Does Psychic Spellcasting remove "manipulate" trait from spells?

[daion_anri]

Hello everyone! Please, help me to clarify this wording:

"You access the vast well of power that resides within your own mind, calling forth psychic magic with nothing but thought and will. You are a spellcaster and can cast occult spells using the Cast a Spell activity (Pathfinder Player Core 299). You don’t need to utter incantations to cast your spells, instead exerting your mind toward your intended effect as described in your subconscious mind class feature. Your spells still have clear and noticeable visual and auditory manifestations, as normal for a spellcaster."

Source: Pathfinder 2e Dark Archive Remaster.

I see clearly "You don’t need to utter incantations". It means Psychic spellcasting remove "auditory" trait from spells.

During my time playing games, I've seen the "lazy" nature of PF2e rules: Rules do only what they say, and nothing more.

But I still have doubts, because of two things:
1) "calling forth psychic magic with nothing but
thought and will" - it can be interpreted like Psychic need no nothing do to cast spells, even manipulate with their limbs or something like this, which we understand as a "manipulate" trait.
2) The most common and popular image of psychic/psionic - it is a creature that does everything with the power of the mind, without interacting with the world directly with the body.

I hope you can help me clear my doubts regarding this issue.

[shroudb]

No. Unfortunately, Psychic spellcasting does nothing about the manipulate Trait.

The one thing it does is allowing you to cast without speaking, so you can cast in Silence and etc (although the manifestations themselves are still very audible, so it's not like *they* won't be heard from across the hall, it's just that you don't need to speak.)

[Super Zero]

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

It also doesn't remove Manipulate, and didn't do that before the Remaster, either.
I'd disagree that the common image of psychics involves them only using their minds. I think most often they're depicted touching their heads, touching their targets, and/or directing their powers with a hand.

Though part of that is that an image needs to cover what's happening through imagery.

[Finoan]

daion_anri wrote:

1) "calling forth psychic magic with nothing but

thought and will" - it can be interpreted like Psychic need no nothing do to cast spells, even manipulate with their limbs or something like this, which we understand as a "manipulate" trait.

That first sentence is what I call the narrative description. It isn't meant to be strictly literal rules text. It is intended to be memorable and interesting.

In the context of a rules discussion, "nothing but thought and will" would be called out as hyperbole. The rules for Psychic Spellcasting would only override the normal spellcasting rules where they say that they do. In this case, only the incantation requirements of the Cast a Spell activity are removed and replaced with what is noted in the Subconscious Mind class feature. So the Psychic would still have the need for the gestures part of the Cast a Spell activity (even though it is not mentioned) as well as still causing the visual and audible manifestations that is mentioned in Psychic Spellcasting.

[Finoan]

Super Zero wrote:

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

That is also a good point that I think needs more attention.

So an example would be Bullhorn. A Psychic could cast the spell without uttering any incantations, but would still have to speak in order for their voice to be amplified and heard by all creatures in the spell's range.

[QuidEst]

Finoan wrote:

Super Zero wrote:

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

That is also a good point that I think needs more attention.

So an example would be Bullhorn. A Psychic could cast the spell without uttering any incantations, but would still have to speak in order for their voice to be amplified and heard by all creatures in the spell's range.

We even see The Silent Whisper address this by removing the Auditory trait from Message to make it a purely telepathic spell.

[daion_anri]

Finoan wrote:

Super Zero wrote:

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

That is also a good point that I think needs more attention.

So an example would be Bullhorn. A Psychic could cast the spell without uttering any incantations, but would still have to speak in order for their voice to be amplified and heard by all creatures in the spell's range.

If I correct understand this part, then Psychic spellcasting allow you cast when you are silenced, because you don't need to speak during your spell casting. But in some cases - you have to speak if spell enforce you to do it. For example we can see this spell Wails of the Damned - this spell have auditory trait, and we see this part in spell description "You howl a lament of damned souls..." - this spell in the same situation like Bullhorn spell. I think this is kind a narrative issue and you can just reflavore this spell and do it without your "mounth" and "prononceation". This reflavore is necessary to apply the Psychic spellcasting rule.

Am I correct in my thoughts?

[Errenor]

daion_anri wrote:

If I correct understand this part, then Psychic spellcasting allow you cast when you are silenced, because you don't need to speak during your spell casting. But in some cases - you have to speak if spell enforce you to do it. For example we can see this spell Wails of the Damned - this spell have auditory trait, and we see this part in spell description "You howl a lament of damned souls..." - this spell in the same situation like Bullhorn spell. I think this is kind a narrative issue and you can just reflavore this spell and do it without your "mounth" and "prononceation". This reflavore is necessary to apply the Psychic spellcasting rule.

Am I correct in my thoughts?

No. Psychic spellcasting does not remove any traits of any spells. It does not remove any traits from an action of casting a spell either - if the spell had manipulate and concentrate traits it still has both of them. Needing to say incantantions is outside of the trait system.

So there's no narrative issue whatsover. You can cast Bullhorn or Wails of the Damned in Silence zone using Psychic spellcasting (or Subtle spell feats I guess). But both of these spells just won't work after that because of the Auditory trait:
"Auditory actions and effects rely on sound. An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the required sounds. A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it. "

[QuidEst]

daion_anri wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Super Zero wrote:

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

That is also a good point that I think needs more attention.

So an example would be Bullhorn. A Psychic could cast the spell without uttering any incantations, but would still have to speak in order for their voice to be amplified and heard by all creatures in the spell's range.

If I correct understand this part, then Psychic spellcasting allow you cast when you are silenced, because you don't need to speak during your spell casting. But in some cases - you have to speak if spell enforce you to do it. For example we can see this spell Wails of the Damned - this spell have auditory trait, and we see this part in spell description "You howl a lament of damned souls..." - this spell in the same situation like Bullhorn spell. I think this is kind a narrative issue and you can just reflavore this spell and do it without your "mounth" and "prononceation". This reflavore is necessary to apply the Psychic spellcasting rule.

Am I correct in my thoughts?

Wails of the Damned doesn't work on a deaf target and doesn't work in an area of silence. Psychic doesn't do anything too change that. That's a function of what the spell does and trait requirements, not general casting rules.