Doubling up Main feats with Free Archetype


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Reading through Ravingdork's thread got me thinking...

If you could, and it were legal, would you ever consider taking your own class as an archetype to become a paragon of that class? Like a fighter taking fighter as an archetype to in essence double down on fighter feats?

Additionally, do you think that it can be abused? Since your archetype feats would still be limited to half of the lvl of your class, you couldn't double up on high (11+) lvl feats. I always wondered why it wasn't legal, seems a bit weaker than many other options, but I suppose it goes against the concept of archetyping.

I can see some possible problems, but lets assume you have to stick with your core 'subclass', so a giant barbarian couldn't archetype into a second instinct, a psychic couldn't take a second conscious mind.

Thoughts?


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One of the problems with this is that the multiclass feat's level is well behind your main class feat's level.

You're not getting two level 10 fighter feats, you are getting a level 10 fighter feat and a level 4 fighter feat.

You'd be better off taking a fighting style archetype.

For instatance, the Mauler Archetype has the following Fighter feats.

Slam Down F4/M4
Vicious Swing F1/M4
Crashing Slam F10/M12
Brutal Finish F12/M14

If you take Mauler you can have those feats at levels 4, 6, 12 and 14, respectively. With Fighter Dedication, you get them at 8, 4, 20 and never, respectively.

TLDR; No, not worth it.


I can't see this making sense in a lot of cases, but Oracle could probably make use of it to stack up low level feats. There's a lot of good low level Cursebound abilities, and if you want to pick up a Domain the first feat is also low level. The low level feat list is quite strong and picking more of them can make sense for versatility of options. (High level tends to have a clear standout at every level so you're not missing out there.)

Wouldn't be the strongest thing you can do, but having the option to use all of Nudge the Scales/Whispers of Weakness/Foretell Harm/Oracular Warning/Knowledge of Shapes certainly gives you a plethora of single action/free action options!


Kelseus wrote:

One of the problems with this is that the multiclass feat's level is well behind your main class feat's level.

You're not getting two level 10 fighter feats, you are getting a level 10 fighter feat and a level 4 fighter feat.

You'd be better off taking a fighting style archetype.

For instatance, the Mauler Archetype has the following Fighter feats.

Slam Down F4/M4
Vicious Swing F1/M4
Crashing Slam F10/M12
Brutal Finish F12/M14

If you take Mauler you can have those feats at levels 4, 6, 12 and 14, respectively. With Fighter Dedication, you get them at 8, 4, 20 and never, respectively.

TLDR; No, not worth it.

This is only true for the fighter though. When I played an alchemist I dreamed about doubling down on alchemist feats even if at half level like from an archetype. There's other classes like guardian or monk which would benefit greatly from this as well.


The Archetype rules say:

Player Core, Chapter 3 Classes, Archetypes, page 215 wrote:

Multiclass Dedications

All archetypes in this book have the multiclass trait. These allow you to diversify your training into another class’s specialties. You can’t select a multiclass archetype’s dedication feat if you are already a member of that class.

I presume that this is to prevent some classes from doubling up on their class abilities. For example, a 4th-level rogue with Rogue Multiclass Dedication could take 4th-level archetype feat Sneak Attacker for 1d4 sneak attack damage in addition to the rogue's 1d6 sneak attack damage.


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Sneak Attack is available through other Archetypes though. I'm unsure if Paizo capped this for balance or because it's simply silly having multiclass be monoclass. Or maybe to avoid complications like having two Sorcerer Repertoires. I doubt it's for balance since so many classes have Dedications that mirror them: Fighter w/ the Combat Styles, Monks with Martial Artists or Wrestlers, casters w/ other casters using same casting stat, et al. As mentioned earlier, it's more often better taking those other Archetypes anyway because they don't double a feat's level.

And I wish I could recall where the rules said this explicitly, but doesn't Sneak Attack not stack? So you have to choose your best source.


I think they made it because of future proofing, because they didn't know if at some point they would release a class that, if it had the choice to gain feats from its own class using free archetype, it could create a balance problem. Also, variant rules are usually half-baked, so its entirely possible nobody even thought about someone wanting to take their own class's archetype. I think it wouldn't be much of a problem (mostly because the class dedication is going to effectively be a dead feat that's going to work more like a tax for the rest of the feats) and I even think some classes like kineticist, which don't work that well with the rest of the system, could benefit greatly from this, specially if they have multiple elements.


Monks and I think rangers would love this, fill up on loads of focus spells they'd otherwise need to pick between. I think commanders would also be big fans, though it's been a minute since I saw their feats.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I disagree that monks would "love this." Frankly, monks are better off with the martial artist or wrestler archetype than the multi-classed monk archetype if they want to take a bunch of focus spell feats or "double-dip" on unarmed combat feats (or the archer archetype for a monastic archer concept).


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Yea I’m struggling to come up with examples where this is actually a good idea. About the best I can think of is exemplar getting another ikon, which… is that really what you need? You already have three, surely there’s some better dedication.

Maybe alchemist would like the additional alchemicals? (if that even stacks).


Two Champion reactions, assuming you can pick a different cause. Having both the selfless and selfish reactions would be amazing, and undead champions can get both shield of the spirit and touch of void (living ones can already get lay on hands via blessed one). You can also get all three blessings.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
ScooterScoots wrote:
Yea I’m struggling to come up with examples where this is actually a good idea. About the best I can think of is exemplar getting another ikon, which… is that really what you need? You already have three, surely there’s some better dedication.

Other than not having to wait until 8th level for Additional Ikon, an exemplar (like pretty much any other class) doesn't really gain anything from taking their own multi-classed archetype.

ScooterScoots wrote:
Maybe alchemist would like the additional alchemicals? (if that even stacks).

Even then, you're probably better taking a different archetype that gives additional specialized alchemy benefits you want to focus on: Firework Technician, Herbalist, Poisoner, or Wandering Chef.


Kineticist would probably love getting access to more of its low level abilities and an additional element.

Witch has a bunch of feats it wants early and it is always starved for. Cauldron, Lesson, Cackle, Familiar, Metamagic Feats for fun. Plus getting access to a spell list.

Commander definitely loves it. Officer's Medical Training, Deceptive Tactics, Guiding Shot, Set Up Strike, Tactical Assessment, and on and on.

I dont think it's broken. It just allows for more flexibility with your class fantasy. This is something I have thought about and wished for as well.


I think the closest I've done was my Ruby Phoenix unarmed Swashbucker who took Martial Artist for Stumbling Style/Feint (stumbling Feint is unusable without Flurry of Blows) then grabs Monk at 9th with Multitalented to pick up Flurry of Blows at 10th. This worked better than just taking the Monk Archetype since you couldn't get Stumbling Feint with Monk Archetype feats until 12th level, but Martial Artist could get it at 8th despite never being able to make use of the feat.

But that's "taking two archetypes that overlap for layering reasons." Of course this character no longer works since I don't think the PC2 version of Martial Artist can even get Stumbling Feint, and Flurry of Blows is no longer full strength from archetyping.


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I use a variation of this for Free Archetype games in the edge cases where a player doesn't want their character to have an Archetype, or the Archetype that they choose doesn't have enough low level feats to fill all of the slots. I don't make or allow them to take the dedication feat, so there is no wonkiness with skill proficiencies given in the dedication feat, getting a second subclass, or getting archetype-only feats like Rogue: Sneak Attacker. They simply fill their Free Archetype slots with class feats up to half their character level.

And yeah, it is probably a bit weaker than taking an actual Archetype - not something that is going to lead to exploits.


Castilliano wrote:
And I wish I could recall where the rules said this explicitly, but doesn't Sneak Attack not stack? So you have to choose your best source.

I'm thinking the rules are pretty clear in the opposite direction. Sneak Attack is just the name for a particular class's precision damage.

Damage Type: Precision wrote:
When you hit with an ability that grants you precision damage, you increase the attack's listed damage, using the same damage type, rather than tracking a separate pool of damage.

It doesn't fall into the categories of things that don't stack (typed bonus values and redundant conditions primarily). It simply adds to the weapon's damage amount. Same as Barbarian Rage damage.

As far as I have ever heard ruled, different types of precision damage all do stack. You can have a Ranger with Hunter's Edge: Precision, Rogue Archetype: Sneak Attacker, and using a weapon with the Backstabber weapon trait all stacking their precision damage. (Rogues would probably be very sad if Sneak Attack didn't stack with a weapon with the Backstabber trait).

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