Elf step lets you step twice for one action.
Liturgist gives you: "Dancing Invocation (9th) The movement of your body grants power to your magic. When you Leap, Step, or Tumble Through, you also Sustain an apparition spell or vessel spell."
Would this allow you to sustain two apparition spells or vessel spells for one action as long as you use Elf Step?
Yes.
I've looked this supposedly overpowered combination. It seems Paizo balanced it on the backend by making not many great sustainable apparition spells and you can only have one vessel spell for your primary apparition at a time. So to cast two, you'd have to switch from your primary apparition to different primary apparition to gain a new vessel spell to cast, which can be done the feat allowing you to quickly change an apparition. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to cast them both then sustain them, then after that you are locked into elf stepping nearly every round to keep them both up and then use them which often costs actions.
Let's just say with nearly every combo, it's a whole lot of hoops to jump through to get a minor benefit.
From what I can see the juice is no worth the squeeze.
Is there a reason you couldn't burn two focus points to cast Earth's Bile twice, then each round thereafter sustain both?
Also, there are focus spells that let you stride or leap when you sustain them. Does that mean you could:
1a: Earth's Bile
1a: Circle of Spirits
1a: River Carving Mountains
1a: Elf Step
- Step, Sustain Earth's Bile for damage
- Step, Sustain River Carving Mountains
- Stride
2a: Cast a regular spell
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The current RAW is yes, Dancing Invocation modifies all Step, Leap, and Tumble Through actions so that they also sustain one active Apparition spell or Vessel spell. This means that using Elf Step would sustain two of them.
I think this ability is quite a bit too powerful, and this type of interaction in one of the several reasons why.
For Vessel Spells, there is a limit of only casting or sustaining one instance of any spell each round, and only once each round. You can't cast multiple of the same Vessel focus spell, and you can't sustain the same spell more than once per round.
Apparition spells have no such restriction. They cost a spell slot, but you can cast them without other restrictions than their spell slot cost and action cost. Being able to sustain them easier makes a character with Dancing Invocation much more powerful than one without it. Being able to sustain more than one of them with one action is even worse.
There are many Apparition spells that have a sustained duration. More than a few that might be useful in combat.
* Laughing Fit
* Hypnotize
* Vibrant Pattern
* Dancing Fountain
* Whirlpool
* Wrathful Storm
* Invoke Spirits
* Mislead
* Vacuum
* Punishing Winds
* Aqueous Orb
* Frost Pillar
* Hungry Depths
* Implosion
* Quandary
* Field of Life
* Lifewood Cage
* Telekinetic Hand
* Figment
Any two of these could be sustained with Elf Step and Dancing Invocation. Or sustain one of them along with a Vessel spell.
A Witness to Ancient Battles Animist at level 9+ can sustain both Embodiment of battle, Invoke Spirits, and move 10 feet without provoking reactions. For one action.
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Is there a reason you couldn't burn two focus points to cast Earth's Bile twice, then each round thereafter sustain both?
There is.
Because vessel spells are a manifestation of a specific apparition, an animist can't cast or Sustain a specific vessel spell in the same round they have already cast or Sustained it (for example, an animist who has cast earth's bile during their turn can't then cast or Sustain another instance of earth's bile during that same turn).
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Does that mean you could:
1a: Earth's Bile
1a: Circle of Spirits
1a: River Carving Mountains1a: Elf Step
- Step, Sustain Earth's Bile for damage
- Step, Sustain River Carving Mountains
- Stride
2a: Cast a regular spell
Yes, that works.
In fact, you forgot the subordinate action Stride that also happens when you first cast River Carving Mountains in your first turn.
The current RAW is yes, Dancing Invocation modifies all Step, Leap, and Tumble Through actions so that they also sustain one active Apparition spell or Vessel spell. This means that using Elf Step would sustain two of them.
I think this ability is quite a bit too powerful, and this type of interaction in one of the several reasons why.
For Vessel Spells, there is a limit of only casting or sustaining one instance of any spell each round, and only once each round. You can't cast multiple of the same Vessel focus spell, and you can't sustain the same spell more than once per round.
Apparition spells have no such restriction. They cost a spell slot, but you can cast them without other restrictions than their spell slot cost and action cost. Being able to sustain them easier makes a character with Dancing Invocation much more powerful than one without it. Being able to sustain more than one of them with one action is even worse.
There are many Apparition spells that have a sustained duration. More than a few that might be useful in combat.
* Laughing Fit
* Hypnotize
* Vibrant Pattern
* Dancing Fountain
* Whirlpool
* Wrathful Storm
* Invoke Spirits
* Mislead
* Vacuum
* Punishing Winds
* Aqueous Orb
* Frost Pillar
* Hungry Depths
* Implosion
* Quandary
* Field of Life
* Lifewood Cage
* Telekinetic Hand
* FigmentAny two of these could be sustained with Elf Step and Dancing Invocation. Or sustain one of them along with a Vessel spell.
A Witness to Ancient Battles Animist at level 9+ can sustain both Embodiment of battle, Invoke Spirits, and move 10 feet without provoking reactions. For one action.
Look at this list. You either have spells so high level few will see them or spells that aren't so good.
At high level, any caster with effortless concentration can sustain two spells just as easily or easier.
I've spent a lot of time trying to spec an animist that would outperform a sorc or other caster in similar situations at higher level and it doesn't work out so well. They have very narrow power that requires you focus.
Liturgist is the only powerful practice. If you don't take it, you won't even be close to the power casters. If you do take it and have some system mastery, you'll sort of end up ok but still more limited than a sorc or cleric.
The earth bile blaster build is pretty good, but only overpowered if you allow the persistent damage to get the damage bonus which some DMs might allow and others won't since Persistent is a condition and not damage caused by the caster during casting or sustain.
The forest reach one has some good melee builds. Still won't outdamage a high damage martial like a fighter, rogue, or giant barb. It has some good utility and control builds.
I couldn't find a way to break the double sustain with Elf Step with any consistency in an easy to set up manner. If you get some time every battle, you can maybe do it. It's a whole lot of set up and tinkering to do what other classes do far more easily.
Which is why the animist probably isn't played a ton. It's a bit like the Thaumaturge. There are certain times you might feel really strong, but most of the time you're jumping through a lot of hoops just to do the same damage or effectiveness as some class that starts swinging or casting with little to no set up.
That's why I'd let someone use the double elf step sustain. See if they could make it useful often enough that it overshadows other classes like a starlit span magus, sorc, two-handed fighter or barb, cleric, bard, or some other power class that hits the same ability button over and over again to be highly effective.
Thanks for all the insight folks! I was building an NPC animist for funsies and I thought it sounded too good to be true. Glad to see it's just a cool feature that might come in handy once in a while.
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You either have spells so high level few will see them or spells that aren't so good.
The example that I listed is at level 9. When you first get the Dancing Invocation ability and when you can first cast Invoke Spirits.
Even if there is only one spell that combos into an overpowered scenario, then that is a balance problem.
Liturgist is the only powerful practice. If you don't take it, you won't even be close to the power casters.
A 'must pick' is still a balance problem.
Yes, a different balance problem than what we are discussing previously. But it is one of the other major balance problems that I have with this Liturgist ability.
The issue is as much that the other practices are too narrow as it is that Liturgist is the strongest. If Medium had an actual incentive to use relinqius control before level 17, if seer wasn't hyper specialized, and if Shaman wasn't just trying to be discount witch, you'd see other practices.
You either have spells so high level few will see them or spells that aren't so good.The example that I listed is at level 9. When you first get the Dancing Invocation ability and when you can first cast Invoke Spirits.
Even if there is only one spell that combos into an overpowered scenario, then that is a balance problem.
Liturgist is the only powerful practice. If you don't take it, you won't even be close to the power casters.A 'must pick' is still a balance problem.
Yes, a different balance problem than what we are discussing previously. But it is one of the other major balance problems that I have with this Liturgist ability.
I think the animist needs more work. I liked the Medium Practice, but the sustain without the Liturgist you go from "This looks too good to be true" to "This looks too bad to be true." It's this class that needs another polishing as it's not a very fluid class to play. It's all over the place trying to be everything, but only someone with good system mastery will be able to find a great path to use. That's why a few players with experience have made the class shine, but players that want a fun class to play that works will not find it in the animist. You need to know how to make the animist shine to make the class work as its power is narrow, very narrow.
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To answer the OP: yes, that is how it works RAW, and contrary to what one or two people might be suggesting in this thread, it really is a huge power boost. Although you can't Sustain two separate instances of earth's bile, you can effectively use earth's bile as a free action whenever you Cast a Spell with Maneuvering Step, and Elf Step also lets you Sustain an additional spell (I'd also point out that Feather Step is a 1st-level general feat that lets you Step into difficult terrain if that ever gives you trouble). This can lead to other combos like witness to ancient battles into devouring dark form which, while requiring a lengthier-than-average setup for a battle form, does mean you can end up Sustaining both spells with a single action, which also lets you make a Strike as part of that same action, while also having better Strike accuracy than most martials. For comparison, Skirmish Strike is a feat available only at 10th level at the earliest to anyone who's not a Ranger or Rogue, which only lets you Step and Strike once in its action, which also has the flourish trait, and which is altogether considered very, very strong.