Punishing Shove & Stunt Damage

[Castilliano]

Others have commented on Punishing Shove (Guardian, 1st) and its impact on Daredevils. This thread is to insert that into the zeitgeist, address the issue if it is one, and extrapolate together from there.

Punishing Shove
Trained Athletics, 1st: Shove adds Str damage
Expert, 3rd: Str +2
Master, 7th: Str+6
Legendary, 15th: Str+12
Double damage on a Crit Success.

Stunt Damage
1st Str+1d6
5th Str+2d6
9th Str+3d6
13th Str+4d6
17th Str+5d6
Not doubled on a Crit Success, requires target to hit a Prop.

I dislike how you'd get Str twice, but they do occur separately (once when Shoved and once when the Shove's resolved/target hits Prop). This feels like a lot of damage, but is it?
1d6+8, 11.5, so Barbarian damage, except targeting Fort and in two instances re: Resistance (w/ few having Weakness to it). And you don't actually get it until 4th, so 1d6+10, soon to be 2d6+10, 17, at 5th. That's a bit behind the martial curve. And it goes up to 5d6+26, 43.5, which others surpass, but the Daredevil hasn't invested any gold yet also reap no benefits of triggering Weakness. So that feels fine in the end to me, WHICH IS WORRISOME FOR HOW WEAK STUNT DAMAGE IS WITHOUT IT.

More prominent question then becomes, does this feat make MCD Guardian a must-have if Shoving a lot? (And Daredevil feats offer a lot of Shoving.)
If Stunt Damage is/gets internally balanced to be competitive, then it seems yes, add this on top. That's a lot more bonus damage than you can pick up w/ other MCDs. If Stunt Damage is not competitive, that would be it's own major design flaw. MCD comes with armor too, maybe Aggressive Block, and as someone else suggested, Larger than Life. MCD kinda overshadows class feats. Daredevil then encourages playing a one-trick Shove pony, a big, armored bully.
Seems most ways of nipping this require heavy-handed interference, with the exception perhaps being to give Daredevil Punishing Shove...then let them apply it to more maneuvers, and if they involve a Prop, Daredevil gets a perk, perhaps a Save vs. a Condition though the number of potential extra effects is lengthy.

Thoughts?

[exequiel759]

I feel this combo is just too good for daredevils to not be restricted on release (see the recent psychic nerfs to avoid the magus poaching its features). The question is, how are they going to restrict it? A (much needed) buff to Stunt Damage wouldn't avoid people taking Punishing Shove since its obviously more damage, but they can't really prohibit you taking Punishing Shove in a way that didn't feel arbritary or dumb.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised most features of the daredevil received an overhaul on release to prevent exactly this.

[shroudb]

Castilliano wrote:

Others have commented on Punishing Shove (Guardian, 1st) and its impact on Daredevils. This thread is to insert that into the zeitgeist, address the issue if it is one, and extrapolate together from there.

Punishing Shove
Trained Athletics, 1st: Shove adds Str damage
Expert, 3rd: Str +2
Master, 7th: Str+6
Legendary, 15th: Str+12
Double damage on a Crit Success.

Stunt Damage
1st Str+1d6
5th Str+2d6
9th Str+3d6
13th Str+4d6
17th Str+5d6
Not doubled on a Crit Success, requires target to hit a Prop.

I dislike how you'd get Str twice, but they do occur separately (once when Shoved and once when the Shove's resolved/target hits Prop). This feels like a lot of damage, but is it?
1d6+8, 11.5, so Barbarian damage, except targeting Fort and in two instances re: Resistance (w/ few having Weakness to it). And you don't actually get it until 4th, so 1d6+10, soon to be 2d6+10, 17, at 5th. That's a bit behind the martial curve. And it goes up to 5d6+26, 43.5, which others surpass, but the Daredevil hasn't invested any gold yet also reap no benefits of triggering Weakness. So that feels fine in the end to me, WHICH IS WORRISOME FOR HOW WEAK STUNT DAMAGE IS WITHOUT IT.

More prominent question then becomes, does this feat make MCD Guardian a must-have if Shoving a lot? (And Daredevil feats offer a lot of Shoving.)
If Stunt Damage is/gets internally balanced to be competitive, then it seems yes, add this on top. That's a lot more bonus damage than you can pick up w/ other MCDs. If Stunt Damage is not competitive, that would be it's own major design flaw. MCD comes with armor too, maybe Aggressive Block, and as someone else suggested, Larger than Life. MCD kinda overshadows class feats. Daredevil then encourages playing a one-trick Shove pony, a big, armored bully.
Seems most ways of nipping this require heavy-handed interference, with the exception perhaps being to give Daredevil Punishing Shove...then let them apply it to more maneuvers, and if they involve a Prop, Daredevil gets a perk, perhaps a Save...

and then you combine that with Centaur, and you have 2d6+24 at level 7. Above what even a Giant Barbarian can do (which at that point would be 2d12+16).

And that's on a class with feat choices allowing you to, at that level: Stride+Shove, followed by Strike+Shove at -3, followed by whatever other action you want for the round (which could be another Shove for all you care...)

[Castilliano]

Forgot about the Centaur's boost to Shoves via Practiced Brawn, 1st. Successes auto-crit...on an attack you can take Assurance for. Woe is the foe w/ low Fort.

Yes, Shove was an orphan maneuver, but the numerous minor bumps to make it worthwhile are stacking into major damage. Sneaky power creep haunting the unlit passageways. And there are other Barb & Fighter feats that work with Shove, balanced on it being just some movement.

[Teridax]

I think this shines a light on what I think is a design flaw that could have turned into a problem at any point, and is likely a problem now: there's a ton of untyped damage riders in a game that otherwise goes out of its way to prevent stacking the same bonus via typing.

When it comes to spell damage, for instance, a lot of bonus damage tends to be a status bonus, so a Psychic couldn't take Dangerous Sorcery from the premaster Sorcerer to add triple their spell's rank to damage. Even for comparatively more minor feats like Burn It!, the bonus damage is a status bonus. For martial attacks, though, the typing is far less consistent: in this particular case, there are a lot of mechanics that were clearly designed to make the Shove action a bit better under the same circumstances, but because Punishing Shove, Powerful Shove, and stunt damage are all untyped, they all stack with one another. It doesn't help that Practiced Brawn bumps up successes to crits on attempts to Shove: individually, each of these benefits grant a large bonus to an otherwise relatively situational action, but together on a class that already wants to Shove, that's a lot of excessive synergy that risks making this kind of archetype-heavy build path optimal on the Daredevil (or as optimal as trying to Shove enemies into props gets).

All of which is to say, if these instances of damage were errata'd as circumstance bonuses to damage, then the problem could likely be avoided entirely. Centaur Daredevils would still have a fun time auto-crit Shoving enemies into props (assuming the props are large enough or you took the Ponygait heritage), but otherwise you wouldn't be pushed to archetype into two separate classes to triple-dip into collision damage.

[shroudb]

Teridax wrote:

I think this shines a light on what I think is a design flaw that could have turned into a problem at any point, and is likely a problem now: there's a ton of untyped damage riders in a game that otherwise goes out of its way to prevent stacking the same bonus via typing.

When it comes to spell damage, for instance, a lot of bonus damage tends to be a status bonus, so a Psychic couldn't take Dangerous Sorcery from the premaster Sorcerer to add triple their spell's rank to damage. Even for comparatively more minor feats like Burn It!, the bonus damage is a status bonus. For martial attacks, though, the typing is far less consistent: in this particular case, there are a lot of mechanics that were clearly designed to make the Shove action a bit better under the same circumstances, but because Punishing Shove, Powerful Shove, and stunt damage are all untyped, they all stack with one another. It doesn't help that Practiced Brawn bumps up successes to crits on attempts to Shove: individually, each of these benefits grant a large bonus to an otherwise relatively situational action, but together on a class that already wants to Shove, that's a lot of excessive synergy that risks making this kind of archetype-heavy build path optimal on the Daredevil (or as optimal as trying to Shove enemies into props gets).

All of which is to say, if these instances of damage were errata'd as circumstance bonuses to damage, then the problem could likely be avoided entirely. Centaur Daredevils would still have a fun time auto-crit Shoving enemies into props (assuming the props are large enough or you took the Ponygait heritage), but otherwise you wouldn't be pushed to archetype into two separate classes to triple-dip into collision damage.

This case is a bit more nuisant than that. Martial bonuses do tend to follow the similar status/circumstance/item types like caster bonuses, with the exception of "additional" or "extra" damage instances popping out here or there that you do not see in casters. But even those additional or added sources of damage are pretty well regulated.

The problem in this occasion is not so much the type of bonus that adds the damage, but it is two separate damage rolls, with different triggers and timing, but both of those are keyed to the same Action.

In this case, I think the main problem stems from the fact that because Shove was weak as a baseline, instead of fixing that baseline they instead thought of adding different abilities to it to try to bring it up on par.

But the danger here, an what happenned, was that the amount of those added abilities simply reached a critical mass.

Each one of them is individually weak, and when you add it to an already weak ability, it doesn't really stand out. Even two of them together do not actually break the power threshold of the game (or else you would have already seen threads of Centaur Guardians being "op"). But now that we have a third ability on top of that, it suddenly went over the threshold.

---

I do not believe that the fix is as easy as simply changing the type of bonus offered, since that will do practically nothing.

The only realistic solution that I can think of is rather blant: Since the current abilities on the live books are enough to reach, but not breach, the threshold, no more "add x to Shove" abilities should be added. And that includes Stunt damage.

Stunt damage is already a very weak mechanic imo to begin with, completely scrapping it from Daredevil, and instead finding another source of martial damage for the class, would be for the best, even if that's the more troublesome solution for the developers.

[exequiel759]

I agree Stunt Damage likely isn't going to be a thing on release in its current state. Its just too weak right now. The thing is, what feature could replace it? The daredevil needs some kind of damage steroid because the things the class wants you to do with it don't deal damage innately, but if the replacement to Stunt Damage deals, well, damage, Paizo is going to run into this same problem again regardless.

I feel like the most probable outcome here is for Paizo to ignore it in mean time, but eventually errata Punishing Shove and similar features to be a circumstance bonus. After all, they have a year and half to do this, which means they have (I think?) 3 chances to do it before the release of the class.

[shroudb]

exequiel759 wrote:

I agree Stunt Damage likely isn't going to be a thing on release in its current state. Its just too weak right now. The thing is, what feature could replace it? The daredevil needs some kind of damage steroid because the things the class wants you to do with it don't deal damage innately, but if the replacement to Stunt Damage deals, well, damage, Paizo is going to run into this same problem again regardless.

I feel like the most probable outcome here is for Paizo to ignore it in mean time, but eventually errata Punishing Shove and similar features to be a circumstance bonus. After all, they have a year and half to do this, which means they have (I think?) 3 chances to do it before the release of the class.

Stunt damage *could* stay, with the specific triggers on it on Feat abilities.

The troublesome thing is the part that pairs up with Shove, which could simply be changed to something like "When you Strike a Prone or Grabbed enemy, or an enemy adjucent to a Prop you add you Stunt Damage."

That keeps feats that build upon Stunt damage working, gives a reason to open up with maneuvers and follow them with Press Strikes, and gives those Risky "Do a maneuver and then a strike" feats even more purpose.

The fact that you can now trigger it more often is counterbalanced that it now requires a Strike to proc as oppossed to be procced "for free" by the Shove, and even if it comes up more often, currently it's underpowered so the boost wouldn't be unwelcomed. If that proves to be "too much" you can always lower it to Sneak attack progression or something.

---

The problem with changing Punishing Shove and etc to "circumstance bonus" is that a bonus needs to be added to something. Shove by itself doesn't have a damage roll to "add" a bonus to it.

So it does require Punishing Shove to be its own Instance of damage rather than a Bonus to damage.

[Teridax]

I don't think stunt damage needs to go, personally, as I think it's really fun to be able to launch enemies into the environment, as well as other enemies, and be incentivized for it. The problem in my opinion is that right now, stunt damage by itself is quite poor, and the means to apply it are generally quite unreliable. Either stunt damage needs to be made much more reliable, in the sense that it would trigger constantly while tumbling around and maneuvering enemies, or it needs to be much more rewarding, in that it would deal significantly more damage when it happens. It could perhaps even stand to be both.

[YuriP]

If we check the value of the additional damage from Punishing Shove, it's not so brutal; It's basically the equivalent of a giant barbarian rage additional damage. Very high damage, but nothing that is likely to break the game.

Castilliano wrote:

1st: Shove adds Str damage

Expert, 3rd: Str +2
Master, 7th: Str+6
Legendary, 15th: Str+12

So, considering that you use STR as key:

LvL 4: 6
LvL 7: 10
LvL 10: 11
LvL 15: 17
LvL 17: 18
LvL 20: 19

Castilliano wrote:

Stunt Damage

1st Str+1d6
5th Str+2d6
9th Str+3d6
13th Str+4d6
17th Str+5d6

LvL 4: 1d6 [+4(str) +6(Punishing Shove)]=+10 - avg: 13.5

LvL 5: 2d6 [+4(str) +6(Punishing Shove)]=+10 - avg: 17
LvL 7: 2d6 [+4(str) +10(Punishing Shove)]=+14 - avg: 21
LvL 9: 3d6 [+4(str) +10(Punishing Shove)]=+14 - avg: 24.5
LvL 10: 3d6 [+5(str) +11(Punishing Shove)]=+16 - avg: 26.5
LvL 13: 4d6 [+5(str) +11(Punishing Shove)]=+16 - avg: 30
LvL 15: 4d6 [+5(str) +17(Punishing Shove)]=+22 - avg: 36
LvL 17: 5d6 [+6(str) +18(Punishing Shove)]=+24 - avg: 41.5
LvL 20: 5d6 [+7(str) +19(Punishing Shove)]=+26 - avg: 43.5

So now let us compare with the giant barbie using just a bastard sword:
LvL 4: 2d8/d12 +4(str) +6(rage) - avg: 19/23
LvL 7: 2d8/d12 +4(str) +2(weapon specialization) +10(rage) - avg: 25/29
LvL 8: 2d8/d12 +4(str) +2(weapon specialization) +10(rage) + 1d6(1 property rune) - avg: 28.5/32.5
LvL 10: 2d8/d12 +5(str) +2(weapon specialization) +10(rage) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 33/37
LvL 12: 3d8/d12 +5(str) +2(weapon specialization) +10(rage) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 37.5/43.5
LvL 13: 3d8/d12 +5(str) +3(weapon specialization) +10(rage) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 38.5/44.5
LvL 15: 3d8/d12 +5(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +18(rage) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 49.5/55.5
LvL 16: 3d8/d12 +5(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +18(rage) + 3d6(3 property runes) - avg: 53/59
LvL 17: 3d8/d12 +6(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +18(rage) + 3d6(3 property runes) - avg: 54/60
LvL 18: 3d8/d12 +6(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +18(rage) + 4d6(4 property runes) - avg: 57.5/63.5
LvL 19: 4d8/d12 +6(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +18(rage) + 4d6(4 property runes) - avg: 62/70
LvL 20: 4d8/d12 +7(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +18(rage) + 4d6(4 property runes) - avg: 63/71

Maybe a barbie is not fair because Shove has an agile trait, so let us make a comparison with a ruffian rogue instead:
LvL 4: 2d6 +4(str) +1d6(sneak attack) - avg: 14.5
LvL 5: 2d6 +4(str) +2d6(sneak attack) - avg: 18
LvL 7: 2d6 +4(str) +2(weapon specialization) +2d6(sneak attack) - avg: 20
LvL 8: 2d6 +4(str) +2(weapon specialization) +2d6(sneak attack) + 1d6(1 property rune) - avg: 23.5
LvL 10: 2d6 +5(str) +2(weapon specialization) +2d6(sneak attack) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 28
LvL 11: 2d6 +5(str) +2(weapon specialization) +3d6(sneak attack) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 31.5
LvL 12: 3d6 +5(str) +2(weapon specialization) +3d6(sneak attack) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 35
LvL 13: 3d6 +5(str) +3(weapon specialization) +3d6(sneak attack) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 36
LvL 15: 3d6 +5(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +3d6(sneak attack) + 2d6(2 property runes) - avg: 39
LvL 16: 3d6 +5(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +3d6(sneak attack) + 3d6(3 property runes) - avg: 42.5
LvL 17: 3d6 +6(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +4d6(sneak attack) + 3d6(3 property runes) - avg: 47
LvL 18: 3d6 +6(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +4d6(sneak attack) + 4d6(4 property runes) - avg: 50.5
LvL 19: 4d6 +6(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +4d6(sneak attack) + 4d6(4 property runes) - avg: 54
LvL 20: 4d6 +7(str) +6(greater weapon specialization) +4d6(sneak attack) + 4d6(4 property runes) - avg: 55
Obs: It's missing the Debilitation Strike damage because it depends on having hit at least one strike to an off-guard creature to enable it, but if you want to include it, just add +5 due to the weakness.

So the combined damage of Punishing Shove + Stunt Damage is always lower than the damage of a barbie, and only competes with rogue until level 10 and then progressively falls behind in average due to the extra property runes damage that Shove doesn't get. Also, this Shove damage doesn't crit, which makes it fall behind in terms of DPR.

The main problem, IMO, is that to make the Shove damage competitive with a default extra damage martial, you need to MC with guardian and take another level 1 feat (that's why I only start the comparisons at level 4). It's a bit harder to execute once you need that your target is flanked between you and a prop larger than you. Something undesirable because this can create a meta, and as we saw with the old magus + psychic (and still in a lower grade with magus + MC domain spell), such metas are not desirable.

IMO this could be easily solved if the final version of the DD by the designer gave a way to add the Stunt Damage to the Strikes and other maneuvers. This easily turns this combo with Punishing Strike weaker than your Strikes.

[siegfriedliner]

So calling stunt damage forceful maneuvers and allowing it to apply to attack actions that don't do damage would make it easier to apply and avoid double dipping, but at that poiny your more a wrestler than a daredevil

[YuriP]

Yes, many daredevil options looks like a brawler/wrestler class yet the class have some cool daredevil movements, especially with feats that require adrenaline.

I put 3 examples in this post.

[Teridax]

This probably goes beyond the scope of this playtest, but thinking more about this, it feels like forced movement probably ought to include some measure of collision damage by default, which feats like Punishing Shove or class features like stunt damage ought to build upon (using a bonus of the same type). It's not just that Repositioning and Shoving, both situational actions, are also both inherently less effective when the enemy's forced movement gets cut short by terrain, forced movement in general tends to come from some violent force and should probably carry consequences if you hit something or someone along the way. In the case of both the Daredevil and the Slayer, there's a degree of feature bloat that I think comes from trying to incubate what should be a broader mechanic or system within just a single class, and in the Daredevil's case I think it could solve a lot of problems to externalize collision damage and simply have their features and feats make them the best at using that to their advantage.

[exequiel759]

Teridax wrote:

This probably goes beyond the scope of this playtest, but thinking more about this, it feels like forced movement probably ought to include some measure of collision damage by default, which feats like Punishing Shove or class features like stunt damage ought to build upon (using a bonus of the same type). It's not just that Repositioning and Shoving, both situational actions, are also both inherently less effective when the enemy's forced movement gets cut short by terrain, forced movement in general tends to come from some violent force and should probably carry consequences if you hit something or someone along the way. In the case of both the Daredevil and the Slayer, there's a degree of feature bloat that I think comes from trying to incubate what should be a broader mechanic or system within just a single class, and in the Daredevil's case I think it could solve a lot of problems to externalize collision damage and simply have their features and feats make them the best at using that to their advantage.

NGL I would love if this book introduced a trophy and collision system that everyone could use, but which the two new classes would excel at using.

[rainzax]

What if Stunt damage progressed 1d6 at odd levels and did not add an ability modifier?

1st/3rd/5th/7th @ 1d6/2d6/3d6/4d6?

[shroudb]

rainzax wrote:

What if Stunt damage progressed 1d6 at odd levels and did not add an ability modifier?

1st/3rd/5th/7th @ 1d6/2d6/3d6/4d6?

It still wouldn't fix the fundamental problem of a single level 1 Guardian Feat doubling it's damage, making it a "mandatory archetype".

[exequiel759]

Yeah. Stunt Damage could deal 100 damage at 1st level and people would still dip guardian for Punishing Shove because its more damage.

[Mathmuse]

shroudb wrote:

rainzax wrote:

What if Stunt damage progressed 1d6 at odd levels and did not add an ability modifier?

1st/3rd/5th/7th @ 1d6/2d6/3d6/4d6?

It still wouldn't fix the fundamental problem of a single level 1 Guardian Feat doubling it's damage, making it a "mandatory archetype".

How about if Stunt Damage had a line about not stacking? "If the forced movement would deal damage on its own, such as a critical success on a Trip, then roll both that damage and the stunt damage and choose one to apply."

And yes, I do think that a daredevil's successful Trip ought to deal stunt damage, though that is not in the playtest as written.

[Agonarchy]

I think they're going to need to build stunt damage directly into the abilities, otherwise they're going to have to police forced movement abilities across the whole game.

[shroudb]

Agonarchy wrote:

I think they're going to need to build stunt damage directly into the abilities, otherwise they're going to have to police forced movement abilities across the whole game.

They could make it part of Risky Trait with an add-on restriction for further abilities:

"Maneuver Specialist (level 1): You gain the Titan Wresler feat. For its effects you may use Acrobatics instead of Athletics and it gains the Daredevil Trait."

"Stunt damage: If you Succeed on a maneuver that's part of an Action with the Risky Trait then you also deal X damage. Maneuvers that are part of a Risky Action can only benefit from feats with the Daredevil Trait."

[Castilliano]

Or give Punishing Shove to 1st level Daredevils w/ a bonus effect if a Prop/obstacle gets involved (and maybe as a circumstance bonus if that's damage, for future balance). Then add a way (likely in the chassis) for Daredevils to apply Punishing Shove damage to other maneuvers/effects (or Daredevil or Adrenaline feats as a whole). I also would appreciate DD's getting PS's critical damage doubling. Seems a bit necessary when their main damage output seems to be generic Strike w/ big weapon.

The current meta would support Daredevils favoring mauls...which hardly feels on brand to me.

Centaurs will remain wonky, but less so and they're Uncommon (or that feat could get errata because somebody didn't think that through/futureproof it).

[exequiel759]

I'm not really a fan of "You gain X feat" class features unless its thematic (like Dubious Knowledge is for thaumaturges). Punishing Shove is straight up a damage feat, and even when it procs when doing something thats arguably thematic for the daredevil, I don't consider it a thematic feat personally.

I also don't think daredevils should gain Titan Wrestler either. They should instead have a feature that allows them to ignore size restrictions for the purposes of Athletics maneuvers. Not just the "two sizes larger" from Titan Wrestler (so daredevils of all sizes can work).

In a way I feel this problem was going to inevitably happen at some point. Paizo has released a ton of feats to improve shove because it was the worst Athletics maneuver by a mile, and now they have the problem that they want to make a class that revolves around it but they (I assume) don't want it to poach said feats. You can't take away Stunt Damage from the daredevil because it needs it (like really need it), and you can't remove it either because that only makes that dip for Punishing Shove even more desirable, so their only way to avoid this problem are either to errata all these feats and make then even less desirable for the classes that have them or somehow make the daredevil work with grapples, trips, and shoves that aren't grapples, trips, and shoves but work exactly like them so they legally can't use them.

[Castilliano]

So which of those two evils are you less "really a fan of"? Which to say, I also wish Punishing Shove weren't automatic (or feel like a must-have), but it seems necessary because it won't stack with itself.

[exequiel759]

I would want to see if people would be so eager to take Punishing Shove (and other similar feats like Brutish Shove) if Stunt Damage worked with grapples and trips as well. It can't be denied grapple and trip are much better maneuvers than shove, so if Stunt Damage worked with them then Punishing Shove and Brutish Shove wouldn't be as much of a problem because I feel most people wouldn't be bothered with shove if they had they choice to ignore it.

But answering your question; I think they could theoretically errata these feats to make shove deal damage innately, while also providing a circumstance bonus to damage on top of it. If Stunt Damage worked in a similar way, then presumably both the innate damage from shove (and hopefully grapple and trip too) would be lower than that of Punishing Shove, and the circumstance bonus wouldn't stack either way.

Let's say Punishing Shove was changed to "When you successfully Shove a creature, that creature takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier. If you are an expert on Athletics, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to damage when Shoving, which increases to +6 if you are a master, or +12 if you are legendary." while Stunt Damage was changed to "Whenever you have adrenaline and force a target to move, knock it to the ground, or grab or restrain it, the target takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 2d6 plus your Strength modifier. If you are a master on Athletics, you gain a circumstance bonus to damage for the purposes of this ability equal to your Strength modifier, or double your Strength modifier if you are legendary." (Don't mind the numbers too much here)

Brutish Shove is a bit harder to tweak, but I feel Brutish Shove (or a similar feat) should exist in the daredevil's list anyways.

Ideally, Shove itself could also be errata'ed to deal damage and both Stunt Damage and Punishing Shove were entirely a circumstance bonus on top as well.

[Castilliano]

Yes, circumstance bonuses would retrofit in easily, and hold into the future. And I agree if Daredevil's the maneuver guy, they should access some of the preexisting maneuver feats.

[shroudb]

exequiel759 wrote:

I would want to see if people would be so eager to take Punishing Shove (and other similar feats like Brutish Shove) if Stunt Damage worked with grapples and trips as well. It can't be denied grapple and trip are much better maneuvers than shove, so if Stunt Damage worked with them then Punishing Shove and Brutish Shove wouldn't be as much of a problem because I feel most people wouldn't be bothered with shove if they had they choice to ignore it.

But answering your question; I think they could theoretically errata these feats to make shove deal damage innately, while also providing a circumstance bonus to damage on top of it. If Stunt Damage worked in a similar way, then presumably both the innate damage from shove (and hopefully grapple and trip too) would be lower than that of Punishing Shove, and the circumstance bonus wouldn't stack either way.

Let's say Punishing Shove was changed to "When you successfully Shove a creature, that creature takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier. If you are an expert on Athletics, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to damage when Shoving, which increases to +6 if you are a master, or +12 if you are legendary." while Stunt Damage was changed to "Whenever you have adrenaline and force a target to move, knock it to the ground, or grab or restrain it, the target takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 2d6 plus your Strength modifier. If you are a master on Athletics, you gain a circumstance bonus to damage for the purposes of this ability equal to your Strength modifier, or double your Strength modifier if you are legendary." (Don't mind the numbers too much here)

Brutish Shove is a bit harder to tweak, but I feel Brutish Shove (or a similar feat) should exist in the daredevil's list anyways.

Ideally, Shove itself could also be errata'ed to deal damage and both Stunt Damage and Punishing Shove were entirely a circumstance bonus on top as well.

I'm not sure that RAW that would work. Since Punishing Shove would be its own instance of damage, and Stunt damage would be its own instance of damage. Even if both had circumstance bonuses, it wouldn't change anything.

What would need to happen would be for Punishing Shove (or any other source of damage really, like "so Strength damage when you grapple as an example) and Stunt damage were the same Instance of damage.

And I'm not sure how you can word Stunt damage to simply be added to a preexisting source of damage that may, or may not, be present in a maneuver rather than be its own instance of damage.

[YuriP]

As I said before, I don't see a problem with the Punishing Shove doing extra damage with Stunt.

The AVG damage is similar to or lower than a rogue doing Strike with Sneak Attack damage but way more expensive and harder to do and without critical damage nor effect, without taking advantage of off-guard:
- You need to get a Guardian Dedication feat
- You need to get a Basic Defender feat to take Punishing Shove with it.
- You have to flank your target with a valid prop to Shove it.

This doesn't even compare with rogues that can basically do all their damage against off-guard target using one of many ways to make the target off-guard against them, including flanking.

That's why I can't see the current Punishing Shove combo as an issue by itself but as a signal that the current Stunt Damage with Shove is fundamentally wrong. It's just a bad way to do less damage than a Strike unless you make a MC using 2 feats and work in a very specific condition that is a shove against a valid prop. Moreover, it can cost even more feats if you want to make it work a bit more. Like have to play as a small creature to use medium creatures as props or also having to take a Companion archetype to control a mobile prop. All this costs feats only to do a close damage to what other class do without such effort.

[Castilliano]

Yes, the damage remains within the power curve (albeit for far less gold). And yes, Props & Off-Guard have their ups and downs.

The trouble is Guardian risks becoming a must-have for Daredevils who Shove, which is most, right? The PS feat doubles the damage of Daredevil's primary damage boost, Stunt Damage. (Being a 1st level feat, this reflects poorly on Stunt Damage!) The MCD brings armor (and Taunt on an elusive PC) so it's valuable on its own for the MAD class.

Arguably a Rogue Ruffian/MCD Guardian can out-skill, out-defense, & out-Strike a Daredevil while doing comparative damage w/ Shove (and they have some boosts for other maneuvers too). Hmm, this just occurred to me and I'd have to model some normal builds though in FA this seems like the preferable option re: filling the Daredevil's role.

[Agonarchy]

The presence of AOE shoving options is a factor. While it does require some setup, using Clear the Way in a typical PFS map and smashing at least 3/5 targets into walls is fairly realistic.