PC was disintegrated by a hazard, but can an Exemplar stop them from dying?

[professorbeej]

So my group is playing through Empires Devoured, and they reached the hazard called "A Game of Entropy." They were unlucky, and a character critically failed their save at difficulty-level 5, so they automatically die and get turned to a fine powder. It reads:

Quote:

...the critical failure effect results in death. Creatures immune to void damage (such as undead) instead take acid damage. A creature slain by this hazard is reduced to a fine powder.

However, we have an Exemplar in our party (yeah, I allow PF classes in SF2e) who wants to use their feat Fish from the Falls' Edge to prevent them from dying. It reads:

Quote:

Seeing your ally fall, you let out a cry, sending your divine spark to them temporarily to keep them from tumbling down the River of Souls. You prevent the triggering creature from dying and restore 5d8 Hit Points to them...

I ruled it that because they're turned into a fine powder with a disintegration effect, and that the Exemplar wouldn't be able to have time to save them.

I always understood powder/dust effects to be an immediate, no-save death.

But my players think that because the hazard doesn't explicitly say that the PC's death can't be prevented because of being turned to dust, and the Exemplar's ability doesn't say it can't not affect targets reduced to a fine powder as some spells and effects do, that the Exemplar could step in and save them before they die.

How would you rule this? I don't want to be unfair, but I also think the hazard is meant to be unpreventable. Thoughts and help would be appreciated.

[Xenocrat]

I think you're right just based on how these abilities are usually written and the mechanics of how they work - infusing some healing into an intact body that didn't die from a death effect. We can just chalk this one up to laziness/mistake/editing space constraints.

But the Exemplar is a divine/god-like class that might have some extra special sauce. If you want to let it do a hard no-sell to all deaths you can.

[professorbeej]

Xenocrat wrote:

But the Exemplar is a divine/god-like class that might have some extra special sauce. If you want to let it do a hard no-sell to all deaths you can.

This is actually what's making me really consider letting him save her. The effect is coming from the Devourer, so there's void/divinity involved, and with it being Exemplar, I am considering the fiction so that it might be able to step in. If it were a Mystic or something, I don't think I'd be so torn.

[Claxon]

I also agree it probably shouldn't work, and is likely a death effect (even though it doesn't actually say that) and has a disintegration like effect of turning a creature to dust.

That said, it's a pretty harsh outcome.

I would ask the player and the group how they prefer to handle it. Maybe the character is saved from death, but is at dying 1 and 0 hp (changing the effect such that there is no healing, but it kept the PC from being disintegrated) could be a fair compromise. The trap was deadly, and only the divine interference of the exemplar saved them from certain death.

[Perpdepog]

I'm also inclined to agree that the hazard kills the PC in a way the exemplar can't really help with, mostly because it's outright killing them, not reducing their HP to 0.

That being said, I'm also pretty open to compromises like Claxon suggested, particularly if the party is in a time-sensitive bit of the adventure and bringing in a new character doesn't really work or make sense. Make the challenges ahead difficult in some other way, like with some long-lasting penalty or downing the PC for a time. That way you haven't got to scramble to come up with a new party member, your player isn't stuck twiddling their thumbs, and the hazard still fulfills its intended function of raising stakes and building tension.

[Driftbourne]

Empires Devoured is also a playtest adventure; some of the hazards in the playtest were known to be overturned, so I'd consider that when deciding to let them be saved. An alternative to character death I sometimes use is that they are knocked unconscious until the end of the session. That way, they can be saved, but it feels like something bad happened that could just be fixed with a quick spell or med patch.

[moosher12]

I suppose the real question would be how Fish from the Falls Edge interacts with Disintegrate in general. Because this is an important question to answer if the feat encounters that spell. I'll put in an errata request.

Perpdedog wrote:

I'm also inclined to agree that the hazard kills the PC in a way the exemplar can't really help with, mostly because it's outright killing them, not reducing their HP to 0.

The trigger is that a creature would die, not that it's HP would be reduced to 0. So it at least matches the trigger conditions.

I agree with Claxon's interpretation as a fair compromise, though. The benefit is that it's a reaction, split second. And while the person would die, you could probably contrive that the divine force held the body together to keep it from turning to dust. Whether you deny the healing or not,

[Nitrobrude]

I would say it absolutely works. Nothing in the feat or trigger says it doesn't. Breath of Life has limitations, but being a spell it can also be used as long as you have slots, spell gems/chips/scrolls/wands/whatever. Fish From The Fall's Edge lacks limitations but is only once per day and half the range. It's a feat for a single class that does what another effect does but slightly better/different. That seems to be in line with Paizo's 2e design and I'd argue very much on purpose.

Plus...from what I hear, there are many more "everyone dies" instances so, giving them this one win might help offset future disappointment with bad luck just ending things.

That said...

For a game surrounding a trait system, I'm shocked it is utilized so poorly. How simple to have a trait like...True-Death...with something along the lines of... The death of creatures caused by effects with the True-Death trait cannot be prevented by any means.

Funnily enough Disintegrate doesn't even have the normal Death trait and nothing in the spell says that the creature dies...so strictly by RAW it doesn't die when reaching 0HP...the creature is simply blasted to fine powder but otherwise...Dying as normal? Obviously I would never actually play it that way. But with translation issues, non-native speakers, strict rule lawyers, etc I could see where arguments could be made.

We see it happening here with a "you die" effect yet nothing saying it can't be prevented by strict RAW which opens up the argument of RAI.

[kaid]

Nitrobrude wrote:

I would say it absolutely works. Nothing in the feat or trigger says it doesn't. Breath of Life has limitations, but being a spell it can also be used as long as you have slots, spell gems/chips/scrolls/wands/whatever. Fish From The Fall's Edge lacks limitations but is only once per day and half the range. It's a feat for a single class that does what another effect does but slightly better/different. That seems to be in line with Paizo's 2e design and I'd argue very much on purpose.

Plus...from what I hear, there are many more "everyone dies" instances so, giving them this one win might help offset future disappointment with bad luck just ending things.

That said...

For a game surrounding a trait system, I'm shocked it is utilized so poorly. How simple to have a trait like...True-Death...with something along the lines of... The death of creatures caused by effects with the True-Death trait cannot be prevented by any means.

Funnily enough Disintegrate doesn't even have the normal Death trait and nothing in the spell says that the creature dies...so strictly by RAW it doesn't die when reaching 0HP...the creature is simply blasted to fine powder but otherwise...Dying as normal? Obviously I would never actually play it that way. But with translation issues, non-native speakers, strict rule lawyers, etc I could see where arguments could be made.

We see it happening here with a "you die" effect yet nothing saying it can't be prevented by strict RAW which opens up the argument of RAI.

haha get disintegrated would give new meaning to rub some dirt on it and walk it off as you slowly pull your ash pile back together.

[professorbeej]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. You've convinced me to let Chk Chk live (yep, she was playing the pregen, and it's glorious) thanks to the Exemplar's divinity playing off the Devourer's. Really appreciate all the discussion! Looking forward to seeing how it plays out on Tuesday evening. :D

[Nitrobrude]

kaid wrote:

haha get disintegrated would give new meaning to rub some dirt on it and walk it off as you slowly pull your ash pile back together.

Instant PC mix, just add water. Lol