Mythic experience from Revenge of Runelords

[treecko]

Posting here, since I've heard this is the best way to get Paizo eyes on feedback. My group completed revenge of the runelords and found the mythic system quite poor.
For anyone considering running the AP, I would suggest just totally ripping out the system and reworking the AP to include some other sort of high power experience such as free archetype or custom feats. This review will include some light structural spoilers for the AP but nothing of story relevance.

Mythic Points

Mythic points can be gained in a variety of ways, such as completing mythic deeds, starting a session, following your calling, or slaying mythic opponents. Getting points at the start of a session can be narratively weird, with players able to access their mythic abilities at full power at times that could be during any point in an adventuring day depending on where the previous session left off. Otherwise, the system generally feels fine, you have mythic points and spend them for useful abilities and get them back from defeating tough encounters and challenges. However one area this breaks down is with daily mythic point recovery, accessible via calling or the feat Summon Mythic Power, which lets you get back a mythic point once per day. Since Revenge features multiple skill challenges that take place at the pace of one skill check per day, this feat absolutely breaks these scenarios, allowing for a reroll at mythic proficiency.

For adventuring days that featured a lot of combat with the occasional chance to fight mythic foes and gain back mythic points the system felt fine usually. However, it certainly was odd that the session ending in the middle of an adventuring day made a big difference on how mythic points could be spent, as getting +3 from starting a session is quite a lot of mythic points compared to 1 hero point from starting a session.

Mythic Challenges
These were truly awful due to how mythic proficiency works. For example, a mythic hazard lv 14 at lv 12 offers two options for disabling: a dc 38 thievery check with minimum legendary proficiency to attempt and a dc 41 arcana check. A lv 12 PC with capped stats, master proficiency, and a +2 item bonus has a +25 to their skill check letting them succeed on the arcana check on a 16 on the die, and cannot even attempt the thievery check due to the required legendary proficiency. Effectively this hazard is not interactable unless a PC spends mythic points or attempts to simply beat it to death instead (which is difficult). A party who simply rolls poorly with their mythic points could find themselves easily wiped or unable to win the encounter. Given this hazard design is repeated throughout the AP shows this is the intended experience for mythic deeds.

For a mythic chase example, dcs could be similarly high although usually less extreme and without proficiency locks that hazards might have. However an interesting quirky my party realized is that as mythic proficiency simply boosts your proficiency to mythic, it was best to simply select the lowest DC option that correspond to stats you had rather than bother with what your character was good at, because the DCs were too high to reasonably hit with your normal stats anyways.

Mythic Enemies
Mythic enemies often felt more like massive slogs than suitably epic foes. Mythic resilience often left them with few options to target via saving throws as a monster could easily have one strong save, one save with resilience, and a single weak save to target, or have two saves with resilience. Often they would also have the ability to use their mythic points to simply remove conditions as well making debuffs difficult to stick even if they did manage to land. They also had mythic resistance, which our group had no idea how to apply, as mythic resistance seems to state it does nothing against mythic characters, but mythic strike implies it's just permanent always on resistance that only mythic strike gets around. We ran it as permanent resistance for a small period of time before seeing how that interpretation was genuinely awful and gave up. Mythic enemies after a point also had extremely large HP bars with their ability to spend remaining mythic points and heal for half hp, which just made fights take longer especially as mythic characters did not have higher damage output for the most part outside specific destinies. We very thankfully did not have to deal much with creatures who forced rerolls on crits, which seems like an awful feature that makes fights drag on even longer as well.

Mythic Destinies
The destinies were horribly unbalanced. Our group tried timewrecked, avenging runelord, celestial, archfiend, and eternal legend. Timewrecked was picked by my chirurgeon alchemist, mostly because the destiny system did not seem to have any option that supported my character concept in any meaningful way, so I went for the destiny that at least boosted my speed and gave some defensive options. It was ok but did not vertically boost my power in any sort of mythic way. Avenging runelord was effectively useless and did nothing for our poor wizard, who suffered all game for daring to pick a caster in mythic and had a very hard time landing spells due to mythic resilience on a lot of monsters. Celestial offered a lot of appealing options that made our champion much more powerful in a wide variety of circumstances ranging from passive boosts to mythic point spends. Archfiend was terrible for our rogue and did absolutely nothing to boost his performance. After the rogue died, the player rolled a gunslinger with eternal legend, which offered which had strong options like Earth to Heavens strike which gave him a repeatable, resourceless option that was way better than anything a non-mythic character would have access to and vertically boosted his combat power by a decent amount. Eternal legend also included the incredibly powerful Fight Through Oblivion which made the gunslinger effectively unkillable to damage. Overall the destinies had vastly different performances and seemed to support martial power the most, with casters being left dead in a ditch for options and less traditional characters such as my alchemist being entirely unsupported.

[Teridax]

This tracks; I've also had a miserable experience with Mythic play and so it seems have many other tables, for many of the same reasons (in particular, mythic resilience on monsters). It really doesn't look like the variant was at all well adapted to 2e, and I don't know if its core issues will ever be addressed in the edition's lifetime.

[Theaitetos]

I'm in the same adventure path and can confirm.

Especially the hazards locking their disable behind legendary proficiency is totally mad: My level 14 Wizard with maxed Occultism couldn't even try to disable the hazard, but the Druid, who wasn't even trained in Intimidation, was able to succed with a lucky mythic reroll, despite his (non-mythic) Intimidation being more than 20 lower than my Occultism.

Not particular to this campaign, but Mythic Rules in general:

I also noticed painfully that mythic powers get weaker and weaker as you level up: Mythic spell proficiency is a gigantic boost when you're just Expert in Spell DCs (+6), so Mythic Magic: Calm was wrecking enemies early on, but once you hit Master it downgrades to +4 and at Legendary it's just a +2.

Additonally aggravating was that Mythic Casting is a spellshape that requires 1 additional action to apply to a spell, but Mythic Strike is in itself an action that includes the Strike. This additional action tax made me use Mythic Casting only once in the entire campaign and often left me with unused mythic points at the end of a session.

But most aggravating is Mythic Resilience that just turns your spells into useless garbage. Even using a spell at mythic proficiency doesn't change that.

I just don't see the point in a lot of mythic rules except making the game more annoying than fun.

[Tridus]

Thanks for sharing! Actual play feedback is super useful as my GM really wants to run this one in the future but a lot of players are not enthusiastic about the mythic end of it. So seeing some of the issues ahead of time will be handy to know what to adjust.

treecko wrote:

For a mythic chase example, dcs could be similarly high although usually less extreme and without proficiency locks that hazards might have. However an interesting quirky my party realized is that as mythic proficiency simply boosts your proficiency to mythic, it was best to simply select the lowest DC option that correspond to stats you had rather than bother with what your character was good at, because the DCs were too high to reasonably hit with your normal stats anyways.

Of all the things I dislike about PF2 Mythic (and it's a long list), Mythic Proficiency is the top of the list. It literally warps the game by undermining the entire skill proficiency system.

Sure, my character failed "Magic for Dummies" and doesn't know what a spellbook is, but I spend a point and suddenly my Arcana proficiency is exactly the same as the Wizard who has put major investment (both narratively and mechanically) into being very good at that. Hell, if I know I'm going to do that ahead of time (like casting a mythic ritual) and go buy an item to boost the skill, the only difference between us is INT scores.

This one really irks me because my current Oracle is actually Legendary Arcana, my second highest ability score is INT, and for character story reasons I've put a lot of effort into being a very good arcanist (despite being a Divine caster). Someone who did nothing with it all game spending a point and suddenly having a higher proficiency than I do is super frustrating. (Likewise that character is still untrained in Athletics at level 19, and it would undermine the tradeoffs I made on that and the downside of it if I can just spend a point and suddenly I'm smashing adamantine doors down.)

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when PF2 a system puts real effort into letting characters that invest training into being good at something be better at it than those who don't. Proficiency gates are also one of those things and mythic proficiency bypassing them entirely is BS, but also necessary because as you noted there's cases where the check is literally impossible without it.

And the inverse-scaling on it, of course: mythic proficiency is absolutely nuts at low level and turns into a +2 at high level if you're good at the thing in question.

Mythic resilience is why I refuse to play a caster in a mythic game, full stop. The fact that caster destinies largely suck and the best ones are all martial focused doesn't help either, but mythic resilience is such a middle finger to caster characters (while mythic resistance does nothing whatsoever to most martial characters) that it frankly feels like Paizo going "people keep saying PF2 favours martials over casters and we're sick of it so we're showing you what it actually looks like when we do that."

Teridax wrote:

This tracks; I've also had a miserable experience with Mythic play and so it seems have many other tables, for many of the same reasons (in particular, mythic resilience on monsters). It really doesn't look like the variant was at all well adapted to 2e, and I don't know if its core issues will ever be addressed in the edition's lifetime.

I doubt it will because the "core issues" are just that: at the core of it. Errata can't really fix fundamental issues like mythic proficiency.

They can just not use mythic resilience very often and they could add a calling/destiny that acknowledges Kineticist exists, but the underlying core system itself is bad and there's no fixing that without a rewrite that we're almost certainly not getting.

Maybe they just won't do more APs with it. I know it was pretty deflating to see this AP, get excited, and then see it was mythic. Stripping all that out is a lot of extra work to ask a GM when running an AP is meant to help save time.

[Perpdepog]

Tridus wrote:

Of all the things I dislike about PF2 Mythic (and it's a long list), Mythic Proficiency is the top of the list. It literally warps the game by undermining the entire skill proficiency system.

Sure, my character failed "Magic for Dummies" and doesn't know what a spellbook is, but I spend a point and suddenly my Arcana proficiency is exactly the same as the Wizard who has put major investment (both narratively and mechanically) into being very good at that. Hell, if I know I'm going to do that ahead of time (like casting a mythic ritual) and go buy an item to boost the skill, the only difference between us is INT scores.

This one really irks me because my current Oracle is actually Legendary Arcana, my second highest ability score is INT, and for character story reasons I've put a lot of effort into being a very good arcanist (despite being a Divine caster). Someone who did nothing with it all game spending a point and suddenly having a higher proficiency than I do is super frustrating. (Likewise that character is still untrained in Athletics at level 19, and it would undermine the tradeoffs I made on that and the downside of it if I can just spend a point and suddenly I'm smashing adamantine doors down.)

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when PF2 a system puts real effort into letting characters that invest training into being good at something be better at it than those who don't. Proficiency gates are also one of those things and mythic proficiency bypassing them entirely is BS, but also necessary because as you noted there's cases where the check is literally impossible without it.

And the inverse-scaling on it, of course: mythic proficiency is absolutely nuts at low level and turns into a +2 at high level if you're good at the thing in question.

While I wasn't that concerned about it at first, and still haven't run mythic, so I have zero first-hand experience, the more I've thought about it and the more posts from folks who have played mythic I've seen, the more I'm also convinced this is a pretty big, un-fun problem.

It makes me wonder if Mythic should have been treated like a bonus rather than a level of proficiency, or that perhaps mythic callings, and later destinies, were more explicit in the lists of actions and skills they let you be mythic with, or something like that.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, I'll eventually run this in a few years (Return of the Runelords in a 2E conversion finally got off the ground this year, so I am very much looking forward to this). I hope some good soul has done the work to de-mythic-fy this AP by then and put up a conversion document, which keeps the exciting aspects of it, but leaves this system completely out. Everything I've heard about it makes me not want to use it.

[Deriven Firelion]

PF2 doesn't seem designed for a mythic system. We did it as well. It has too many competing actions that aren't good.

The three action system and short fights create a very competitive system for actions. You have three actions a round. Those actions must have impact. You really don't want to waste feats or time using actions that don't have a strong impact.

The mythic system is built around adding mythic actions. Yet these actions often aren't competitive with non-mythic actions. So my group tended to take anything that worked passively with their other abilities like rerolls and such.

The limited number of mythic points also made this whole system of competing resources as well. Mythic points, focus points, and class abilities all with an action cost. This further fueled the competition for use.

PF2 is action throttled. It greatly improves the balance, but seriously limits what you can do with the system like adding in a mythic set of rules.

I do like using the mythic creature rules against non-mythic characters. They work far better for making a powerful, unique monster seem tougher against regular PCs than for use against mythic PCs.

[OrochiFuror]

I'm level 16 in RotR right now. Playing a fey summoner who summons a lot and uses mythic allies. I also have the only caster destiny, Wildspell.

Short list of issues.
Dex Eidolon sucks.
Fey Eidolon magic is surprisingly bad.
Summons are meh.

Mythic issues.
Mythic allies gives a +2 to everything a summon does, makes them feel so so instead of bad, would be great as a general feat for casters and instead increase the level of what you summon by one.
Wildspell has very little going for it.
Spellsurge is very hit or miss. Ward is the only good option but doesn't come up enough to remember it.
Invigorating surge. Only works for adjacent targets, so your either giving temp hp to back liners who shouldn't be getting hit or your WAY to close to combat to give it to a martial. Your level temp HP isn't even a lot of health, our Exemplar can freely out heal that with No Scar But This.

The idea of "spend a mythic point to do something amazing" is at odds with the rules that cost mythic points to do often really bad abilities.

Then you have stuff like "call from deaths door", prevent someone from going down and get health, that's amazing.
I don't even remember the other level 1-6 mythic feats I have, I've never used them.

Everything feels all over the place balance wise.
The monk and exemplar tend to beat everything down while I and the rotation of other casters/commander we have gone through tended to just do stuff sometimes. The witch and commander did alright because of very specific builds, not because spells did much.

Non mythic note about the AP. As a summoner it feels a bit annoying how many tiny rooms there are in the middle section of the adventure filled with AOE flinging caster enemies.

Aside from key abilities and destinies I think I would prefer FA overall.

[Theaitetos]

OrochiFuror wrote:

I'm level 16 in RotR right now. Playing a fey summoner who summons a lot and uses mythic allies. I also have the only caster destiny, Wildspell.

The mythic destinies are known to be hit or miss – mostly miss – and don't work well with a lot of classes (Kineticist, Alchemist, casters, …). However, the "half-mythic" Mortal Herald is extremely strong, even without its mythic parts.

Wildspell in particular is build around Spellsurge, which is garbage. If you want to make it less garbage, ask your GM to reduce the action cost to 1 and increase the emanation to at least 30 ft, probably with a "Heightened +1: +10ft" or so. Otherwise regard Wildspell as a thing that gives you the great Mythic Heightening (14) and the overpowered Imbue Spell (16)*, then take normal mythic feats like Summon Mythic Power.

* Imbue Spell can be used to give everyone Tailwind or other caster-only buff spells (even from wands); then give one ally, e.g. your eidolon, a powered-up spell to use in an encounter like a 6-actions Inner Radiance Torrent for 1 action.

[Tridus]

OrochiFuror wrote:

I'm level 16 in RotR right now. Playing a fey summoner who summons a lot and uses mythic allies. I also have the only caster destiny, Wildspell.

Short list of issues.
Dex Eidolon sucks.
Fey Eidolon magic is surprisingly bad.
Summons are meh.

Yeah, those things are all true and they're all Summoner or core PF2 things. STR based Eidolons feel a lot better especially when they do things like trip enemies.

There are specific summons that are good, usually for utility/buffs/spell effeciency. Summons in PF2 are almost never the best choice for direct offense.

Quote:

Spellsurge is very hit or miss. Ward is the only good option but doesn't come up enough to remember it.
Invigorating surge. Only works for adjacent targets, so your either giving temp hp to back liners who shouldn't be getting hit or your WAY to close to combat to give it to a martial. Your level temp HP isn't even a lot of health, our Exemplar can freely out heal that with No Scar But This.

The single biggest thing I hate about Spellsurge is that the effects apply to everyone. Putting up a defensive one? Cool, any enemy that gets near you also gets it. Putting up a debuff one? Too bad for your allies, I guess. It's incredibly lame as a mythic ability. I don't think it'd be very good even if it was just a regular focus spell.

Quote:

The idea of "spend a mythic point to do something amazing" is at odds with the rules that cost mythic points to do often really bad abilities.

Yeah. Some callings/destinies have very little worth spending points on, so it's the "use Rewrite Fate" point.

Mythic balance is an absolute mess.

Quote:

Non mythic note about the AP. As a summoner it feels a bit annoying how many tiny rooms there are in the middle section of the adventure filled with AOE flinging caster enemies.

Very common issue in Paizo adventures. Its one of the things that worries me about Necromancer (though it was eve worse in the playtest).