Incapacitation vs Improving Success

[shroudb]

I don't think there's a rule for it (or if it is, I've missed it) but what do you people think is the order of operation if:

you are using an Incapacitation ability but you also have something that increases success to critical success and you roll a success vs a higher level enemy?

Would the order of operation be:
success->failure due to incap-> you don't improve anything since you no longer have a success
or
success->critical success->back to success due to incap

it is very fringe scenario, for my case, it only came up in theorycrafting a fan dancer+talisman dabbler, but maybe there are more cases for it.

[Finoan]

I'm also not aware of any ordering rule in this case. The only ordering rule I am aware of for degree of success changes is in the nat-1/nat-20 rule.

Quote:

Certain abilities can change the degree of success on a roll. When resolving such an ability, apply the adjustment from a natural 20 or natural 1 before anything else.

But that wouldn't apply here or give any indication of which of these degree of success changes should happen first.

[graystone]

You have to get to Step 4: Determine the Degree of Success for both effects to take place, so it's up to the DM on what order to apply them. Myself, I'd apply Incapacitation second so both effects actually take place and cancel each other out.

[Claxon]

graystone wrote:

You have to get to Step 4: Determine the Degree of Success for both effects to take place, so it's up to the DM on what order to apply them. Myself, I'd apply Incapacitation second so both effects actually take place and cancel each other out.

Yeah, I'd probably have the effects cancel out too.

Assuming the unadjusted roll qualified for the PCs ability, I'd effectively say Incapacitation cancels out the PC ability.

[SuperParkourio]

The only abilites I'm aware of that improve your own degree of success do so only if you are the defender. For instance, a high level wizard that succeeds on their saving throw gets a critical success instead.

Do you have any example of an incapacitation ability that could conflict with another degree changing effect?

[shroudb]

SuperParkourio wrote:

The only abilites I'm aware of that improve your own degree of success do so only if you are the defender. For instance, a high level wizard that succeeds on their saving throw gets a critical success instead.

Do you have any example of an incapacitation ability that could conflict with another degree changing effect?

Yeah, as I said in my OP, the thing that popped that question in my mind was when I was theorycrafting a Talisman dabbler Fan Dancer.

There are talismans that turn success to crit success for Performance and Incapacitation Performances.

As another general example, the Sash of Prowess also turns Acrobatics and Athletic Successes to Crit Success once per day. Edit: Sleeper Hold is an Athletics check with Incapacitation on it.

Not sure if there are other examples, but this one was the one that brought it to my attention.

[Trip.H]

Well, the text "if you roll a success" is actually a functional specific override in this case. Assuming the ability does *not* say something like "the outcome is a success" then "rolling a success" RaW does not even check the actual save outcome, only the roll.

If you rolled a success, that talisman would up it to a crit.

Incap then kicks in to give the subject of the incap effect one degree better, lowering back down to reg success.
(though there is room for GM fiat to have the talisman trump and ignore Incap entierly, but I don't think that would be an appropriate ruling)

If the phrasing is different, and doesn't check specifically for the roll's success, then GM fiat would be much more relevant for both to kick in.