Specifically, the party finds a Wand of Heal (1st Rank). The description of this wand includes "The golden caps on the ends of this white wooden wand are adorned with ruby cabochons." This gives a somewhat obvious clue to what it does. Still, best to be sure, so your party wants to Identify Magic on it. What's the DC? "The GM sets the DC" says the description. Okay.
This wand is a common level 3 item. The "DCs by level" table in the GM Core suggests the DC should then be 18. OTOH, the spell is rank 1, which suggests the DC should 15. Which should the GM use? One way to answer this is to look at the spell's traditions, which are divine and primal. So you could say that if you're using Religion or Nature to Identify Magic, you use the spell rank DC of 15, but if you're using Arcana or Occultism you use the item level DC of 18. I kind of like this but I'm not sure I can come up with a logical explanation why it should be this way. Of course, you could get lazy and just pick 15 or 18 for any attempt, but I don't like that much. What say you all?
Added: on the gripping hand, I just took a look at 1st level Ezren, who is trained in all four skills: Arcana (+7), Nature (+4), Occultism (+7), and Religion (+4). So it doesn't matter if he uses Arcana or Occultism against a DC of 18 or Nature or Religion against a DC of 15, the end result is the same. Or I've missed something. Of course, not every magic user will be trained in all four skills, so there's that.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3218&Redirected=1
To cast a spell from a wand, it must be on your spell list. Because you're the one casting the spell, use your spell attack modifier and spell DC. The spell is of your spellcasting tradition.
If you mean the DC of the Spell of the Wand, it's the Caster's Spell DC.
But, if you mean the DC to activate the wand when you want to use it with Trick Magic Item. It's a different story.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5229&Redirected=1
Attempt a check using the skill matching the item’s magic tradition, or matching a tradition that has the spell on its list, if you’re trying to cast a spell from the item. The relevant skills are Arcana for arcane, Nature for primal, Occultism for occult, Religion for divine, or any of the four for an item that has the magical trait and not a tradition trait. The GM determines the DC based on the item’s level (possibly adjusted depending on the item or situation).
It's DC 18 Nature or Religion Check (the level DC for 3rd-level), as the spell is available in the divine and primal spell list.
If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack modifier or spell DC and you don’t have proficiency in the relevant statistic, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus; if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus.
And with only Trained in either skill, the DC of the spell cast would be DC 15 (10 + 1 [level] + 4 [int])
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Assuming you're asking about how to identify a wand (or other magic item you've found) then the rules are:
Once you discover that an item, location, or ongoing effect is magical, you can spend 10 minutes to try to identify the particulars of its magic. If your attempt is interrupted, you must start over. The GM sets the DC for your check. Cursed magic or esoteric subjects usually have higher DCs or might even be impossible to identify using this activity alone. Heightening a spell doesn't increase the DC to identify it.
Critical Success You learn all the attributes of the magic, including its name (for an effect), what it does, any means of activating it (for an item or location), and whether it is cursed.
Success For an item or location, you get a sense of what it does and learn any means of activating it. For an ongoing effect (such as a spell with a duration), you learn the effect's name and what it does. You can't try again in hopes of getting a critical success.
Failure You fail to identify the magic and can't try again for 1 day.
Critical Failure You misidentify the magic as something else of the GM's choice.
And to your point, it doesn't establish guidelines for what DC to use.
I personally suggest using the Level-Based DC chart. Use the item level as the "level" in that chart and roll with it. It can really be that simple. For uncommon or rare wands/spells you can apply an modifier of +1-4 depending on how difficult you feel it should be.
As for the discrepancy between item level and spell level for DC. I would argue that it's because identifying the spell is for watching someone cast it or seeing it's effect while it's still ongoing. When you're looking at a wand you're trying to determine what it does without casting the spell. And you've also got to imagine that wands probably do not all look the same (and I mean that even wands of the same spell don't look the same). So while the book includes a description, I don't think that there is any requirement that all wands of a spell look a certain way.
I will say, I don't think you should involve tradition in figuring out what the DC is, because that just makes it very fiddly. Something PF2 has tried to remove.
From my perspective, have the GM decide whether they want to make identification based on the spell level or item level and just roll with it. One is a bit easier than the other.
Personally, I like that a 1st level character may struggle a little bit with the DC 18 check to identify the wand, while a 3rd level character that has become an expert in that knowledge skill is likely have a very easy time identifying that wand. If you use DC 15, the 1st level character has no problem and the 3rd level character is basically only failing on a very bad roll.
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I would go for the level-based DC chart too with the level being that of the item. Which is what you are actually trying to identify.
Now, if someone casts the spell from the wand, identifying the spell itself will be easier, since it is of a lower level.
Agreed, identify item = item level
Identify spell = spell level (which spell levels have a separate chart which is really just based on the character level at which you gain access to that level of spell)But again, the spell is easier to identify seeing it cast, which makes sense to me because of the difference in what you're doing.
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And to your point, it doesn't establish guidelines for what DC to use.
I personally suggest using the Level-Based DC chart. Use the item level as the "level" in that chart and roll with it. It can really be that simple. For uncommon or rare wands/spells you can apply an modifier of +1-4 depending on how difficult you feel it should be.
As for the discrepancy between item level and spell level for DC. I would argue that it's because identifying the spell is for watching someone cast it or seeing it's effect while it's still ongoing. When you're looking at a wand you're trying to determine what it does without casting the spell. And you've also got to imagine that wands probably do not all look the same (and I mean that even wands of the same spell don't look the same). So while the book includes a description, I don't think that there is any requirement that all wands of a spell look a certain way.
I agree with this. Just wanted to note a couple of things:
1. An often overlooked thing with Wands is that if the spell is on your spell list, it's just a single action to identify it with no check:
If you find a wand, you can try to deduce what spell is in it. If the spell is a common spell from your spell list or is a spell you know, you can use a single Recall Knowledge action and automatically succeed.
So if the spell in the wand is Arcane, Ezran doesn't have to roll anything.
2. On this:
I will say, I don't think you should involve tradition in figuring out what the DC is, because that just makes it very fiddly. Something PF2 has tried to remove.
This is pretty much what the Unified Theory skill feat does: lets you use Arcana for all tradition spells with no penalty. So if you're not going to apply that penalty in any case, probably best to warn players up front so they don't take a legendary tier feat that won't do anything.
I do think it's fine to give a clue to players though so they realize that they're using a harder skill, because if the description is just "a wand-like stick", there's really no way to know.
Personally I tend to just tell players the tradition(s) up front so they can decide if they want to use a harder skill or pass it off to someone else. Much in the same way if someone tries to recall knowledge with an inappropriate skill I'll caution them before resolving it.
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You have a great point, which I hadn't noticed previously, if the spell is in your list (or you have it as a spell known that's not normally on your list, which is more common with spontaneous casters) then it's not a check to identify it.
As for the the part about differing DCs, I simply meant that you shouldn't change the DC for a spell that appears on two lists. I have to admit, I didn't completely understand what Ed Reppert was saying on that bit, but I took it as using a skill related to a magic tradition on which the spell appeared. But if you have a spell list and the spell is on your list, you don't even need to make the check. And if you aren't a spell caster, you can identify the spell with the skill related to the magical traditions the spell appears for. And, for magical traditions the spell isn't related to, those skills are simply not relevant.
I wasn't suggesting that you let other skills identify at no penalty. But perhaps I misunderstood the OP's statement, in retrospect I think I did.
To be more clear (because I think I haven't been) I will provide an example:
Spell Ant Haul- 1st level spell on Arcane and Primal list (not on Divine or Occult).
If you see someone cast the spell, the DC to identify it is 15 (and normally you have to spend an action on your turn after seeing it cast). If you happen to have the spell prepared or in your repertoire, you simply identify it as its cast. You can only successfully use Arcana or Nature to identify the spell, both at DC 15.
If you find a wand of Ant Haul, it should be a 3rd level item. The DC to identify is 18. If you could cast Ant Haul because it's on your spell list you automatically identify it as a single action. If you don't have it on your spell list, or can't cast spells it's a DC18 Arcana or Nature check.
I simply meant that you shouldn't have a difference between Arcana or Nature, which is what it seemed like Ed Reppert meant the 1st time I read the post. In retrospect, I'm now unsure what they meant.
I didn't mean to imply you could use Religion or Occultism skills to identify Ant Haul, which I accidentally did based on my wording. They're simply not relevant skills for the activity (unless you have something like Unified Theory skill, which I've seen people homebrew non-Arcana equivalents to).
Edit: Reading Unified Magic description, it implies that you can use other magical tradition skills to do things like Identify Magic, but I don't actually see that anywhere else in the base rules I'm looking at. For example, Identify Magic doesn't mention that it's possible to do so.
Maybe I'm missing the location of this general rule that allows you to do this (use a different tradition at a higher DC). I simply thought it was not possible at all. Now I'm wondering if I missed a general generic rule, or if the rules text of Unified Theory is wrong with it's implication and is allowing you to do something that's normally not possible at all.
Found it.
Using the skill related to the appropriate tradition, as explained in the Magical Traditions and Skills sidebar, you can attempt to identify a magical item, location, or ongoing effect. In many cases, you can use a skill to attempt to Identify Magic of a tradition other than your own at a higher DC. The GM determines whether you can do this and what the DC is.
Unfortunately I didn't find any specific examples of what it think are or aren't appropriate cases to use another skill other than "in many cases".
As a GM, if I have players with knowledge in all 4 traditions my answer is going to be no, you can't do it at all (niche protection). If I don't have players with knowledge covering all traditions, then I'll allow it. And I'll figure out what I want the DC to be in the moment, but somewhere probably between +2 to +4.
Found it.
Using the skill related to the appropriate tradition, as explained in the Magical Traditions and Skills sidebar, you can attempt to identify a magical item, location, or ongoing effect. In many cases, you can use a skill to attempt to Identify Magic of a tradition other than your own at a higher DC. The GM determines whether you can do this and what the DC is.
To be honest, that feels like a typo rather than something intended.
If I am playing a Rogue and I am trained in Occultism, then I can identify a wand with an Occult spell on it at the standard DC.
So why, if I am playing a Witch with Arcane tradition spellcasting, but I am still trained in Occultism, I am for some unexplained reason penalized for identifying this same wand using Occultism.
What is going on here?
What is going on here?
Inquiring minds would truly like to know.
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Found it.
Using the skill related to the appropriate tradition, as explained in the Magical Traditions and Skills sidebar, you can attempt to identify a magical item, location, or ongoing effect. In many cases, you can use a skill to attempt to Identify Magic of a tradition other than your own at a higher DC. The GM determines whether you can do this and what the DC is.To be honest, that feels like a typo rather than something intended.
If I am playing a Rogue and I am trained in Occultism, then I can identify a wand with an Occult spell on it at the standard DC.
So why, if I am playing a Witch with Arcane tradition spellcasting, but I am still trained in Occultism, I am for some unexplained reason penalized for identifying this same wand using Occultism.
What is going on here?
I think it's poorly worded. I think the intention is you are trained in Occultism, you can identify Occult magic at the normal DC, and non-Occult magic at a higher DC (if the GM lets you do it at all). So in theory you could identify any kind of magic, but non-Occult magic is harder.
This also makes Unified Theory make sense because it talks about no longer taking that penalty, but if you could never use Arcana on non-Arcane magic, there was no penalty to reduce.
The idea that an Arcane Witch/Wizard/whatever would take a penalty to use the Occultism skill to identify Occult magic feels too bad to be true since knowing something about magic shouldn't make it harder than knowing nothing about magic.
The net result of doing it that way is that while it's harder to identify tradition specific stuff, it's at least possible if someone is good at one of the tradition skills. Unified Theory then resolves it by going "it's always Arcana".
To be more clear (because I think I haven't been) I will provide an example:
Spell Ant Haul- 1st level spell on Arcane and Primal list (not on Divine or Occult).If you see someone cast the spell, the DC to identify it is 15 (and normally you have to spend an action on your turn after seeing it cast). If you happen to have the spell prepared or in your repertoire, you simply identify it as its cast. You can only successfully use Arcana or Nature to identify the spell, both at DC 15.
If you find a wand of Ant Haul, it should be a 3rd level item. The DC to identify is 18. If you could cast Ant Haul because it's on your spell list you automatically identify it as a single action. If you don't have it on your spell list, or can't cast spells it's a DC18 Arcana or Nature check.
I simply meant that you shouldn't have a difference between Arcana or Nature, which is what it seemed like Ed Reppert meant the 1st time I read the post. In retrospect, I'm now unsure what they meant.
That lines up with my understanding.
I think it's poorly worded. I think the intention is you are trained in Occultism, you can identify Occult magic at the normal DC, and non-Occult magic at a higher DC (if the GM lets you do it at all). So in theory you could identify any kind of magic, but non-Occult magic is harder.
This also makes Unified Theory make sense because it talks about no longer taking that penalty, but if you could never use Arcana on non-Arcane magic, there was no penalty to reduce.
Agreed, I think this is simply poor wording.
I think what they were trying to say is (ignore casting tradition or lack thereof altogether) that you can identify magic not-related to tradition of the skill you want to use (for example using Arcana skill to identify Divine, Occult, or Nature magic) at a penalty. But that sentence is incredibly poorly worded because it:
1) Implies this sentence only matters for spell casters
2) Ignores their knowledge training that they might have for skill other than the one required by their magical tradition.
That's an obviously too bad too be true interpretation.
I will say though, I prefer to ignore that bit in Unified Theory and say that by default you can't use a skill to identify magic not related to that tradition, and depending on party composition I might allow it (at a penalty) so that people are penalized or feel required to sink all their skill advancements just to be able to identify magic.
You are, I believe, free to leave any rules aspect out of what's available at your table, or to modify any rule in any way you like at your table. Or in whatever world you're constructing, including versions of Golarion. You can also modify any of the published lore you like.
It seems to me though that when you say "I prefer to ignore that bit in Unified Theory" you are effectively saying "that feat does not exist in my setting/at my table". As I say, that's your right, but personally I wouldn't do it. I note that Unified Theory is a level 15 feat requiring Legendary status in Arcana. Not a lot of folks are going to get that far.