I couldn't let Slayer get all the fun! Let's go ahead and see what we can do with Daredevil.
As before, I don't really have a lot of existing characters that fit this in particular. I'd like to do a Great Kholo with a bite focus, and maybe something agile. Seeing if Clawdancer can fit in might be interesting, but archetyping should probably get saved for last.
Let's just go ahead and get started with Great Kholo. We'll be athletics/strength, which means we need to have dexterity secondary and probably tertiary constitution. We'll gently sprinkle in one mental stat as the other tertiary. Crunch is our only relevant kholo feat.
1st: First off, we need a risky feat. We will also want a press action so that we can benefit from adrenaline.
- Breakaway Attack: We've got a d8 bite already- this gives us a risky flourish "unarmed" d8 with deadly d8. Good to have a stronger bludgeoning option too. Strong contender, and it covers our ranged option.
- Flying Hurdle Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Swap places with an enemy. Get a +1 on a crit. Uh... What's the point of this? Like, even if you succeed, you are just in each other's spot. I guess you can use it as a dramatically worse Tumble Through using Athletics?
- Forceful Kickoff Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Acrobatics-based Shove that lets you Leap. Slightly better crit-shove distance. This doesn't seem like a "move away from them" character, and we're focused on Athletics.
- Rebounding Fall Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Acrobatics trip with mildly better crit damage, and prone yourself on failure. Again, we have +1 to actually trip with Athletics.
- Wheeling Pull Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Athletics to grapple and move both of you, and a very minor crit failure effect. Grapple isn't something we get a +1 to, so that's fine. It also resolves against reflex instead of fortitude.
From those, it's reasonable to consider Breakaway Attack for if we just want to beat somebody up and still get risky perks. Wheeling Attack gives us a press that we can use- move up and trip, followed by grapple with reduced MAP against reflex? Unfortunately, off-guard doesn't apply to that but it does apply to AC. Lets go with Breakaway Attack.
That means our Press for accuracy is Pressing Pummel. Move, trip, attack at effective -2. It'd be nice to get Scrambling Retreat for better AC, but we'll keep it in mind later.
2nd: Why roll to hit when Caroming Charge gives us multi-target auto-damage? Heck, we can use Breakaway Attack to get our regular attack and then nyoom for guaranteed follow-up damage against anything without a reaction.
4th: Bouncing Hurl is interesting, giving us a two-target Bouncing Hurl for ranged. Can't do this with Caroming Charge, though, so let's see what else there is. Daring Reversal isn't bad, but it's press, and your first action can almost get you out of flanking without issue. Exhilarating Athlete gives us a slow climb with adrenaline and better leaping, but I don't really think that'll come up much. High-Flying Tumble is Athletics leap-tumble, but we have Caroming Charge to get through somebody's space. Wall Slam needs two props. I guess this is probably a good level to pick up Scrambling Retreat.
6th: Double Breakaway is an extra action for one die of damage and a weak crit effect. Headsmash gives us a grapple follow-up to try and stun lower-level enemies. Rushing Stride gives us move-and-strike as a risky action, but we've off-guard against everyone else. Mainly for a boss...? Weapon Twist Stunt is acrobatics. Nothing I really want, but Rushing Stride or Bouncing Hurl can sit around for when it's the right circumstance.
8th: We can't use Accompanying Strike because it's weapon-based. Escape Shuffle is just... when do you need this? Heightened Awareness is a "twice in a campaign" feat, and again, we have Caroming Charge to get some damage in against enemies we can't target well. Scrambling Roll, though, is giving us +2 on reflex saves as a reaction- not a bad deal. We will go with that.
10th: Deadly Advantage seems like something we needed to build towards earlier. Wait... nope. You have no way to use this in-class, and need somebody else to apply the conditions. (Trip Up is a two-action press with a condition that doesn't last through next turn.) Deadly Advantage should probably be reworked or removed. Hit or Miss is a fun one to pull out in emergencies- especially if you still have a hero point. We'll go with that, since I don't think we're going to be spending actions on one-round temp HP.
12th: Fortify Self is one round an hour? Pass. Knee to the Nethers... doesn't need to specify not needing a free hand, that's normal for unarmed attacks? Great feat, though- getting grapple with a conditional attack in the same action with delayed MAP increase is a very solid Press option. Next is multi-trip, so Knee to the Nethers it is.
14th: Freewheeling Strike is a lot of actions for something so conditional. Opportunistic Press Stunt is your standard press/risky/size-restricted. Stride, reposition, and if an ally is there, they can strike. Shattering Breakaway is a two-action Breakaway to smash a bottle and do bleed with Enfeeble. Weird that only now does something work with Deadly Advantage. Well, this one seems worth it for the debuff, so let's grab it.
16th: We do not have the crit-spec or damage to justify gambling so hard on a crit with Risky Overextension. Deadly Rush isn't for something we're using much. Storm of Debris it is.
18th: Lucky Spark is near-permanent roll twice with +2 on saves. Sounds like this takes the place of any legendary saves, so we kind of have to take it.
20th: Double Scrambling Retreat is funny. But Reckless Abandon gives us no restriction Quickened. That means we can Shattering Breakaway into Caroming Charge every round after the first. That's the strongest capstone feat I've seen. The third one is great, but obviously can't compare.
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Verdict: It feels weird that we went in with the intent to do maneuvers and bite, and we ended up chucking junk at people and bumping into them instead. We fall back on maneuvers and bite whenever we deal with reactive strike. Letting unarmed strikes work better with the class would be nice- make Accompanying Strike support unarmed strikes as well.
What's up with Deadly Advantage, though? You can't get bonus damage from it for another four levels without outside help.
As somebody who doesn't see much use in reposition and shove, I'm glad the class still has enough stuff for me to do. I really like Caroming Charge giving early guaranteed damage, although I'll admit it might be more appropriate at sixth level.
That said, that's that. I think any other Daredevil I built would pick almost the exact same feats, with very little consideration for the others. I'm not all that interested in maneuvers, and Daring Stunt with Audacious Combatant is what it takes to get me to engage with them, but I'm not going to be following up my maneuver with another maneuver if I can help it. Thus, this is a one-character thread for my one Daredevil build.
Remember that feats with both the Risky and Press traits grant you the adrenaline first, before any part of the action happens, so you can absolutely use one and still get adrenaline's MAP reduction.
Meanwhile, I'm poking around with a halfling right now - because stunt damage triggers any time you force a creature into a prop (while having adrenaline), if you can get access to critical specialisations, that's even more potential stunt damage. And hey, the Frying Pan is in the club group! How about a former line cook who's lost all fear of death?
Remember that feats with both the Risky and Press traits grant you the adrenaline first, before any part of the action happens, so you can absolutely use one and still get adrenaline's MAP reduction.
Meanwhile, I'm poking around with a halfling right now - because stunt damage triggers any time you force a creature into a prop (while having adrenaline), if you can get access to critical specialisations, that's even more potential stunt damage. And hey, the Frying Pan is in the club group! How about a former line cook who's lost all fear of death?
Yep. The risky-press options seem like they're mostly maneuvers, so I guess it's a way to get double-agile on them. Ah, I think that's what I was missing from them- I forgot the free built-in agile on athletics checks! With Athletics/Acrobatics being +2 ahead of a strike and double-agile, you're only at -1 vs. a no-MAP strike. I would probably want the risky press grapple, since that's the maneuver that feels best to end your turn on. I'd probably use it on turns when I didn't have to move up.
I had crit spec club in the back of my mind, but yeah, you do need an ancestry crit-spec for it. Frying pan is one-handed and at least crits like a martial weapon. Accompanying Strike and Hit or Miss seem relevant, as well as Wrestler archetype Combat Grab.
One thing I missed was the flexibility features. The first one is useless, since I'm permanently locked into Breakaway Attack. The second one is a bonus risky feat 14th or lower. I'd probably pick up Hit of Miss because the 14th level ones don't feel useful, 12th doesn't have any, that's the only one at 10th, 8th only has the terrible Escape Shuffle, and if I go any lower I'll feel sad.
It seems like the capstone flexibility features has a typo? It changes from risky to press for the requirements. If it's meant to expandd options,bit should probably be risky or press, so that locking in a bonus feat by using it as a pre-req doesn't lock you out of getting the capstone.
Thanks for stopping by; I appreciate the insight! I can see a few more approaches I might enjoy after that.
Hang on. Haaang on. What do we really want on Daredevil, at least in terms of offense? We want the strongest agile attack we can get to stack MAP reduction, and we want good athletics for our maneuvers.
Bestial Mutagen is incredible for this. We get +1 above curve athletics item bonus, +1 above curve attack bonus, agile claws that beat weapon damage at level 11, and we're only paying with our reflex, acrobatics, and stealth?
Going with Kholo, we can sacrifice our wisdom score to have +4 Str, +3 Dex, +2 Int, +1 Con, +0 Cha, -1 Wis at the start of a free archetype game so that we can multiclass archetype into Alchemist. In a regular game, level 6 was pretty dead anyway, so we can wait to boost Int a second time until 5th, and we'll delay Scrambling Roll until 10th.
Once we hit 11th level, we're golden. We're getting our extra damage die a level or two before everyone else, we have near-Fighter accuracy or better on maneuvers, and we fall apart like a wet paper bag the minute any of our saves is targeted. That last one isn't good, but it's certainly thematic.
Stacking that up with the circumstance bonus to trip from Great Kholo, we're doing pretty well. I know that we are passing up Wrestler with this, but dang.
Looking at other weapon options, and prioritising "agile with a maneuver trait" (because having -3 MAP is better), some of the other good picks include the claw blade (agile, deadly d8, disarm, finesse, versatile P), fangwire (agile, backstabber, deadly d8, finesse, grapple), kama (agile, trip), meteor hammer (okay it's not agile, but backswing, disarm, and trip with reach is still nice), orc knuckle dagger (agile, disarm), sai (agile, disarm, finesse, versatile B), scourge (agile, disarm, finesse, nonlethal, sweep), and the poi (agile and backswing). Interesting that there aren't any agile shove options, though you can get backswing or sweep.
So long as you have a hand free, you don't need the maneuver trait- you get agile from your fist attack. But yeah, something like meteor hammer is a good fit.
Agile sweep with a maneuver is wild, though. You can move and maneuver, then press-attack someone else with only -2.
So long as you have a hand free, you don't need the maneuver trait- you get agile from your fist attack. But yeah, something like meteor hammer is a good fit.
Agile sweep with a maneuver is wild, though. You can move and maneuver, then press-attack someone else with only -2.
The only agile sweep weapon with a maneuver trait is the scourge (which has disarm), unfortunately it also only deals 1d4 nonlethal.
The only agile sweep weapon with a maneuver trait is the scourge (which has disarm), unfortunately it also only deals 1d4 nonlethal.So long as you have a hand free, you don't need the maneuver trait- you get agile from your fist attack. But yeah, something like meteor hammer is a good fit.
Agile sweep with a maneuver is wild, though. You can move and maneuver, then press-attack someone else with only -2.
Whoops, yeah , disarm isn't on the list of four things with action compression, so it doesn't work well even if you're counting on the d10 damage press.
Larger than Life from Guardian is worded slightly different than Titan Wrestler, mentioning "or similar abilities" so it should work with them size restricted abilities of Daredevil, since their maneuvers are "similar" to normal maneuvers.
No. The guardian's Larger than Life refers to similar abilities in context of enemy abilities against the character:
When you're clad in the heaviest of armors, you have an outsized presence.
Though you don't get any larger, you're treated as one size larger for the purposes of affecting other creatures with actions like Disarm, Grapple, Reposition, Shove, and Trip while wearing heavy armor.
Similarly, you're treated as one size larger for the purposes of creatures affecting you with those same actions, as well as with Swallow Whole and similar actions, while wearing heavy armor.
I turned the points into paragraphs to make it clearer to understand.
Curiously, the homonymous ability of Kitsune ancestry can allow to Change Shape to become the size you need to affect a larger creature with the feats or props.
Looking at Ancestries that can change sizes, kitsune is initially a bad pick - a tiny fox form that can't make Strikes and has weakness 5 physical is a really fragile option, even if it does mean more things count as props. Larger Than Life and Rampaging Form do have potential for higher levels though.
A conrasu's Ceremony of Growth letting them go from Medium to Large or back as a single action has potential, and Conrasu also get an agile sweep weapon from their Weapon Familiarity (shame it's twin though). Now, what turns an aeon in a plant body into an adrenaline junkie?
Looking at Ancestries that can change sizes, kitsune is initially a bad pick - a tiny fox form that can't make Strikes and has weakness 5 physical is a really fragile option, even if it does mean more things count as props. Larger Than Life and Rampaging Form do have potential for higher levels though.
A conrasu's Ceremony of Growth letting them go from Medium to Large or back as a single action has potential, and Conrasu also get an agile sweep weapon from their Weapon Familiarity (shame it's twin though). Now, what turns an aeon in a plant body into an adrenaline junkie?
Tanuki's also can freely change from small to medium with just one action with Everyday Form. This doesn't solve the problem of creatures larger than this but at least allows us to easily use other medium creatures as props without being locked into using the feats specific maneuvers on only medium targets.
Larger than Life from Guardian is worded slightly different than Titan Wrestler, mentioning "or similar abilities" so it should work with them size restricted abilities of Daredevil, since their maneuvers are "similar" to normal maneuvers.No. The guardian's Larger than Life refers to similar abilities in context of enemy abilities against the character:
When you're clad in the heaviest of armors, you have an outsized presence.
Though you don't get any larger, you're treated as one size larger for the purposes of affecting other creatures with actions like Disarm, Grapple, Reposition, Shove, and Trip while wearing heavy armor.
Similarly, you're treated as one size larger for the purposes of creatures affecting you with those same actions, as well as with Swallow Whole and similar actions, while wearing heavy armor.
I turned the points into paragraphs to make it clearer to understand.
Curiously, the homonymous ability of Kitsune ancestry can allow to Change Shape to become the size you need to affect a larger creature with the feats or props.
bolded the relevant part for you as well:
"you are treated as 1 size larger for the purpose of affecting other creatures with abilities like x, y, z."
and the Feats from Daredevil are most definately "abilities like shove, trip, grapple"
Makes sense. So the real problem is that we not only need to take a dedication and a feat but also increase the armor proficiency to medium with a general feat making this workaround expensive.
The good part is that such a build can drop dex.