I know Psychics are not a Sorcerers, but the essence of their way to spellcascting is mysterious and incomprehensible (probably like any magic in general for us, people who are in the real world), but at the same time it requires the user to be a rational and conscious being, capable of studying and explore his mind. I understand that the narrative component of the class and its way of casting spells is built specifically in such a way that it can be decided with the GM or chosen as you like. But I would still like to have some confirmation or refutation of my arguments.
My thoughts on this are that the description of the class, its consciousness and subconscious, allows for both scenarios of how you can get psychic spellcasting:
- - You weren't born with any special abilities. You mastered this method of spellcasting through diligent study and training, which allowed you to develop your brain and mind. Gathered Lore and Precise Discipline are most suitable for this situation, although other subconsciouses can be chosen as well.
- - You were born with this ability, and you developed it over time (like a sorcerer). Emotional Acceptance and Wandering Reverie are more appropriate for this situation, although other subconsciouses can be chosen as well.
But I'm not here just to tell you how I see this situation. I'm interested in how this question will be answered:
- 1) Firstly by Paizo
- 2) Secondly by those others who know and understand the lore and universe of Pathfinder
So tell me: can psychic ability be learned, or are people born with it, or both?
The Psychic Archetype gives you the Conscious Mind abilities of a Psychic. But it is the Subconscious Mind feature that lets you use a different narrative description of spellcasting.
So take that as you will. And remember The First Rule.
Either or neither. I think a "default" psychic, for lack of a better word, is someone that was exposed to something highly traumatic or somehow got their mind's awakened by some method which unlocked their psychic powers. I don't think you can be born with it, though I wouldn't say its impossible either, and I guess someone could teach you to open your mind as well. Like with every class, its up to each player to decide how.
I tend to think of Psychics as either trained or innate. I seem to recall that Psychics are more common in some places in the world, which barring a specific external cause (like living in a country with lots of friendly dragons for certain sorcerers) seems to imply that it can be taught. On the other hand, it seems likely that it's possible to be born with sufficient talent that you can kind of figure it out on your own (whether this technically counts as 'learning' it by virtue of talent or not is up to the reader).
But also more importantly, whatever works for the setting/story you're interested in telling. Since it does seem like it could go both ways and there doesn't seem to be any hard lore riding on it behaving a certain way.
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The Psychic Archetype gives you the Conscious Mind abilities of a Psychic. But it is the Subconscious Mind feature that lets you use a different narrative description of spellcasting.
So take that as you will. And remember The First Rule.
This is the key to the Psychic class.
Whatever the cause of getting psychic powers, if the PC does not make developing them their highest priority, ie using the Psychic class, then they have the Psychic archetype only and thus no Subconscious Mind.
So tell me: can psychic ability be learned, or are people born with it, or both?I tend to think of Psychics as either trained or innate.I think it's too narrow even. Psychic abilities should be able to appear because of some accident or outside magic, just like sorcerer's. For example, one my char became a Psychic because of a strange mind-altering magic/technology from Numeria. No, you can't say to me this contradicts the lore :)
You're absolutely right. I was too tired to draw a better distinction, but I had meant to allow for accidental acquisition just like kinetic gates. I don't remember if I was imagining that was included under either trained or innate, but on waking review it certainly ought to have been specified separately.
As far as I can see from current reports, assuming we discard The First Rule, becoming a psychic can be achieved in two ways:
- 1) Without innate abilities or talent, solely through training and education
- 2) By developing existing innate(gained through some incident) abilities
Maybe I'm overthinking, but I'm genuinely curious. I'm just genuinely interested in how Paizo and the world of Golarion answer this question, and what opportunities there are for becoming a Psychic.
So tell me: can psychic ability be learned, or are people born with it, or both?I tend to think of Psychics as either trained or innate.I think it's too narrow even. Psychic abilities should be able to appear because of some accident or outside magic, just like sorcerer's. For example, one my char became a Psychic because of a strange mind-altering magic/technology from Numeria. No, you can't say to me this contradicts the lore :)
This case does not contradict my personal view on how one can become psychic: either through study or through the development of innate (acquired) abilities
This case does not contradict my personal view on how one can become psychic: either through study or through the development of innate (acquired) abilities
That may be because your view on it is so vague and encompassing that it includes every practical possibility.
"Survived being attacked by a Blood Painter as a child and the lingering trauma causes the character to succumb to dissociative fugue states especially when under stress." (Subconscious Mind: Wandering Reverie) --- falls under 'development of acquired abilities'.
"Found an ancient tome of mental exercises originally intended to assist in traversing the Ethereal plane. Studying it the wrong way has allowed the character to exert their thoughts into tangible forces around them." --- falls under 'gained through study'.
"Granted as a boon for service to a minor deity." --- 'development of acquired abilities'.
"I was born with it." --- 'development of innate abilities'.
"My family paid a great deal of money to put me through Psychic school." --- 'gained through study'.
Which is not to say that this is a bad thing. It just becomes a bit moot as a distinction. Basically it comes down to "You can become a Psychic by whatever means your imagination can come up with."
This case does not contradict my personal view on how one can become psychic: either through study or through the development of innate (acquired) abilitiesThat may be because your view on it is so vague and encompassing that it includes every practical possibility.
"Survived being attacked by a Blood Painter as a child and the lingering trauma causes the character to succumb to dissociative fugue states especially when under stress." (Subconscious Mind: Wandering Reverie) --- falls under 'development of acquired abilities'.
"Found an ancient tome of mental exercises originally intended to assist in traversing the Ethereal plane. Studying it the wrong way has allowed the character to exert their thoughts into tangible forces around them." --- falls under 'gained through study'.
"Granted as a boon for service to a minor deity." --- 'development of acquired abilities'.
"I was born with it." --- 'development of innate abilities'.
"My family paid a great deal of money to put me through Psychic school." --- 'gained through study'.
Which is not to say that this is a bad thing. It just becomes a bit moot as a distinction. Basically it comes down to "You can become a Psychic by whatever means your imagination can come up with."
Yes, I understand what you're saying. My view on this is so broad and vague because Paizo and the Golarion lore don't give me a concrete answer. That's actually why I created this thread: I'm curious to know a concrete answer to this question, assuming one exists.
[s]As far as I can see from current reports, assuming we discard The First Rule, becoming a psychic can be achieved in two ways:
- 1) Without innate abilities or talent, solely through training and education
- 2) By developing existing innate(gained through some incident) abilities
Maybe I'm overthinking, but I'm genuinely curious. I'm just genuinely interested in how Paizo and the world of Golarion answer this question, and what opportunities there are for becoming a Psychic.
Some of the subtler language in the Subconscious Minds seems to imply to me that it's an inherent ability, not something learned.
So much of the language seems to focus on talking about the subconscious mind as a way you've honed "Your abilities," and you'd think there would be some discussion about development as well.
Determine intended outcome. Align thoughts. Identify and resolve distractions. Manifest. Intentional focus is the key to unleashing your abilities, whether that's because your power naturally tends to precise, discrete effects, or because you've adopted strict discipline to ensure your mind can change the world only when you intend it to.Emphasis bold. Note how a subconscious mind, which would make a ton of sense to be something you develop through training and precision, still talks about your abilities as if they're innate.
Many psychics are self-taught, frantically improvising how to best control their abilities before their power overwhelms them. Not you. Tutored by a mentor or classically trained at a facility for psychic development, you've learned techniques and teachings for best harnessing the mind, cataloging each expression of psychic power with a specific teaching, anecdote, or phrase.Again, emphasis bold. In the subconscious mind where you literally have a teacher, it still talks in the context as if you...
Your conclusion isn't unconvincing, it just doesn't contradict what's said above.
Some of the subtler language in the Subconscious Minds seems to imply to me that it's an inherent ability, not something learned.
But all sentient beings have a subconscious. Therefore, anyone can potentially become a psychic, but there are different paths to it:
- - study/training, if you weren't born with such abilities
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- developing innate abilities -
- an experienced incident
Furthermore, the class description itself says: "You have awoken to the might of psychic magic." But how exactly this psychic magic was awakened in your mind seems to be very different, regardless of whether you were born with the ability or not.
P.S. I saw your updated message. We were thinking exactly the same thing XD
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I can't give Paizo's official take on this, but my own is that Psychics sit at the juncture between potential and training: everyone with a mind has varying levels of innate psychic potential, but it's by harnessing this potential that one becomes a Psychic. I do think there's overlap with Sorcerers, in that some individuals are born with naturally strong psychic abilities (contemplatives are an entire ancestry of such individuals!), and this can be particularly true for Charisma-based subconscious minds that are more about embracing those abilities than keeping them under strict control. Intelligence-based subconscious minds, however, do tend to be involve some kind of more formal training process.
While this doesn't necessarily give Paizo's own take, I think there's also examples to draw from fiction that do correlate to the Psychic as implemented in Pathfinder: Tetsuo Shima from Akira, for instance, is a psychic with incredible innate potential who awakens his powers, and then continues to develop them. Razputin from Psychonauts is born with psychic powers he can't quite control, and he goes to an academy to learn how to use specific psychic techniques. Carrie White from Carrie doesn't really get any training, as her innate powers are largely repressed, but instead she awakens them through her negative emotions. The common thread here I think is that psychics tend to be born with powers that awaken at some point, and those powers develop rapidly over time through practice.
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I think it's the nature of Occult magic to be a bit more ambiguous in its origins, and the Psychic feels the most centrally occult of all the classes. Are Psychics born? Cultivated? Created? Some combination of the above? Yes. No. Maybe so. The nature of being so occult in its origins is that we do not and can not know with certainty.
I've headcannoned it as psychics that use Int as their KAS develop it via intentional study and training, and psychics that use Cha had it spontaneously develop due to innate genetics or environmental factors.
As others have said though, it's trivially easy to justify any combination you want, there's not a lore reason for or against that I'm aware of.
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It's very interesting to hear your thoughts. Thank you all very much.