Magical Knack (Trait)

[W E Ray]

My PC started with two Levels of Investigator before going Wizard. Investigator-2 / Wizard-6. Next Level at 9th I'm taking the Feat Additional Traits and am going to add the Trait, Magical Knack.

I've made similar builds before, couple Levels of Investigator or Inquisitor or something before going Wizard. By being two Levels behind in Full-Casting it makes my higher Level Wizard less absurdly broken than when he is not hampered by two Levels of something else. (There comes a time around 12th Level where my Wizard -- any Wizard built properly -- just doesn't need any other PCs, and can do the entire friggen campaign all by his lonesome self.)

Regarding Magical Knack:

At some point I got it in my head -- I think during a Play-by-Post here on The Boards (from another DM) -- that while Magical Knack will get back your missing two CLs for Duration and Range and Targets, it will not get back your missing 2d6s from your Fireballs or Lightning Bolts.

(I DM far more often than Play so it's not like I see this except maybe every 3-4 years -- and I am *Not* a Rules Lawyer or Expert -- so I really don't know if there's something I'm missing.)

My DM in this current game looked at Magical Knack (when I mentioned that I'd be taking Additional Traits "Soon" to get the extra 2 CLs for Duration and Range and such) -- and he was like, "Bro, this gives you the extra 2d6 for your Fireballs and Lightning Bolts, too."

But I promised I'd look it up because I thought it couldn't.
(It kinda reminded me of that thing in your CMD calculation where lots of folks don't know you get your Dodge Feat and your Ring of Protection Deflection Bonus because of a layout blunder in The Core.) .... I am wondering if there is a similar line of text out in the vastness of canon (of Caster Level and Magic) that disallows me to also get those two extra d6s on Lightning Bolt and Fireball (etc.) from a Trait Bonus or whatever.

So,...
Uh,...

Does anyone know?

Big THANKS! in advance

[Java Man]

I have never heard (and can find no reason to think so) of magical knack (or any other CL booster) not increasing damage.

[Oli Ironbar]

W E Ray wrote:

My PC started with two Levels of Investigator before going Wizard. Investigator-2 / Wizard-6. Next Level at 9th I'm taking the Feat Additional Traits and am going to add the Trait, Magical Knack.

Make sure you are retraining your lvl 1 feat for that. Pretty sure it is only available then.

Edit: And yes, you boom more boom.

[Belafon]

Anything that is affected by Caster Level is affected

Range, duration, number of targets, number of damage dice, bonuses from scaling buff spells, SR checks, concentration checks, you name it.

Spoiler:

What may have gotten stuck in your head is that it does not get back your lost spell levels (your Investigator 2/Wizard 7 will still only be able to cast 4th-level wizard spells even though the CL is 9). Several times other people have made that mistake and had it corrected on the message boards, so maybe that got confused with damage dice in your memory?

[Tom Sampson]

Magical Knack increases your caster level by 2 for all intents and purposes, unless your caster level would exceed your hit dice. That includes the damage dice on fireballs and lightning bolts. The only thing the increase in caster level does not count for is progressing your spells per day for spellcasting.

And on a side note, you do indeed get your dodge bonuses and deflection bonus added to your CMD.

[Dasrak]

W E Ray wrote:

At some point I got it in my head -- I think during a Play-by-Post here on The Boards (from another DM) -- that while Magical Knack will get back your missing two CLs for Duration and Range and Targets, it will not get back your missing 2d6s from your Fireballs or Lightning Bolts.

I don't know why you'd think that. Magical Knack raises your caster level, and the number of damage dice you get is based on your caster level.

Now, there is some ambiguity about how this would stack with other caster level bonuses. For instance, if you also had an Orange Prism Ioun stone, which one is applied first? If Magical Knack is applied first if you're a Wizard 10/Investigator 2, you go from 10->12, then the ioun stone raises you to 13. However, if the ioun stone applies first then Magical Knack's cap kicks in and you cap out at 12.

[W E Ray]

Thanks!

Most likely it was a case where a DM in PbP just said to me, 'Hey, you won't get the extra damage dice,' and I just figured it was the RAW without looking. (It's his campaign; he's the DM!)

So here I'm glad I get the extra damage dice!

[Azothath]

Belafon has it
extra traits can be okay but you have to watch the type of trait. RAW says one of each type or all of one type using exemplar.

for arcane casters it's usually a choice between; magical lineage(-1 Metamag), wayang spellhunter(-1 Metamag), [resilient, deathtouched, heart of clay, life of toil, iron liver, secret revolutionary, spirit animal](+1 Fort or more), [deft dodger, xa hoi soldier, disciplined body, spirit animal](+1 Rflx or better)

[glass]

Oli Ironbar wrote:

Make sure you are retraining your lvl 1 feat for that. Pretty sure it is only available then.

Since it has no prerequisites, I am pretty sure it is available any time you get a feat slot. What am I missing that suggests otherwise?

Tom Sampson wrote:

The only thing the increase in caster level does not count for is progressing your spells per day for spellcasting.

It also doesn't count for spells known (or anything else which is a function of class level rather than caster level).

Dasrak wrote:

Now, there is some ambiguity about how this would stack with other caster level bonuses. For instance, if you also had an Orange Prism Ioun stone, which one is applied first? If Magical Knack is applied first if you're a Wizard 10/Investigator 2, you go from 10->12, then the ioun stone raises you to 13. However, if the ioun stone applies first then Magical Knack's cap kicks in and you cap out at 12.

I would argue that if you count the ioun stone first, you are applying Magical Knack's cap to the stone. But the stone's bonus should not be capped, only MK's. So you should apply the stone's bonus after applying the cap (for a final CL of 13 in the case of the example).

However, I agree that it could be better spelled out.

[Dragonchess Player]

I think when applying stackable bonuses, the order is character-based bonuses (species, class, feats) before magical bonuses (spell/spell-like ability effects, magic items)... I don't remember if it is explicitly spelled out in the RAW, however.

[Diego Rossi]

I would apply "permanent" bonuses (like Magical Knack) first, temporary, like an Orange Prism ioun stone, last.
AFAIK, how it works isn't spelled out in the rules.

[Melkiador]

In general, the game is intended to be designed in such a way where the order shouldn't matter. In this case, it's less about the bonus than the cap on the bonus. While I don't expect an official answer, I doubt the intention was for an ioun stone to not "stack" with a trait like this.

[Tom Sampson]

If the caster level bonus from Magical Knack would cause your total caster level to exceed your hit dice, even if that happens as a consequence of also having other caster level bonuses, Magical Knack does nothing, unfortunately. The RAW does not have a "bonus stacking order" that allows you to say "magical knack is done counting whether the caster level exceeds your hit dice and you can apply other caster level bonuses to take it further now." Instead, all it cares about is whether this bonus raises your caster level above your hit dice, and that caster level would include all caster level bonuses. It is a very reasonable house rule to have Magical Knack be applied first and allow other bonuses to carry it beyond your hit dice, however.

It is also worth noting that, as written, the Bard's Inspire Greatness performance, which provides 2 additional, temporary hit dice to affected creatures, would allow someone with caster level equal to their character level to nevertheless raise their caster level by 2 through the Magical Knack trait.

There is, however, some RAW hair-splitting that can allow Magical Knack to stack with effects that allow you to cast as though your caster level were higher (since those effects do not technically constitute caster level bonuses or increases), for an effective caster level exceeding your hit dice. A GM may nevertheless rule otherwise, of course.