you another attack!
Really looking forward to seeing your final build. The overwhelming power of it is ridiculous and my GM would probably just disallow it for that simple reason. :(
Yar.
Sap Adept and Sap Master both specify Bludgeoning. Adding spikes to a shield changes it's damage type to Piercing. You'll need to pick one of the other, as they will not work together.
EDIT: ah, I see you caught that already... ^_^
~P
Yeah read it one way the first time and the other the second. -6:16 am here-
Still not too shabby a start. I wonder if a dm would let you reverse engineer a lion's shield and what would the enchantment cost would be.
yes, and when you meet a monster that is immune to nonlethal damage, you're screwed, because you do nonlethal damage or you can't use sap master.
I prefer my rake, pounce, constrict beastmoprh vivisectionist with sap master, thank you. It's got that ridiculous damage, but it ain't got that ridiculous 2 shield wielding thing.
At least you're not a total munchkin, because total munchkins use all that with merciful double barreled pistols.
yes, and when you meet a monster that is immune to nonlethal damage, you're screwed, because you do nonlethal damage or you can't use sap master.
I prefer my rake, pounce, constrict beastmoprh vivisectionist with sap master, thank you. It's got that ridiculous damage, but it ain't got that ridiculous 2 shield wielding thing.
At least you're not a total munchkin, because total munchkins use all that with merciful double barreled pistols.
Well, if I meet the nonlethal-damage immune monster, I am still a ranger weilding two 2d6 one handed weapons, that double as fully enchanted shields, with a +13 bonus to damage per hit and no penalties to off hand attacks.
I think I can handle myself. ;P
prototype00
Well, if I meet the nonlethal-damage immune monster, I am still a ranger weilding two 2d6 one handed weapons, that double as fully enchanted shields, with a +13 bonus to damage per hit and no penalties to off hand attacks.
I think I can handle myself. ;P
prototype00
That's a max of 200 damage with your lethal attacks. :p
I'm thinking of a character concept for the equivalent of Iron Man's Whiplash.
Possibly a Two-Weapon Fighter/Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with two Urumi's that each deal 1d8 damage at 18-20x2. 8 attacks with power attack and weapon specialisation etc. It might work. :/
Certain disclaimers to the build, this character lacks the feat to add full strength to the offhand, so we can knock off a couple of points off the final damage total for that. But otherwise, it seems sound.
I think the motto for this character should be:
First they laughed,
Then they cried,
Then they were afraid.
prototype00
Then they were dead.
TL:DR: Shield Master at lvl 6 not lvl 11.
Also Shield Slam at level 2 instead of level 6. Helps you become battlefield control nice and early.
I direct your attention to this real-world martial art:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
Twin heavy shield fighting technique.
That's awesome, thank you! Going to add that to my old thread about dual shield rangers.
TL:DR: Shield Master at lvl 6 not lvl 11.Also Shield Slam at level 2 instead of level 6. Helps you become battlefield control nice and early.
That's awesome, thank you! Going to add that to my old thread about dual shield rangers.I direct your attention to this real-world martial art:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
Twin heavy shield fighting technique.
Oh hey Stream! Didn't expect to see you around. What did you think of the build? Its got rogue in it (which I know you hate), but 5 levels of rogue for 6d6 damage per hit is a good trade, what do you think?
I really wanted to take shield slam, but the build was a bit feat intensive (to get the damage boosting stuff in), this character will probably start building a bit towards control now that he's got the damage stuff settled.
prototype00
Oh hey Stream! Didn't expect to see you around. What did you think of the build? Its got rogue in it (which I know you hate), but 5 levels of rogue for 6d6 damage per hit is a good trade, what do you think?
I really wanted to take shield slam, but the build was a bit feat intensive (to get the damage boosting stuff in), this character will probably start building a bit towards control now that he's got the damage stuff settled.
prototype00
Yeah, I decided to join here finally instead of just lurk. :)
And I don't hate rogues. They're my favorite type of character, I just hate how poor they are in PF. As a multiclass with Fighter or the like it still works.Your build seems fine for pure damage, though you're right, bludgeoner/sap adept/sap master don't work with spiked shields, since they make your damage piercing. You're pretty limited by the SA and nonlethal for when and who you can damage, but that's alright.
If you want to pump the damage higher after this, consider taking some Master of Many Style Monk and Combat Reflexes for Snake Fang. Every time a foe misses you, you can AoO with an unarmed strike. It's not shield bashing, but sap master would apply.
If I were GM I might think it impractical to carry around two shields and I don't see how anyone in reality could wield two shields, but if I were running a fun campaign, I'd allow it. :p
I direct your attention to this real-world martial art:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
Twin heavy shield fighting technique.
Neat video..but I wouldn't call those heave shields..although its hard to say without holding them, they look pretty thin. And they are not "shield bashing" as much as combining a short sword sized edge as a slashing weapon.
If I were GM I might think it impractical to carry around two shields and I don't see how anyone in reality could wield two shields, but if I were running a fun campaign, I'd allow it. :p
I direct your attention to this real-world martial art:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
Twin heavy shield fighting technique.
Neat video..but I wouldn't call those heave shields..although its hard to say without holding them, they look pretty thin. And they are not "shield bashing" as much as combining a short sword sized edge as a slashing weapon.
20lbs according to comments posted by the video uploader (who had asked previous students of the teacher), thats 5 lbs more than SRD heavy steel shield weight.
Also, there are bashing moves in that routine, I'd say. It's silly to not use every part of the shield to attack.
prototype00
Hmm, small question, with shield master, does the enhancement bonus to AC (which now counts as an enhancement bonus to attack and damage) count if the shield is converted to a throwing shield? (As it says shield spikes and enhancement bonuses to AC don't count).
prototype00
combat with two spiked heavy steel shields of bashing along with the extra damage provided by sap adept and sap mastery (shields are bashing weapons, don'cha know?)Um... a spiked shield is a piercing weapon, not a blunt weapon.
The sap feats won't work with one (or two).
You'd have to lose the spikes to keep them blunt weapons, and thus drop your base damage die down a size category, to use the sap feats along with.
Thanks, but that had been pointed out to me earlier by Jak. It is a shame to lose the damage, but not too big an issue.
prototype00
I feel kind of silly because I realized that PF gives you feats at odd levels not even levels, though that is what the build is based on. Feats need to be shuffled around somewhat, but is basically the same.
prototype00
I ended up rolling this character up in Hero Labs to the best of my ability. I've got two versions, one built up with Batter as a Ranger 7/ Rogue 5, and one as a Ranger 6/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 5. The main difference is a Ranger doesn't get Heavy Armor, while the Fighter does.
Both versions have Lead Blades cast on them.
Ranger/Rogue This one takes an extra round to get to where he is. He has to cast Bear's Endurance in addition to Lead Blades to get his HP to 101. This one also has slightly better save due to the +3 cloak instead of +2.
Ranger/Fighter/Rogue This is probably the most powerful version with his AC 31 instead of 23. However, he's not as good at his skills because of his armor check penalty.
I think, if it came down to it, I'd play the fighter, and from there, level up in Figther and Rogue to reduce the armor penalty and keep the sneak up. Plus, more feats. I see Shield Slam and Greater Shield Focus as some immediate choices for the Fighter. I'd choose the same feats for the Ranger, but first he's got to get Shield Focus. From there, Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend for both.
I ended up rolling this character up in Hero Labs to the best of my ability. I've got two versions, one built up with Batter as a Ranger 7/ Rogue 5, and one as a Ranger 6/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 5. The main difference is a Ranger doesn't get Heavy Armor, while the Fighter does.
Both versions have Lead Blades cast on them.
Ranger/Rogue This one takes an extra round to get to where he is. He has to cast Bear's Endurance in addition to Lead Blades to get his HP to 101. This one also has slightly better save due to the +3 cloak instead of +2.
Ranger/Fighter/Rogue This is probably the most powerful version with his AC 31 instead of 23. However, he's not as good at his skills because of his armor check penalty.
I think, if it came down to it, I'd play the fighter, and from there, level up in Figther and Rogue to reduce the armor penalty and keep the sneak up. Plus, more feats. I see Shield Slam and Greater Shield Focus as some immediate choices for the Fighter. I'd choose the same feats for the Ranger, but first he's got to get Shield Focus. From there, Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend for both.
The builds look good, very good. I'd possibly tweak charisma, because intimidate is key to getting a lot of the abilities to key off, but then again theres the feat that lets you use strength instead of charisma for intimidate, so not a big deal.
The extra level of ranger was for another use of the guide focus ability. I kept to lighter armor (mithril breastplate is perfect, as rangers know how to use medium armor, and it counts as light) so as to use the rogue's evasion, which should be a good help for survivability if not AC. Hence for that reason I like the ranger level better, but the fighther does have the brawler archetype (9 levels if you want to get anything nice in it though, eugh.)
Double Slice and Two-Weapon rend are more or less must have feats, but I wasn't able to slip them in and still keep damage. Shame, that.
Well done, what did you think overall of the concept, Tels?
prototype00
It's Str in addition to Cha
AND a rogue can get it as a talent. Fun times.
Ah, well caught. That would probably be a better talent than pressure points for overall build effectiveness.
prototype00
Nice enough build, I just worry how it will fair against things immune to non-lethal or things with regen/fast healing as they effectively heal double.
and anything which can get a general heal of some sort during combat is also healing double.
That pesky npc that manges to teleport away can heal up alot more efficiently with a mix of lethal and non lethal wounds.
its why I like the spell ablative armor that converts 5 lethal to 5 non-lethal, makes any healing twice as effective.
this is of course on top of things already immune from sneak dmg plus you still need to get your full sneaks somehow which won't always happen and may require you to move to get preventing you from getting your full attack
Nice enough build, I just worry how it will fair against things immune to non-lethal or things with regen/fast healing as they effectively heal double.
True enough, against things immune to nonlethal, you can switch to doing lethal damage. Less, but still a considerable amount (Batter is still effectively a ranger, which is death on wheels)
and anything which can get a general heal of some sort during combat is also healing double.
Can't dispute this, the trick is to make them frightened, and since all they're doing at that point is running away, they won't be healing himself at least.
That pesky npc that manges to teleport away can heal up alot more efficiently with a mix of lethal and non lethal wounds.
I think that NPC annoys everyone though.
this is of course on top of things already immune from sneak dmg plus you still need to get your full sneaks somehow which won't always happen and may require you to move to get preventing you from getting your full attack
Well, scout helps mitigate that somewhat, as long as I move, I can still get sap adept/master off and probably make them frightened, and take them out of the fight for a round, which is better than most fighters could do under similar circumstances.
prototype00
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It'll take you three rounds of prep to cast Lead Blades on two weapons and make a Dazzling Display.
Ranger7 [Guide] using his focus at 7th = +4/+4 attack/damage versus two select targets per day.
Barb4 [any] raging with Reckless Abandon+2 = +4/+2 attack/damage versus all targets for CON bonus+10 rounds per day.
It'll take you three rounds of prep to cast Lead Blades on two weapons and make a Dazzling Display.
Dazzling display is a speedbump feat. It will never, ever, get used and is only useful for picking up shatter defenses, which gets used as a free action, all the time (or at least whenever this character hits an enemy).
Lead blades isn't strictly required to be cast, as all it does is raise damage from 1d8 to 2d6, not really something to crow about. If the ranger has a spare moment, fine, but once again, better things to do in combat.
Really, this character has no prep time at all. He's good to go from round one.
Ranger7 [Guide] using his focus at 7th = +4/+4 attack/damage versus two select targets per day.Barb4 [any] raging with Reckless Abandon+2 = +4/+2 attack/damage versus all targets for CON bonus+10 rounds per day.
Hmm, two points here:
1.) Guide focus: two targets per day Until they are dead, they can escape the fight and come back, and it'll still be on them. That is potentially more rounds than y'know, 14. And I'm not fatigued by it, bonus.
2.) For most enemies, it really is just a nice bonus to have, on top of the 6d6 damage that I am doing to them with every hit. How many extra d6s does the barbarian have to throw around?
prototype00
It'll take you three rounds of prep to cast Lead Blades on two weapons and make a Dazzling Display.
Ranger7 [Guide] using his focus at 7th = +4/+4 attack/damage versus two select targets per day.
Barb4 [any] raging with Reckless Abandon+2 = +4/+2 attack/damage versus all targets for CON bonus+10 rounds per day.
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are.
Emphasis mine. That reduces the prep time down. But like Proto said, the real damage comes from the extra dice. For an extended fight, sure cast Lead Blades, against a boss? Yeah, cast Lead Blades, for the misc. guys running around a dungeon? Pfft, Razzle Dazzle SNEAK ATTACK!
Same concept applies to the Guide ability. You want to save those for people you really need it for. Granted, normal favored enemy in a dungeon of favored enemies > Guide ability, but, it only applies to your favored enemies. In some ways, I prefer the Guide ability over favored enemy, as it allows a some more versatility. But a normal Ranger in an environment that suits his strengths? Now he's unstoppable.
Besides, it seems everyone and their grandmother level dips for the Hulk Smash Rage, so I try to stay away from that.