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We've got a synthesist summoner in our group who uses the Caravan vanity in the Field Guide, which allows him to use diplomacy for his day job rolls.
He's tweaked his character to give as many bonuses to diplomacy as possible (ranks, traits +4, point buy +5, class +3), which so far is fine - but then his fused eidolon also gives him a +8 to diplomacy, adding up to about +21 to diplomacy, ensuring 20gp minimum on a bad day job roll of 1, and 150gp on a good roll of 19 or better.
You can see that you can get a 21 diplomacy score at level 1 here, and take into acccount the Caravan vanity (from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide) costs 5 prestige, or 3 scenarios. So 22 diplomacy at level 2, and 1-2 for 20gp or 18-20 for 150gp.
Page 17 of the PFS guide says only permanent bonuses such as" equipment, feats, racial bonuses and traits affect day job rolls as they would any check of the rolled skill, but temporary bonuses granted by magical effects do not contribute.
My question - does the synthesist summoner's fused ability count as legit for the day job roll? The +8 fused eidolon bonus is the big game changer here, so it's important this is clarified.
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It would seem so. The Synthesist gains access to the Eidolon's evolutions and it's a racial bonus which is legal for Day Jobs. Although perhaps you can argue that it's not a permanent bonus since it is only in effect when the Eidolon is present. Honestly, I would be more concerned about it's impact on game-play than the Day Job. A +21 Diplomacy score will likely make all skills checks an auto-success. Not much fun, IMO, if the results are always predetermined with no chance of failure.
What are ya gonna do? Some classes, like Summoner, lend themselves to extremely optimized builds. If the build is being disruptive to the other player's or GM's enjoyment of the game, I would talk to the player "off-line" and express your concerns. Otherwise, it is what it is I'm afraid.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I'm first off, interested in what traits he's using, because all the trait skill bonuses I've ever seen all say they provide a +X trait bonus, which would not stack with another trait bonus. The highest trait bonus for diplomacy I've seen is +2, though maybe talking about a racial trait, but just checked and only gnome has a +1 to diplomacy.
I would rule against it, as it is from a magical effect. He cannot wear his eidolon 24/7, so I'd say they're temp magical effects. Now at 10th lvl when he gets aspect and can take his own evolutions, then I'd allow it.
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The traits are Extremely Fashionable (he's wearing the right clothes), and Patient Optimist.
Sorry, I must be wrong about +4 here, it's +1 from EF and it looks like Patient Optimist's +2 bonus doesn't apply here (which I'm not sure he's realised).
Whether the diplomacy near-auto-success is detrimental to gameplay is another story, my main purpose here is to determine if it's kosher on the day jobs.
"Magical effects" I would assume included things like Eagle's Splendour, which don't last the entire day. "Equipment" can be considered permanent here, and you don't use that 24/7 either.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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As for the traits (just so he knows), again both provide a "trait bonus" so they wouldn't stack. When trying to influence hostile or unfriendly creatures, he'd only get a +1 bonus, since the +1 and +2 would overlap, not stack.
I've got another question: What does his Eidolon look like?
Depending on how he describes it, if he were wearing it while trying to pull off extremely fashionable, I might disallow that too.
Extremely Fashionable: You really know how to make
a good impression when you’re dressed well. Whenever
you are wearing clothing and/or jewelry worth at least 150
gp (and not otherwise covered in gore, sewage, or other
things that mar your overall look), you gain a +1 trait
bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. One
of these skills (your choice) is a class skill for you.
But otherwise, you're really only talking about an average of approx. 40 extra gp for Day Job at first level, which is no where near game breaking. I don't see an extra 100-200 extra gold per level as being that big of a deal.
From what I understand of a Summoner, they can have their Eidolon summoned/fused indefinitely unless the summoner sleeps. So it is feasible to assume that the eidolon is fused any time the summoner is awake and doing the Day Job, just like equipment.
EDIT: He can easily make up the +3 he's not getting from traits with gear (ioun + master tool).
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We'd never disallow it based on what the eidolon looks like. He looks great, as far as we care. I don't think you can/should disallow it based on how he describes it - the +8 bonus to diplomacy is definitive regardless.
Very specifically, I just want to know if the rules actually allow the fused eidolon to count as a permanent bonus or not (which it seems like it does).
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There's something else worth mentioning.
In the APG, it says under the Skilled evolution:
Skilled (Ex): An eidolon becomes especially adept at a specific skill, gaining a +8 racial bonus on that skill. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different skill.
Yet in Ultimate Magic, it says under Synthesist Summoner (p80):
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
This seems contradictory? Are synthesist summoners not allowed to take the Skilled evolution? Or just that the Eidolon itself can't use its own skills (eg. to roll its own skill check, for example, as well as the summoner's skill check)?
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There's something else worth mentioning.
In the APG, it says under the Skilled evolution:
Skilled (Ex): An eidolon becomes especially adept at a specific skill, gaining a +8 racial bonus on that skill. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different skill.
I think this means you cannot take the skilled evolution twice for the same skill. Other, seperate modifiers, like Cha and circumstance bonuses would still stack.
Yet in Ultimate Magic, it says under Synthesist Summoner (p80):
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
They have the PC's skills instead, as the part of the synthesist you don't quote clearly states. Skilled would stack with the PC's skills. That much is obvious.
As to whether this is unbalanced, I'd say, in a very minor way. Day jobs are basically chump change. An extra 20-50 gp per scenario won't unbalance a thing.
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Sounds sort of cheesy not for the Day Job (really could care less about that), but for Diplomacy rolls made in-game. Bob is right about the auto-success of rolls made throughout a scenario.
That's fine if this person wants to go the synthesist summoner right, they do lead to pretty optimized builds. Just make sure they realize healing their suit is pretty taxing.
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I think the key is that in order to use a bonus on the Day Job, it seems the intent is that it is a permanent bonus. The rules for bonuses seem to imply that a bonus becomes "permanent" after 24 hours. Since the Summoner has to sleep and the Eidolon is dismissed while he sleeps, the skilled evolution, with respect to the Summoner, would always be temporary. Therefore, not applicable to the Day Job roll.
I know there are a lot assumptions in that logic, but in lieu of a specific answer, I think it is just as plausible as any other. And, IMO, it follows the "spirit" of the Day Job being something you have to "earn" and not just some automatic mechanic to boost your position on the wealth curve. Opinions vary.
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We'd never disallow it based on what the eidolon looks like. He looks great, as far as we care. I don't think you can/should disallow it based on how he describes it - the +8 bonus to diplomacy is definitive regardless.
Very specifically, I just want to know if the rules actually allow the fused eidolon to count as a permanent bonus or not (which it seems like it does).
Actually, if he describes his eidolon as looking horrific, or even angelically alien, but not "Extremely Fashionable" then yeah, he wouldn't get his +1 trait bonus while the Eidolon is out... but then the Eidolon would give him a +8, so it kinda mitigates not getting the +1.
However, being extremely fashionable, I don't know why he wouldn't have his Eidolon also be extremely fashionable, especially if that's how he wants to play things.
But I agree with Bob. The Eidolon is not a permanent effect, therefore should not apply to Day Jobs.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Didn't you know that Piscadaemons are the cutting edge of haute couture in the Inner Sea region this year?
Seriously, there are bonuses to Intimidate, and bonuses to Diplomacy, and they're not always the same. Some elements that boost your Intimidate, like Hellknight armor or being covered in blood (not all of which is yours) are a circumstance penalty to Diplomacy.
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| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Added to the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Eidolon is not a permanent effect, therefore does not apply to day job rolls.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Related but somewhat different. We have an inquisitor that focuses in Intimidate (for blistering invective, etc) and is helped by a trait, a feat or two, and some equipment (like the mask of intimidation or fear from one of the modules). He has a caravan as well, and his day job checks are fairly silly now that he's level 5+. No one really minds the extra income, definitely not me as a GM, because he uses Intimidate in combat to demoralize all the time.
I think he intimidates more than attacking actually. It's a welcome change from what usually transpires in combat, so when I see him coming I just pull the "shaken" condition card out and leave it next to me the entire game. As far as the extra coin... he just spends it on party goods, like wands of CLW or scrolls.
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Related but somewhat different. We have an inquisitor that focuses in Intimidate (for blistering invective, etc) and is helped by a trait, a feat or two, and some equipment (like the mask of intimidation or fear from one of the modules). He has a caravan as well, and his day job checks are fairly silly now that he's level 5+. No one really minds the extra income, definitely not me as a GM, because he uses Intimidate in combat to demoralize all the time.
I think he intimidates more than attacking actually. It's a welcome change from what usually transpires in combat, so when I see him coming I just pull the "shaken" condition card out and leave it next to me the entire game. As far as the extra coin... he just spends it on party goods, like wands of CLW or scrolls.
Minimum 28 on that intimidate now. After the game tonight 1/22/12 it will be 29... I WILL INTIMIDATE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! except undead... bastard undead immunities!
wtb
Requirements 7 ranks in Intimidate, Stern Gaze class feature
As a standard action you can make an intimidate check against Creatures usually immune to fear effects at a -5 penalty.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Minimum 28 on that intimidate now. After the game tonight 1/22/12 it will be 29... I WILL INTIMIDATE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! except undead... bastard undead immunities!wtb** spoiler omitted **
Ausk is like the poster child for Golarion's version of Insanity Wolf.
The Eidolon is not a permanent effect, therefore does not apply to day job rolls.
The eidolon is (or can be) there all the time when the character is doing anything other than sleeping. ...that is permanent for all intents and purposes.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Ausk is like the poster child for Golarion's version of Insanity Wolf.
YES!!!!!!
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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The Eidolon is not a permanent effect, therefore does not apply to day job rolls.The eidolon is (or can be) there all the time when the character is doing anything other than sleeping. ...that is permanent for all intents and purposes.
Not according to Mike, the PFS Campaign Coordinator, so no use contradicting him.
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Generally, "Added to the FAQ" means that it has been slated to be added. It's not that it necessarily has been put in, but rather that it will be as soon as they work out the wording, and/or the folks in IT, or whomever, manage to have the opportunity to add the necessary stuff to the webpage.
It'll be there soon enough, I'm certain. I've seen them appear fairly quickly (often within not more than a few days).
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The Eidolon is not a permanent effect, therefore does not apply to day job rolls.
Not in any way opposing what Mike is saying here but what about the feat that lets you keep the Eidolon while sleeping? Would that make it permanent?
Also this is no longer true at level 10 when the synthesist can just take the evolution herself. That's a ways off though and eliminates the majority of the problem.
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Sounds sort of cheesy not for the Day Job (really could care less about that), but for Diplomacy rolls made in-game. Bob is right about the auto-success of rolls made throughout a scenario.
That's fine if this person wants to go the synthesist summoner right, they do lead to pretty optimized builds. url]
The thing is, if I am using an evolution for diplomacy, I am not using that evolution point for offense or defence.
For the record. I have Skilled: Diplomacy on my PFS character.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Not in any way opposing what Mike is saying here but what about the feat that lets you keep the Eidolon while sleeping? Would that make it permanent?
You mean this feat?
Resilient Eidolon
Your link with your eidolon is strong enough that it can
remain with you for a short time after you fall unconscious
or are killed.
Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.
Benefit: If you are knocked unconscious, fall asleep, or
are killed, your eidolon remains for a number of rounds
equal to your summoner level before it is banished. If you
are brought back to consciousness before this duration
expires, your eidolon is not banished. If the duration
expires before you are brought back to consciousness,
your eidolon is banished normally.
Normal: An eidolon is immediately banished when its
summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed.
So I suppose if you sleep in 30 second intervals it would work.
But yeah, nothing stopping you from using skilled yourself at 10th lvl and applying it, of course for PFS that's, what, 10 scenarios you could use it with? or 16 if you were on slow track. At that point, why?
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My suli paladin/ninja has 21 diplomacy at level 4. It's not really even maxed out, I could have gotten few extra points easily.
I don't consider it cheesy with day job and caravan vanity. Money you get from day job really doesn't add that much. But it sure feels cheesy when you make those diplomacy rolls in scenarios.
We have one guy in our lodge who has maxed out perform day job and certain boons you get from certain scenarios etc. He can always roll 600g from day job rolls. (boon allows more money than normal maximum) he always plays slow advancement thus maxing out his cash flow. While his day job roll is very cheesy he doesn't do that much in combat.
If you max character for something, it usually lacks in other things he can do.
Edit: Duh didn't notice I replied to necro thread as well. My bad.
