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More accurately:
On the Hunt Reaction providing Quickened for a Step, Stride, or action with the Relentless trait.
Vs.
Reactive Strike providing a MAPless Strike, possibly disrupting.
Reactive Strike stands out as the baseline martial Reaction. Most martial classes can take it or a variant. A Fighter can build around it, yet still benefits when they don't, still benefits if enemies have to factor it into their tactics to avoid it.
On the Hunt, as key as it seems to be for a Slayer, provides far less. Too far less IMO. It's like banking your Reaction to spend as an action later; a novel mechanical concept I adored at first glance. Except it doesn't pay off dividends; there's nothing comparable to a MAPless Strike to be gained when arguably it should provide something even better.
Let's look at the first Relentless feats:
Bloodscent is a fancy Recall Knowledge check. It's cool, but more of a 3rd action you likely could fit in already. If you activate On the Hunt several times, you'll run dry on opponents (either through success or failure DCs). (Also unsure how relentless one is being by sifting through one's memories.)
Sudden Pounce sounds cool, leap and attack someone, right? Except for two actions anybody can already do this, and choose a better attack action. Being a Flourish, you're cutting yourself off from many better attacks as a followup. This means the feat relies on being Relentless/using that Quickened action to be worthwhile, even relies on it to earn being a Flourish, and relies on your PC wanting to actually move. It's simply a wash if you're Hasted and most players should've built a better bread-n'-butter attack routine than this provides.
Skipping to 6th where there's a solid offensive Relentless feat, one I'd likely build my first Slayer around (despite the near useless 2nd level prereq); Shifting Combination. It's comparable to Double Slice, but you can squeeze out a touch more damage, even get some utility with well-timed free hands. It's worth its two actions w/o Relentless, so with On the Hunt, it must be...about the same? Sure, if you're out of position you'll want to move, but then that Quickened action is as useful as a Step or Stride, no Relentless necessary. The Slayer could as easily have taken Dual-Weapon Warrior at 2nd, skipping the prereq, starting earlier, and maybe using a free-hand weapon to more consistently access whatever they'd wanted to do with their free hand anyway. Yes, they'd want Doubling Rings, but that opens up different damage types or crit specs via swapping weapons. So yeah, even with that build I'd prefer Reactive Strike.
And that's the crux; if you struck someone down, triggering On the Hunt, it seems simple to imagine many situations when you had Reactive Strike so wouldn't, and few if any situations where the opposite was true, withholding a Reactive Strike in favor of an On the Hunt Reaction (even if practically guaranteed). Heck, if I had Shield Block, I'd often prefer saving that Reaction over gaining a Relentless extra action. And the common exception would be when I was out of position so needed the movement, not when I had some juicy Relentless action.
With how fickle On the Hunt can be, I'd already have advised new players to ignore the Relentless trait when measuring feats. Upon further examination, it feels even worse than that.
I think that's important to note that slayer's at 7th level gain an extra reaction they can use for slayer's reactions from feats or class features, so from 8th level onwards they can poach Reactive Strike like a regular martial would, except 4 levels later.
But besides that, I agree On the Hunt is taking away too much power budget of the class into something that's ultimately not that good. It seems good at first glance and there's interesting combos that can be made with it, but good ol' Reactive Strike is simply better and arguably easier to use as well.
I expressed in other thread that I don't feel like On the Hunt fits the slayer honestly. There's more than a few reasons of why I think that, but certainly everything said in this post could be added to those reasons as well.
Honestly my real use of On the Hunt up to now is primary to Stride or Strike. Even able to use it with Rentless I had no use to it in a situation where I won't wanto to Stride or Strike making its usage with Rentless a minor use.
That said I think that AoO RS is just more consistant and stronger than On the Hunt. Also On the Hunt probably will become disabled when I reach a level where the usage o Haste spell becomes cheaper, something that simply doesn't happen with AoO RS.
Yep, Yuri. At best, Relentless seems an undercooked mechanic on an inferior Reaction. IMO Relentless has to deliver something as valuable and regular as Reactive Strike's MAPless Strike and bestow actions that can outcompete the old standby Haste. I'm aware there's risk of shenanigans slipping in, but barely. The only current one I see comes via a Relentless spell, but those are so tepid for the levels involved that an extra action for casting remains below the power curve...on a warrior that also caps at Expert or must invest a ton for late-game Master.
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I made a thread this but 'the old standby Haste' ends up really being another point of frustration because it makes the power of the ability kind of scale against your access to quickened. It'd be like if a fighter's bonus to hit was a status bonus so you couldn't benefit from courageous anthem.
... That said, one thing I will say about OTH compared to Reactive Strike is that the former seems a lot easier to trigger. Enemies dying is something you expect to happen, while reactive strike is a much more sometimes move... though how much On The Hunt you can get depends a lot on encounter design which is also a little awkward (though I guess the same could be said of Reactive Strike). Still, from my limited testing it's not that rare to see OTH proc almost every round if there's a good mix of of enemies, which boosts it a bit here (nonwithstanding my initial complaint about nonstacking conditions).
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Enemy numbers that trigger OTH would seem to trigger RS too, and earlier. Plus RS extracts a toll when the backrow begins pissing off enemies who try to Stride to them or when an enemy, i.e. a melee flyer or Quickling, tries to hit and run. And that's not counting Reach weapons and party tactics to multiply instances, i.e. Trip or kiting. That said, I'm on the fence re: how often OTH triggers (partly since it triggers when your allies are falling and you really need help!). The payoff's where most of my concern lies; let the Slayer show some relentlessness, and right from level 1 as part of the chassis, perhaps with Sudden Pounce as a given (though since I'd never take it, maybe a better version other martials envy...like they do RS).
Enemy numbers that trigger OTH would seem to trigger RS too, and earlier. Plus RS extracts a toll when the backrow begins pissing off enemies who try to Stride to them or when an enemy, i.e. a melee flyer or Quickling, tries to hit and run. And that's not counting Reach weapons and party tactics to multiply instances, i.e. Trip or kiting. That said, I'm on the fence re: how often OTH triggers (partly since it triggers when your allies are falling and you really need help!). The payoff's where most of my concern lies; let the Slayer show some relentlessness, and right from level 1 as part of the chassis, perhaps with Sudden Pounce as a given (though since I'd never take it, maybe a better version other martials envy...like they do RS).
In practice, OTH has been triggering quite a bit. But it still doesn't come close to RS, especially when the party pressures enemies to move/Stand, etc.
The biggest problem with OTH that I've seen in practice during my playtest is that it doesn't work well against bosses, even if they are your quarry, and if they aren't your quarry, it's simply impossible to trigger. This is a very different situation from RS, since using Trip against a boss becomes a basic tactic when someone in the party have RS.
In the end, there isn't a very significant difference between them, but OTH depends on the game master much more than RS, which is easier for players to control.
Enemy numbers that trigger OTH would seem to trigger RS too, and earlier.
I mean, RS is more about enemy behavior. If you're fighting a bunch of melee-focused combatants who don't need to worry about striding much it can sometimes be a pain to get RS. It's not super rare to have entire fights where you might never get an AOO off. That's just the nature of the beast.
That said it's clearly a much better reaction in general for the reasons stated, just figured it was worth mentioning that OTH does have a little bit going for it.
Would it be too much if quickened from OTH actions didn't count, or didn't increase MAP? I dream of shifting combination into another two action attack for some notably reliable burst damage.
One thing thing that just occurred to me is how maybe Relentless could operate like 3.X/PF1 Cleave, (Barbarian 6th in PF2, same level for them as RS). Of course only when you're doing the dropping, but cleaving an extra enemy feels like a Slayer vibe to me. Start them with that.
Another thing I've been pondering is having OTH reward immediately during the Reaction itself (or maybe even as a free action if just cashing in on a Step, maybe even Stride if toward a new enemy/downed ally). That'd avoid some of the overlap with Haste and feel a bit more like the PCs acting relentless (even if the current Relentless feats would have to be overhauled). Feels odd preferring to space out the party's kills! That's hardly relentless.
Sudden Pounce, for example could provide the Leap part (which seems kinda cool IMO, somebody dies and the Slayer bounds in response). Bloodscent would work as an immediate RK check (probably free action). With a solid base option and a mix of free actions & Reactions via feats, a Slayer could have a dynamic playstyle w/o outshining the damage of "Fighter w/ Reach weapon". The options could also come off a list instead, options for one's Relentless arsenal chosen at specific levels. This could include upgrading a minor Relentless Reaction to a Free Action (so it doesn't compete with superior Relentless Reactions.
I doubt there's room for the current "spend this Reaction for a Quickened action next round" alongside MAP & Haste unless both those are accounted for (at whatever level's appropriate).
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The thing with Reactive Strike is that, even when your foes aren't triggering it, it still serves the purpose of keeping enemies in line because you are making them reconsider moving away from you because they know they risk getting smacked in the face if they do it. This can sometimes force enemies to change their strategy entirely, or focus on someone they don't want to focus because their target is away from them.
This doesn't happen with On the Hunt.
Oh, I had missed that it was a Long Jump, making that 15' easier to reach and adding a Stride inside the action. Cool. It's more useful throughout close combat once you get to jumping 15' (which might be right quick if you enjoy leaping). Still iffy on whether your Slayer would have use for it, yet worthwhile for one's tool set. Hmm.
Sudden Pounce sounds cool, leap and attack someone, right? Except for two actions anybody can already do this, and choose a better attack action.That's actually quite wrong:
Sudden Pounce is not a Leap, it's a Long Jump.
That means it's Stride+Jump (up to Stride distance)+Strike.
Basically the feat is a better version of Sudden Charge (cause it gives similar movement plus Off-Guard)
With Sudden Charge already being a very decent level 1 feat, an improved version of it, that you can "cheat" some of it's actions via OTH is actually very strong for a level 1 feat.
It is a Flourish for the same reasons that Charge is a Flourish: it comoresses 3 actions into a 2 action activity.
Sudden Charge allows you to make turns and works with any speed. Sudden Pounce doesn't. This is very relevant in a real encounter.
Also Sudden Charge allows to make up to 2 Strides, while Sudden Pounce allows only one Long Jump.
So unless you have a cliff in your way you still are limited by your own speed and also have a failure chance.
I said "similar" because each has its peculiarities, you can only turn on the 1st Stride with Jump indeed, so at some cases double Stride is better, but on other occasions there is difficult terrain, hazards, gaps, so Long Jump is better.
I don't know if it would be that advantageous.
So, difficult terrain isn't a big problem for the Sudden Pounce unless the character has less than 20 feet of speed. But it's important to remember that you need to consider the smallest possible displacement in the Sudden Pounce so you don't risk the Long Jump ending before your weapon's reach.For example:
LvL 1:
- Sudden Charge on normal terrain: 50 feet + Strike.
- Sudden Charge on difficult terrain: 25 feet + Strike.
The target can be anywhere within this distance, and you can move in any direction throughout the movement.
- Sudden Pounce on normal terrain: 25 feet + 10* feet (Long Jump) + Strike.
- Sudden Pounce on difficult terrain: 10 feet + 10* feet (Long Jump) + Strike.
Unlike Sudden Charge, you can only make turns during the Strike. Your Long Jump will follow the same direction you went in the last square, requiring that there are no obstacles. There is a chance of failure.
*Additionally, if you don't want to risk ending your Long Jump at a distance outside the reach of your weapon, even if you passed the test, because if you walked 10 feet and your roll only managed to jump 15 feet, but your opponent is 30 feet away, you won't be able to make your Strike, even if you passed the test, because you landed one square before them. So ideally, you should use your Stride to get as close as possible to avoid falling too far from the target, which considerably negates the advantage you would have on hard terror (and even on common if your opponent is farther away than your movement +15 feet). Besides the chance of critical failure until at least level 3, when you can use Assurance.
Sudden Pounce is much more limited than it seems. In practice, it's a shorter Sudden Charge, with a chance to cause off-guard, at least in the first two levels (from level 3 onwards, when you become an expert in Athletics, you can use Assurance on it). It has a 35% failure rate + 5% critical failure rate at level 1, and a 30% failure rate at level 2.
Against hazards, it's also quite relative, depending on the size of the hazard(s) and whether it's jumpable, which isn't always the case; many cause higher damage than the burning ground or simply cause damage just by getting close, as happens with lava terrain.
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Regarding OTH, I completely agree with you.
If you increase the Speed to 30ft playing as elf or centaur you can grant the Sudden Pounce become more safer because its minimum increases to 15ft yet having a critical failure effect until you get Assurance. Yet the other restrictions remains, you still need that your last square Striding be in the direction of your target, the Long Jump stil can't do curves and if you try to do this in someone that is far from 45ft you risk to fail and lose your Strike.
In this same situation the Sudden Strike allows to run up to 60ft with 30ft speed granting the Strike.
If both have to deal with difficult terrain the Sudden Pounce reduces to only 15ft allowing you to make turns + 15ft granted Long Jump while Sudden Strike is reduced by 30ft but still allowing the full control over your path.
Again I'm not saying that the Sudden Pounce is bad but it's no better than Suden Strike it has its own pros and cons, with Sudden Pounce giving the off-guard benefit for your Strike while Suden Strike giving a longer distance with more granular path control.