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As I'm sure everyone is aware, even with a crap Int you still get at least one skill point per level. But what happens when you're human and when you get skills for favored class? It's a question of order of operations. For example:
Goofus is a dwarf fighter with an Int of 7 for a modifier of -2. Two skills per level minus two would be zero but he still gets 1 because of the rules for skill points.
Doofus is a human fighter with an Int of 7 for a modifier of -2. Two skills per level minus two would be zero. At this point you either bump it up to 1 because of the rules for skill points and add 1 for being a human for a total of two or you bump it up to 1 for being a human and the rules for skill points for dumb PC's doesn't come into effect.
Mr. Fishy says they get the stick.
I'm paraphrasing, of course.
I would add the total then take the -2. The favored class can change so I would not count that in but 2 for class one for human is 3 skill points -2= 1 skill point
So you have 1 skill point ya may bump it to 2 if ya use your favored class skill point
The way that I would have ruled it in my games is that an Int 7 human with favored class fighter would get 3 skill points at first level, assuming they took the skill point for their first fighter level. However, since we run with a high stat array (lowest score being 10) we haven't had to bother with this.
However, I can see how one would argue that said fighter would only get one skill point. The favored class bonus and human bonus offset the Int penalty, and you still get the single skill point as required. This means that this fighter should probably take the hit point rather than the skill point for his favored class, as he gets one skill point anyway.
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The way that I would have ruled it in my games is that an Int 7 human with favored class fighter would get 3 skill points at first level, assuming they took the skill point for their first fighter level. However, since we run with a high stat array (lowest score being 10) we haven't had to bother with this.
This is also how we've been playing it.
I bring it up because I've noticed that some people on the boards play it otherwise so I was looking for justification for each position. I tend to believe a human with a low Int would get 2 (or 3 with favored class) because the section where it says you always get at least one skill point is under Intelligence. Which leads me to believe that you always get at least one base regardless of how low your intelligence is, which can then be further modified.
To each his own I guess, I always count the human point as part of the base number. If ya was a rogue it would be 9-2=7, if ya was a ranger it would be 7-2=5 so if ya was a fighter it would be 3-2 giving ya 1 point, you would still get the 1 point if it dropped ya to zero but it does not.
2 -2=0 min 1 so that is 1
then bonus for human and that is 2
then if they choose to take a fav class and use a bonus skill point that is 3
big benefit of being a human.
That is how we run it as well. (minimum, human, favored class = 3 Pts.)
If you add the race into the base number you are technically penalizing humans....
A dwarf fighter with 7 INT is "2 -2=0 min 1"
A human fighter with 7 INT is "3 -2=1 min 1"
So penalizing a human for being less intelligent while the dwarf(any non-human race) with the SAME intelligence gets a free "out of thin air" skill point.
There was a post on this a while back, *ruffle ruffle ruffle* Found it, here!
This is the PFS ruling, which to me makes it the most standardized answer if we were going to be really rule lawyer-ish.
The PFS ruling is apparently that you do in fact get two skills points per level:I'm not the end-all-be-all for the Pathfinder RPG rules. Those rules are shepherded by Jason Bulmahn and others on the editorial staff. Please do not take my interpretation of rules questions asked in the PFS threads to apply to the game as a whole. Until you hear Jason or anyone else from the editorial staff weigh in on the matter, my answers apply to PFS only.
Please do not re-raise these questions on the PFS boards just to come back over to the PRPG boards and declared what my "ruling" was. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Just saying...
I think the PF ruling is spot on.
The +1 skill point per level is a racial feature of humans and should be treated separately from the formula for determining skill points at each level.
And as Daniel Moyer points out, it can result in humans having the same skill points per level as a creature of another race with the same intelligence and class.
Humans don't get much else, so really why take that away from them?
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I'd subtract first, then add, otherwise the human isn't getting the benefit of his racial ability. Or, as one of the above put it, he's being penalized more than a dwarf with the same stats.
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I'd subtract first, then add, otherwise the human isn't getting the benefit of his racial ability. Or, as one of the above put it, he's being penalized more than a dwarf with the same stats.
Thanks, Sean. I've said it before but I'll say it again: I've spent my time and money on a lot of geek games in my life but never one where the creative staff was as involved in the community. It's pretty badass.
I think that since bonus skill point for being Human is racial trait it isn't tied to Intelligence at all and there fore would be applied after calculating you base skills per level by class plus or minus intelligence. To add the Human bonus into this calculation is removing a racial bonus. Not a good idea in my opinion. So the human racial feature means they always have minimum of 2 skill points regardless of how low their intelligence is. That's the human's racial feature to me.
Now the Favored Class bonus, no point is adding that to the calculation as all that would do is force the player to take it as hit points. So I'd leave that one out. So a human leveling in their favored class could always get a minimum of 3 skills per level no matter how low their intelligence is if the chose to.
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Now the Favored Class bonus, no point is adding that to the calculation as all that would do is force the player to take it as hit points. So I'd leave that one out. So a human leveling in their favored class could always get a minimum of 3 skills per level no matter how low their intelligence is if the chose to.
Very good point. If you have a low Int and skills per level was done with the other order of operations, there would be no decision for you and you'd have to pick HP unless you wanted to waste your favored class bonus.
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I'd subtract first, then add, otherwise the human isn't getting the benefit of his racial ability. Or, as one of the above put it, he's being penalized more than a dwarf with the same stats.
While he is being penalized more... I'd think it's the exact same as a dwarf who doesn't know all martial weapons being more penalized than a human. Or a non-spellcaster elf. Personally I think it's just a grey area in the rules that can go both ways, as a DM I'd simply rule "too bad" make a smarter character.
While he is being penalized more... I'd think it's the exact same as a dwarf who doesn't know all martial weapons being more penalized than a human. Or a non-spellcaster elf. Personally I think it's just a grey area in the rules that can go both ways, as a DM I'd simply rule "too bad" make a smarter character.
I think thats a poor analogy.
The dwarf wizard is not losing anything. He still has the ability as compared to other races. (In fact, he can take the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat at 1st level and be proficient with a dwarven waraxe, whereas a non-dwarf wizard could not since they'd have to take exotic weapon proficiency and that requires a +1 BAB.)
Theres really not a good analogy to be had in comparing the human's extra skill point to other racial abilities. The benefits of other racial abilities are not a function of a game-mechanics formula, so the human's really shouldn't be either. Its like conditioning a racial benefit on an ability score. Why should the human's skill point bonus be conditional to the human having 8 Int? Should the dwarf lose its Hatred of goblinoids ability if it has a negative attack modifier?
Yeah I know about the gnome's spellcasting, but thats true of any spell like ability. And thats more of an incidental racial ability than an inherent one. Still all gnomes get a +1 to attack verse goblinoids, regardless of any other factor. Its a result of special training. Likewise, humans get an extra skill point each level, as a result of their inherent adaptability and ability to learn.
Really I think the human's +1 skill point thing should be looked at as "treat a human's Intelligence score as two points higher for the purposes of determining skill points gained at each level."
It certainly is interesting to consider a 3 Int Human Fighter getting 3 skill points per level (and putting max ranks in Linguistics!) :)
I'm still in favor of it though, that's what savants are for.
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Really I think the human's +1 skill point thing should be looked at as "treat a human's Intelligence score as two points higher for the purposes of determining skill points gained at each level."
I think this is the most compelling argument (to me) that it would be minimum 1 before adding in the human bonus, as this would definitively show to round at the end.
However...
Yeah I know about the gnome's spellcasting, but thats true of any spell like ability. And thats more of an incidental racial ability than an inherent one. Still all gnomes get a +1 to attack verse goblinoids, regardless of any other factor. Its a result of special training. Likewise, humans get an extra skill point each level, as a result of their inherent adaptability and ability to learn.
You can't say that there isn't an analogy and then take out something that works nearly exactly the same. A gnome with lower than 10 cha simply doesn't benefit from one of it's racial bonuses, whereas only a human that has below 8 suffers (with one interpretation of the rule). The gnome's is more restrictive then. Also what about an elf's Spell Penetration ability when the elf has 9 Int, Wis, Cha, more unlikely, but still just as useless of an ability based on your stat scores.
Like I said, I agree that it's a grey area, and most likely will be addressed in a FAQ or errata.
Yep we have the official response , not the one I'll use but the official one none the less. As folks like to say INT is not a dump stat and if ya use it as such I wont let ya bypass it with a simple "But I am human". Then again no class in my game has less then 4 skill points so it's not that big an issue
I'd say it's best to err on the side of more skill points. They're such a short resource for 2 sp/lvl classes anyway.
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Can I just point out one of the developers answered you? It is meant to allow humans to always add that one afterwards; basically a human has 2 skill points. Worked that way in 3.5 too. No point in arguing further.
No, Josh answered the question with his interpretation of the rules. It can be overruled by Jason or probably Wes at any time. Josh said so when he answered it.
It's official-ish but I wouldn't set my watch and warrant on it.