Bear with me here. (Rawr)
I had no idea how to properly title this, or which forum to place it in. Also, a leading disclaimer, I KNOW spellcasters don't need more goodies.
I had this idea while reading some old caster building guides.
What if, when acquiring new spells known, you could "progress" a lower level spell to one higher in the same family/chain? Then, instead of learning a brand new spell of your highest available level, you learn a new spell of the level of the one that just "grew up".
An easy go to example would be the Summon Monster X line of spells. If you have SM I, and you've just unlocked 3rd level spells, you could "progress" SM I to SM III, and then learn a new 1st level spell instead.
Other examples include various Fog spells, the polymorph chains, the Pit spells, etc. Basically subject to GM approval, but definitely including any spells with the language "this spell functions as [insert lesser spell name here] with the following exceptions/additions/differences".
Obviously this is most useful for spontaneous casters. It just feels somehow more organic to me than the limited "lose a spell and learn a new one" that is in place now. I'm unsure if this idea I have would be an upgrade, a lateral shift, or somehow a penalty. Would it be too strong to just add to spontaneous casters? Should it require a feat or a class feature alternate option? I can see how sometimes you may still just want to lose dud spells.
Thematically I could even see this working for prepared casters who aquire their spells through various mystical bonds (Witches, Shaman, etc.) It becomes trickier with spellbook classes like Wizards without just being a straight bonus to number of spells learned at leveling; and would likely be broken when adding spells outside of level up.
One other potential drawback I foresee is, if you progress a lower level spell you like to use frequently, you'll have fewer spell slots per day to cast it in it's progressed level.
So here, would it be useful to have some sort of feat/option that allows you to cast a lower level precursor of a higher level spell? For instance, say you've "progressed" Lightning Bolt up to Chain Lightning, but you still wish to cast Lightning bolt from time to time. Should this require an additional resource/opportunity cost (i.e. a feat, meta magic, or swapped feature), or would it be too strong to have that option baked in to the "progression" mechanics?
Pros to this: it feels like a better character/story mechanic, this would theoretically shrink the Wizard vs. Sorcerer gap a tiny bit, this would also penalize spontaneous casters build choices less for campaign where you don't know to what level you're playing.
Cons: New rules confusion, GM arbitration discrepancies, potential unneeded Wizard boost (but honestly, only a little saved gold/time)
I haven't made any solid rules on this, and I'm more curious how this might affect the game in general. That said, sorry if this should be in Advice or Home Brew. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks all :)
I'm soooo bad with titles. This could also have been called "spell upgrading" . . . . *sigh*
The problem is there are other than summon monster spells there are not enough spell chains to make this work. The Pit spells start at 2nd level and only go to 5th level. The Fog spells are also limited. Lightning Bolt and Chain lighting are very different spells with different tactical advantages. Many of the fog spells also have different tactical usage.
Psychic casters have something like this with Undercasting a spell:
Rule
I think you have a lot of room between you and your GM (or player if you are running).
Prepared arcane have their spell books that come preconfigured, perhaps there are spontaneous casters who have mastered undercasting different spell paths that a character could learn (because, let’s be real, the Human FCB changes the feel of being a spontaneous class altogether anyways, why not open the class up and add roleplay?).
Mysterious Stranger wrote: The problem is there are other than summon monster spells there are not enough spell chains to make this work. The Pit spells start at 2nd level and only go to 5th level. The Fog spells are also limited. Lightning Bolt and Chain lighting are very different spells with different tactical advantages. Many of the fog spells also have different tactical usage. I think you may misapprehend my intent. For this proposal, the number of spells in a chain, what level that chain starts at, or how tactically similar they are doesn't matter. The last part could affect the GM call, I suppose.
The point here is to allow a character to "progress/grow/upgrade" signature spells of their build without being stuck with numerous lower level spells they are unlikely to use and loosing out on versatility.
Right now, say a player really wants to work with Invisibility. At lower levels, they took Vanish, but now Invisibility is available. By normal rules, if they want Invisibility, then Vanish is stuck on the character as a redundant spell. My proposal would give the player the chance to turn Vanish into Invisibility, and then replace it with a new same level spell. Basically expanding/improving spell retraining on level up for every time you aquire new levels of spells.
This makes story sense to me. If you're a caster, wouldn't the spells you have learned and used for the longest part of your career be the ones you are most adept with? This would reflect that growing power.
Oli Ironbar wrote: Psychic casters have something like this with Undercasting a spell:
Rule
I think you have a lot of room between you and your GM (or player if you are running).
Prepared arcane have their spell books that come preconfigured, perhaps there are spontaneous casters who have mastered undercasting different spell paths that a character could learn (because, let’s be real, the Human FCB changes the feel of being a spontaneous class altogether anyways, why not open the class up and add roleplay?).
Oh my gosh! Oli!! You're a genius, and I'm an idjut. I read that exact rule somewhere in the last few weeks and didn't process it. It must have been bubbling in my subconscious. This is basically, exactly what I'm talking about. The only addition would be adding it to spell chains that aren't numbered.
What would it take to make an option like this for other spontaneous casters? Would it need the weight of a feat, feat chain, or archetype? Or could this just be tacked on without unbalancing those classes?
Edit: What about the Human FCB changes the feel of spontaneous casters? I know it expands their repertoire, but they're still way more limited in spell variety than prepared casters in most standard campaigns.
I understand what you are proposing but I still think the number of spells that this will work with are extremely low. That makes this less optimal than it should be.
For a prepared arcane caster it does not matter because they have no limit on the number of spells they can learn. Having duplicate spells for an arcane prepared caster is no hardship and can even have some benefits. Being able to use lower-level spells for item creation feats can be helpful. Divine prepared casters already know every spell on their list so have no need of this.
So, this system is only really matters to spontaneous casters. Spontaneous caster already can exchange a limited number of spells as they level up. The level after they gain a new spell level all spontaneous casters can swap out any spell of that is at least one level lower than the new spell level they just gained. This repeats again each time they gain the next level after gaining a new spell level. There is no reason the character that took vanish as a first level spell cannot use this to replace it when he gets invisibility.
The existing system is superior to what you are proposing because it allows the character to replace a spell that has become useless with any spell he wants. Using systems at the same time makes spontaneous caters too powerful. One of the main differences between prepared casters and spontaneous casters is that the spontaneous caster has an extremely limited selection of spells but can spam out those spells all day long.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: I understand what you are proposing but I still think the number of spells that this will work with are extremely low. That makes this less optimal than it should be.
Detect Magic --> Identify --> Analyze Dweomer; Ghost sound --> Each level's Image spell; Lullaby --> Sleep --> Deep Slumber; Mage Hand --> Unseen Servant? --> Telekinesis --> Each Hand Spell; Mending --> Make Whole; Message --> Whispering Wind --> Sending; Open/Close --> Knock; Prestidigitation --> Lesser Wish --> Wish; Charm Person --> Charm Monster; Dominate Person --> Dom Monster; Comprehend Languages --> Tongues; Any Lesser --> Base --> Greater Lines; the Cure --> Heal and/or Mass Cures and Inflict --> Harm and/or Mass Inflicts chains; Disguise Self --> Alter Self --> Polymorph??; Feather Fall --> Levitate --> Fly --> Overland Flight; All of the Summon X# chains and Form of X# or XShape# chains; Blur --> Displacement; Vanish --> Invisibility --> Invisibility Sphere --> Greater Invisibility --> Mislead??; Any base spell --> base, Mass; Daze --> Daze Monster; Detect Thoughts --> Telepathy; Hypnotism --> Enthrall or Hypnotic Pattern?? --> Rainbow Pattern; Cause Fear --> Scare--> Fear; Light --> ? --> Daylight; Mount --> Phantom Steed; Dimension Door --> Teleport --> Planar Shift??; Hold Person --> Hold Monster; Tiny Hut --> Secure Shelter; Silence --> Zone of Silence; Hallucinatory Terrain --> Mirage Arcana; Mirror Image --> Mislead? --> Project Image; Seeming --> Veil
That's just from the Bard spell list in the CRB. Obviously some of these chains would be open to debate, but there are plenty of spells that qualify in the lesser/greater, base/mass, #s, or "works like" language categories.
So, assuming this option was allowed at all, even a player in a stricter group would still have numerous choices for upgradeable spells; or possibly gain an UnderCasting option.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
So, this system is only really matters to spontaneous casters. Spontaneous caster already can exchange a limited number of spells as they level up. The level after they gain a new spell level all spontaneous casters can swap out any spell of that is at least one level lower than the new spell level they just gained. This repeats again each time they gain the next level after gaining a new spell level. There is no reason the character that took vanish as a first level spell cannot use this to replace it when he gets invisibility.
The existing system is superior to what you are proposing because it allows the character to replace a spell that has become useless with any spell he wants. Using systems at the same time makes spontaneous caters too powerful. One of the main differences between prepared casters and spontaneous casters is that the spontaneous caster has an extremely limited selection of spells but can spam out those spells all day long.
My proposed system would most likely be an addition to rather than a replacement of the current one. But, let's look at it either way.
For Sorcerer, at least, the level where they get to swap out just one spell know is on the even levels starting at 4. So the levels where a Sorcerer gains a new spell level, and the swap levels, are actually the same. However, because the replaced spell must come from those already known, it will obviously/necessarily be no higher level than the new maximum spell level minus one. This allows for only 9 swapped spells over the entirety of a Sorcerer's career; and, as is pointed out so frequently, campaigns rarely make it to higher level play.
So if current mechanics and my proposal are treated as mutually exclusive, under original rules: Sorcerer has Vanish as a Lv. 1 spell, achieves level four, takes Lv. 2 spell Invisibility, chooses to lose Vanish, and replaces it with a new Lv. 1 spell. Woo! Mission accomplished. However, until a few more levels are gained, Sorcerer has fewer times to become invisible per day (albeit at greater durations). If he wants to wait to do this later he potentially misses out on a swap, and will likely have higher level spells competing for the same option.
Under my proposal: Sorcerer has Vanish and gains access to 2nd Lv. spells, has the option to let spells "upgrade" and chooses to upgrade to Invisibility, now Vanish vanishes (:P) and is replaced with a new 1st Lv. spell. So far, different semantics for the same effect. Ergo, the current system is not superior.
With my proposal, Sorcerer gains more options. If he also has Feather Fall and wishes to let it "upgrade" to Levitate, he may do so at the same level as he upgrades Vanish, or wait until a different level to do so. This allows for potentially 40 or more spell swaps over the course of a Sorcerer's career assuming they select nothing but "upgradeable" spells, more with fuller chains.
However, since for this scenario the systems are exclusive, you could be stuck with a useless spell if you have a lemon choice as well as redundant "upgradeable" spells. If you wanted to get rid of Magic Aura and upgrade Vanish, you couldn't do both. Technically, if you can't find a chain for a spell, you could get stuck with many useless lower level spells, but that's also true in the original system.
This is why I suggest my proposal be an addition to the current system. If you have both options available, you take away one of the harsher penalties of being a spontaneous caster. Being allowed to upgrade spells when you level removes the forced choice of waiting for key spell options until higher levels you may not see, or being stuck with weak or redundant spells on your limited list when you aquire higher level spells. Still being able to lose one spell known for another every few levels helps to weed out bad spell choices, or merely those that are no longer viable.
I do understand that this would be a power upgrade to Spontaneous casters, but I don't see it as too powerful. Prepared casters still have the advantage of deity or the "almighty" spell book. My proposal does nothing to change the number of spells a spontaneous caster knows, so the "god wizard" still wins on spell versatility with proper prep time. The prepared casters also still have the ability to aquire spells known during regular game play, whereas spontaneous still only happens at level up. And, prepared casters still gain higher level slots before spontaneous keeping them ahead of the power curve for ~40% of the game.
I see this as perhaps closing the gap a tiny bit, maybe even putting putting prepared and spontaneous on even footing. Prepared wins in versatility and early access, as well as most crafting. Spontaneous avoids the pit falls of dead or delayed prepared spells, but still has to work with a reduced spell list for their spamming.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Using systems at the same time makes spontaneous caters too powerful. One of the main differences between prepared casters and spontaneous casters is that the spontaneous caster has an extremely limited selection of spells but can spam out those spells all day long.
I do see where this could become too slanted towards spontaneous casting.
I think the proposal as I've laid it out in the above posts should be okay; but I'm still open to analysis or critiques if someone can help me understand the numbers better.
The fly in the ointment, is when I latched on to the UnderCasting mechanic. If this was a freebie as well (not part of my original proposal or intent) then a Sorcerer could go from 43 (minus bloodlines) spells known over the course of a career to theoretically 705.
Now, obviously that requires the most permissive interpretation of spell chains, and a theory crafted build of nothing but upgradeable spells chosen with complete every level chains. But still, that's insane! The only edge a Wizard would have left would be in access to non-upgradeable spells, spellbook additions, and early spell level access. There are literally thousands of spells in Pathfinder, but even for a ridiculously theory crafted Wizard, that number of spells is stupidly unlikely, and negligible if the Sorcerer is breaking into the hundreds.
This does make me wonder how Psychics compare to prepared casters now. The UnderCasting mechanic has a much narrower defined list of spells. How many spells in theory get added to their total spells known count?
If limited to some reasonable number of spells, and weighted with a few hefty pre-reqs, could access to UnderCasting still be reasonable for feats? Or is this more archetype territory? Or is it so powerful that either it's Mythic, or "upgrades" and "UnderCasting" are mutually exclusive?
While these options are definitely more powerful for spontaneous casters, with some type of earlier/easier access for prepared casters, I could see these feats as being useful time/money/spellbook space savers for them.
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Note: You could also look at the Words of Power alternate rules for ideas.
Essentially, the Words of Power allows the caster to apply different target/area and/or "meta" (alterations to other spell details) characteristics to the base effect when preparing spells (as a prepared caster) or when casting spells (as a spontaneous caster).
Wordspells are generally less "powerful" than many equivalent "normal" spells, but the system can be more effective in some situations if someone invests some time in learning how to use it. For example, the summoning words are standard actions instead of full round actions and Words of Power makes it easier to combine effects in a single spell.
Sysryke wrote: This allows for only 9 swapped spells over the entirety of a Sorcerer's career; and, as is pointed out so frequently, campaigns rarely make it to higher level play.
Between this and the 700+ known spells for full Sorcerer, I would say this falls under the ‘work with your GM’. Maybe there is a campaign based aspect that allows you to learn a limited number of chains, or maybe you can only change your chains at certain points along the campaign.
Having the GM hold one end of the rope allows you to experiment with a new system while you play, but also not have to plan ahead for every situation the new system could become broken.
adding a cross-connected(or non-exclusive) hierarchy to the spells would be complex. Why not just stick with the same school and descriptors allowing one descriptor change per spell level decrease after the first spell level?
You'd just have to ensure the right →descriptors← are on the spells for your game. Converting some keywords like Cure, Monster, Nature, Space, Interdimensional, Void, Chaos(chaódis/anarchic), Neutrality(fysikós/aptus), Law(nómimos/axiomatic), Good(kalosýni/bonum), Neutral(oudéteros/rectus), Evil(kakía/malum), Positive(anáptyxi/zoí), Negative(diálysi/nekrós), etc would define and constrain the relationships more than arcane school.
Example:
Knowing Sonic Thrust:K5 evokation [sonic], you could cast a K4[sonic] or a K3[fire], but not a K3[darkness, light].
They did this in the Rolemaster system. when you learned a spell, you actually learned a "list" of a spell, and based upon your level and how much mana you pumped into the spell, you gained higher level effects of the spell.
For instance, if you were 5th level, you would know the whole lightning bolt list, all 1-20, steps of it, but you could only cast the first 5 steps, and you topped out at spending 5 mana, so, if you wanted a small lighting effect, you could spend 2 mana,getting the 2nd level effect, or go for broke and spend 5. (you could only spend as much mana on a spell as your level)
All this is doing is making an already strong and versatile class even stronger and more versatile. This will negatively affect game balance by lessening a deliberate weakness of a powerful class. The system reminds me of an old Dilbert carton where Dilbert comes up with an invention that will eliminate planned obsolescence.
Ah, but planned obsolescence is a terrible thing!
I'm well aware that when comparing a full caster class to most of the rest of the classes in the game, the caster is always considered to be more powerful. As I said in the OP, I know casters don't need more goodies.
The point of this idea was to address the disparity between prepared versus spontaneous casters. By preference, I generally prefer to be spontaneous. However, as much as I enjoy that mechanic, I'm also aware that as the classes currently stand, over time the prepared classes pull farther ahead. The theoretical reliability of a spontaneous caster is nowhere near as strong as the theoretical versatility of the prepared. I don't mind one class being stronger than the other in certain areas, but I don't like them being lopsided.
This isn't meant to be Sorcerer vs. Wizard, but those are the easiest examples here. Bloodlines are fantastic, they're what makes Pathfinder Sorcerers fun and worth playing. This feature balances well against the Wizard's Arcane Bond, School specialties, and bonus feats. However, if you strip away all the extras from both sides, then you have to look at just casting vs. casting. Prepared gets earlier entry, equal or nearly numbers of spell slots at odd levels, and an ever expanding variety of spells known. Spontaneous gets more spell slots (probably) at even levels, and the ability to cast whatever they know.
They are close, I grant you, but the scales still tip prepared. I don't want to nerf the prepared casters, I just want a little more boost for the spontaneous so that the mechanical cost of the choice is more of a trade off and less a tolerable loss.
UnderCasting I now see is too strong paired with much of anything else. There's already a bloodline that picks up some variant of this, and it's considered pretty powerful. So, what about just the "upgrade" idea, specifically as an addition to the normal spell retraining. You keep the ability to lose outlived or useless spells and gain new ones, but you also gain the choice to let spells grow into more powerful versions of higher levels accepting the opportunity cost of fewer available uses per day. Either way, your total spells known stays locked in. This bit of on level up versatility should in no way threaten prepared casters every day versatility.
well, I think you are assuming that access to *more* spells or simply more spells is the answer.
My method trades some power for more flexibility. It does require you to comb over the spells adding descriptors to constrain the recursive permutations. I think adding some descriptors is a sensible thing to do anyway. Some schools like Shadow, Darkness, Void, etc need help.
If you ask me about overall balance, I don't see spell access or spell volume as the problem, they are pretty good as is.
Tweaking skill points into automatic class skills, scaling weapon proficiency with level, fixing weapon groups, and scaling or tweaking some feats is more the answer. IMO you're barking up the wrong tree.
The advantage of the prepared caster over the spontaneous caster is mostly illusion. In theory the prepared caster can reconfigure his spell selection to meet any challenge. The reality of that is usually not anywhere close to the theory. For that to happen requires the prepared caster to know what they are facing and not have any surprises. While that situation can occasionally come up in a game it is extremely rare. In fact, it is more common for a prepared caster to have made poor choices and end up with an extremely week selection of spells.
In addition, spontaneous casters get more spells per day than prepared casters. The prepared caster does get access to higher level spells earlier, but when it comes to casting more spells, the advantage is with the spontaneous caster. Even when it comes to casting total spell levels the spontaneous caster has the advantage in almost all cases. Comparing a sorcerer and a wizard the sorcerer can cast more spells at every level except for 5th. At 5th level both sorcerer and wizard can cast 5 spells. When it comes to total spell levels cast per day the sorcerer gets more at every level except 3rd, 5th and 7th. At 3rd and 5th, the wizard has the advantage and at 7th they are equal at 30 total spell levels. These numbers include the wizard’s specialist slot but do not include high casting stat. At 12th level the sorcerer can cast 32 spells per day with a total spell level of 103, the wizard can cast 26 spells with a total spell level of 84. That is a significant advantage.
Some races get extra spells knows as a FCB, while the wizard gets extra spells in their book. The sorcerer FCB is way better than what a wizard gets. When you factor in that and the bloodline spell a sorcerer can end up with 8 spells known per spell level. Spontaneous casters also have access to magic items that can allow them to add spells to their known spell list. Mnemonic Vestment is cheap and incredibly useful. Pages of spell knowledge.
What it comes down to is not that spontaneous casters are less powerful, but rather their play style is different. Sorcerers are not wizards despite having the same spell list. When you try and run a sorcerer like a wizard they will not do well. But if you play the class like it is intended, they do just fine.
Azothath wrote: well, I think you are assuming that access to *more* spells or simply more spells is the answer.
My method trades some power for more flexibility. It does require you to comb over the spells adding descriptors to constrain the recursive permutations. I think adding some descriptors is a sensible thing to do anyway. Some schools like Shadow, Darkness, Void, etc need help.
If you ask me about overall balance, I don't see spell access or spell volume as the problem, they are pretty good as is.
Tweaking skill points into automatic class skills, scaling weapon proficiency with level, fixing weapon groups, and scaling or tweaking some feats is more the answer. IMO you're barking up the wrong tree.
Could you explain your method a bit more clearly? You use some abbreviations and/or notations that I'm not familiar with. I kind of understand some of your first post, but then I feel like I'm looking at computer code or something. :p
I do definitely like the idea of adding further descriptors to spells. That is the same thing as key-words, right?
As to the other balance issues. For the purposes of this thread, I'm less concerned with those. Within the confines of Arcane/Psychic and Divine casters, the features you reference are pretty much matched between spontaneous and prepared casters. Those features might affect how these classes balance against other classes, but not each other. Once we start talking about other classes, they all get to rightly say, "You're a full (Arcane) caster. Shut the heck up!"
The only tree I'm trying to bark at, is the gap between prepared and spontaneous casting. I want the choice to be closer to mechanically equal but distinct, so that one isn't penalized for making a play-style or flavor choice.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: The advantage of the prepared caster over the spontaneous caster is mostly illusion. In theory the prepared caster can reconfigure his spell selection to meet any challenge. The reality of that is usually not anywhere close to the theory. For that to happen requires the prepared caster to know what they are facing and not have any surprises. While that situation can occasionally come up in a game it is extremely rare. In fact, it is more common for a prepared caster to have made poor choices and end up with an extremely week selection of spells.
In addition, spontaneous casters get more spells per day than prepared casters. The prepared caster does get access to higher level spells earlier, but when it comes to casting more spells, the advantage is with the spontaneous caster. Even when it comes to casting total spell levels the spontaneous caster has the advantage in almost all cases. Comparing a sorcerer and a wizard the sorcerer can cast more spells at every level except for 5th. At 5th level both sorcerer and wizard can cast 5 spells. When it comes to total spell levels cast per day the sorcerer gets more at every level except 3rd, 5th and 7th. At 3rd and 5th, the wizard has the advantage and at 7th they are equal at 30 total spell levels. These numbers include the wizard’s specialist slot but do not include high casting stat. At 12th level the sorcerer can cast 32 spells per day with a total spell level of 103, the wizard can cast 26 spells with a total spell level of 84. That is a significant advantage.
Some races get extra spells knows as a FCB, while the wizard gets extra spells in their book. The sorcerer FCB is way better than what a wizard gets. When you factor in that and the bloodline spell a sorcerer can end up with 8 spells known per spell level. Spontaneous casters also have access to magic items that can allow them to add spells to their known spell list. Mnemonic Vestment is cheap and incredibly useful. Pages of spell knowledge.
What it comes down to is not...
Thanks for a more detailed breakdown on the spell numbers. I was working off of recollections from an old post I saw from several years ago. It may be that my memory is in error, but the impression I had been left with was that the Wizard's extra school spells per day, early higher level spells, and possibly bonded item came close enough to Sorcerer's spells per day to make the difference negligible at many levels. That post also placed more significance on high level spells, which is a rather subjective metric depending on tactics, play-style, and spell selection. All of that to say that I do concede/agree/understand that the spontaneous caster's greater numbers of spells per day is one of their (more consistent) advantages.
I'm compelled to disagree with you, partially, on the advantage of prepared casters when it comes to versatility and preparation. Table/campaign/playstyles have to be discounted or there become too many variables to make any analysis relevant. I do agree that the huge spell selection versatility becomes theoretical at a point. What is not theoretical is the difference in the base classes. A base lvl 20 basic Wizard who takes his new spells known from the highest level he has access to will know 20/10/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 spells of levels 0-9. With the exception of 2nd level spells, he either meets, or far exceeds the Sorcerer's spells known at any given level. By itself, I'd say that is the balancing advantage for prepared casters. There's more to consider though.
Prepared casters have the option to leave spell slots open for the day when prepping spells. This may not be much of an advantage for in combat casting, but for scouted encounters or any non-time sensitive obstacles, this gives prepared casters a huge boost in tactical and utility casting.
As far as race, feat, and magic item choices go, that's all pretty much a wash. All of the items you listed to help spontaneous casters gain spells known have to be balanced against prepared casters items. If the Sorcerer has access to those specific items, than it is equally (if not more) likely that the Witch or Wizard will have access to scrolls, tomes, and other casters to dramatically increase their spells known. I can't say this definitively, but I'd venture that scrolls and enemy caster spellbooks as loot, plus trade option NPC casters, are a more common game design assumption than Ye Old Magic Marts. Which is to say, new spells are more easily acquired than specific magic items.
My word choice as far as "powerful" may not have been the most apt. As I see it, spontaneous greater number of spells per day is roughly balanced against prepared greater number of spells known. Spamability of relevant spells could be said to balance against prepared's higher level early access. But then, prepared casters get to leave open slots, potentially spontaneous cast (a super tiny bit) from bonded items, and have options for acquiring even more spells known. The scales tip here in prepared's favor. Both types of casters are powerful. But, if we say the spontaneous advantage is consistency, and the prepared is versatility, we see where things get lopsided.
Leaving open prepared slots allows prepared casters to more consistently have the right spell for any given job. As they acquire more and more spells known, this expanded versatility pushes their advantages further. By contrast, spontaneous casters don't have any equivalent options to boost their advantages. Giving them even more spells per day would be busted. So, that leaves giving them something to pick up a bit more versatility, to balance against the prepared casters' dip into consistency. Wether it's my proposal, Limited UnderCasting, or something else, the extremely limited spell retraining needs an addition or a big boost.
expanded[italics]
Azothath wrote: adding a cross-connected(or non-exclusive) hierarchy to the spells would be complex. creating and adding a bunch of interconnected spell lists would be a pain in the Haas and just open up lots of second guessing and questions. You'd be fooling around with those lists for years.
Why not just stick with the same school and descriptors allowing one descriptor change per spell level decrease after the first spell level?
THAT'S THE RULE!
You'd just have to ensure the right →descriptors← are on the spells for your game. Converting some keywords like Cure, Monster, Nature, Space, Interdimensional, Void, Chaos(chaódis/anarchic), Neutrality(fysikós/aptus), Law(nómimos/axiomatic), Good(kalosýni/bonum), Neutral(oudéteros/rectus), Evil(kakía/malum), Positive(anáptyxi/zoí), Negative(diálysi/nekrós), etc would define and constrain the relationships more than arcane school.
descriptors is a technical term and linked to the RAW list. Adding more doesn't really alter how they function but describes how the work or the effects associated with the spell. So these descriptive details help create interconnections which is exactly what you want.
I included some suggestions for names rather than using the existing key words or terms to avoid alignment crossover or blurring the current meaning. A "relationship" is a technical term pointing to the relation or rule between two things or variables. This is what [descriptors] are for. You see it with rule interactions like [fire] and energy resistance 5/fire, immune to fire, vulnerability, or hardness.
Neutral/Neutrality should be unique rather than indistinguishable, vague, or considered the same. The original writers just muddled it and didn't care. Then "don't fix it if it ain't broke" cemented it into practice.
Example:
Knowing Sonic Thrust:K5 evokation [sonic], you could cast a K4[sonic] or a K3[fire], but not a K3[darkness, light].
again, I always write spells with their school and basic class spell level(Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Alchemst). I changed evocation to a K as it makes it unique and I'm for easy shorthand. NOT writing this down as a GM will create problems for items where the spell appears on different spell lists at different spell levels. Seen it too many times.
descriptors are in square brackets, like [fire]. Magic Item Body Slots(MIBS) are in square brackets for magic items, like [neck]. Charges are in square brackets, like [50]. This comes from math notation where square brackets denote a defined or limited set, such as [0,1,2,3,4,5] with 6 members and where 4.5 isn't valid.
Sonic Thrust{name of spell} : K{school} 5{Spell Level}.
I'm sure you can figure out the rest.
Constantly rethinking my phrasing . . .
Put a different way, in threads and guides I've been reading, prepared casters are said to be the best specialists, but because of their greater spell selection, they are also the best generalists. With either scouting or a bit of downtime, the prepared casters can become the specialist they need to be.
The spontaneous caster is forced to either be a specialist who is handicapped when their specialty isn't relevant, or be a generalist who lacks enough spells known to cover the bases a generalist should.
I don't mind that prepared casting is better at some things, but it just seems wrong that the only circumstance where the spontaneous caster gets to shine is immediate combats with no foreknowledge, where their spells known are actually relevant, and the encounter lasts long enough for one more highest level slot to make the difference.
I will still almost always choose to play a spontaneous caster. It's my style preference. But a flavor, roleplay, or player style choice shouldn't be mechanically penalized. What Pathfinder added to spontaneous casters in class features was a huge step towards fixing old issues. Options and flavor are wonderful. What was missed is this still ongoing imbalance in the actual mechanics of the two casting styles.
The argument for prepared casters great versatility being hypothetical (for Divines it's indisputable) is completely counterbalanced by the fact that spontaneous casters's extra spells don't come into play much either.
Since most encounters are expected to last 2-5 rounds, by earlyish levels most casters have plenty of spell slots. Most conventional wisdom I see suggests that a full caster should only need to cast a few spells per combat to fulfill their part. Unless you have a marathon combat, or tons of encounters between rests, the spontaneous casters "spells all day" is as irrelevant as the prepared casters' "every spell known" is theoretical.
What is true though, is that prepared casters will definitively have more spells know (again, all for Divine), and can get an absurd number. Spontaneous casters still run into a hard cap on their spells per day. They have an edge on prepared, sure. They can't grow that edge into a cliff though.
Azothath wrote: expanded[italics]
Azothath wrote: adding a cross-connected(or non-exclusive) hierarchy to the spells would be complex. creating and adding a bunch of interconnected spell lists would be a pain in the Haas and just open up lots of second guessing and questions.
Why not just stick with the same school and descriptors allowing one descriptor change per spell level decrease after the first spell level?
You'd just have to ensure the right →descriptors← are on the spells for your game. Converting some keywords like Cure, Monster, Nature, Space, Interdimensional, Void, Chaos(chaódis/anarchic), Neutrality(fysikós/aptus), Law(nómimos/axiomatic), Good(kalosýni/bonum), Neutral(oudéteros/rectus), Evil(kakía/malum), Positive(anáptyxi/zoí), Negative(diálysi/nekrós), etc would define and constrain the relationships more than arcane school.
descriptors is a technical term and linked to the RAW list. Adding more doesn't really alter how they function but describes how the work or the effects associated with the spell. So these descriptive details help create interconnections which is exactly what you want.
I included some suggestions for names rather than using the existing key words or terms to avoid alignment crossover or blurring the current meaning.
Example:
Knowing Sonic Thrust:K5 evokation [sonic], you could cast a K4[sonic] or a K3[fire], but not a K3[darkness, light].
again, I always write spells with their school and basic class spell level(Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Alchemst). I changed evocation to a K as it makes it unique and I'm for easy shorthand.
descriptors are in square brackets.
Sonic Thrust{name of spell} : K{school} 5{Spell Level}.
Thanks for clarifying. The "K#" was part of what was throwing me off. Now that I understand your notation a little better, I do like it. This would definitely make creating chains more uniform and less subjective.
Using your example though, if schools stay the same, and descriptors get to change as you drop down spell levels, why couldn't [sonic] become [light] when it could become [fire]?
what it does is say if you know a spell at 5th, you can cast something from the same school with the same descriptor at 4th. Then cast many more associated spells from 3rd. It's a choice with [descriptors], subtract one, add one, or change one.
We also assume the lower spells aren't quite as good and DC's drop, but you gained options as a caster and paid the price for flexibility. It also opens up Heighten Spell metamagic to being actually useful but for Spontaneous casters this means full round castings.
The Psychic/occult spells are more curated than the arcane/divine spell lists. Those are built with undercasting in mind. Just like the ICE/Rolemaster spell lists.
Okay - you could create a substitution list of descriptors. It lends some rationale to the changes but really complicates the system. Like Fire to Air or Earth, but not Water. I'd imagine four circles of change; emotion/thought/humours, action/forces/means, mass/elements, ways/processes/states.
The Sorcerers has an upper limit of 6 spells per spell level they can cast per day; the wizard has an upper limit of 5 (4 + school slot) spells per spell level. Sorcerers also gain 3 spells per day when they gain a new spell level, wizards 2 (1 + school slot) per day when they gain a new spell level. So, even when you factor in the school slot sorcerers get more spells per day than a wizard. The sorcerer gains new spell levels 1 level after the wizard, but gains when they do, they can cast the same number of spells of the new level that the wizard can.
The school slot is also restricted to the school the wizard specializes in. If the wizard’s school is not combat focused that often means the school slot is not as useful in combat. If you are a diviner (a very popular choice) chances are your school spell is not going to be that useful in combat. That puts you two spells per spell level behind the sorcerer.
Sorcerers are also a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill. That opens the possibility to use magic items from other classes. How many wizards can use cleric or druid specific item?
If you play your sorcerer like a wizard of course they will come out behind, but if you play them like a sorcerer the wizard cannot match them at what they do. A wizard trying to be a blaster usually does not work well, but a sorcerer can do this well. With the right bloodline and taking the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation the sorcerer can get up to +2 per die on their damaging spells.
Azothath wrote: what it does is say if you know a spell at 5th, you can cast something from the same school with the same descriptor at 4th. Then cast many more associated spells from 3rd.
We also assume the lower spells aren't quite as good and DC's drop, but you gained options as a caster. So that's the price for flexibility. It also opens up Heighten Spell metamagic to being actually useful.
The Psychic/occult spells are more curated than the arcane/divine spell lists. Those are built with undercasting in mind. Just like the ICE/Rolemaster spell lists.
I think I'm getting you, but I'm not quite there. Your experience and system mastery is greater enough than mine that I think I'm not aware of certain things you're assuming as common knowledge. It's like Einstein trying to teach Calculus to someone who's only taken Algebra 1. We're missing some steps.
Is your proposal meant to help make an UnderCasting variant for other spontaneous casters viable, or to help make a more consistent path for upgrade chains? I'm getting the impression it's the former, which is fine.
I need to use some concrete examples to wrap my head around this. Time for the classic Fireball example. For the purposes of this example, this will be the only spell known. Evocation [fire], 3rd level spell requiring a 3rd level slot. If you take it the next step down both Flaming Sphere and Scorching Ray qualify; Evocation [fire] level 2. Are you proposing a 3rd level spot is still required to cast these? Or would they take a 2nd level slot?
At only one spell level down, you can not change descriptors?
So then, one more level down, Burning Hands qualifies. However, (as current) Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile, and Floating Disk all qualify? You can change one descriptor, so [fire] can swap to [electricity] or [force].
From your earlier [sonic] example was [darkness, light] not acceptable because that was 2 descriptors on the same spell? So [sonic] two levels down to [light] would be acceptable?
If a spell has multiple descriptors, as you decrease levels further, you get to swap more descriptors? So, a 5th level spell with three descriptors must all match dropping to 4th, change one descriptor at 3rd, change up to two at 2nd, and possibly all 3 at 1st.
I get adding descriptors to many more spells to make this up, but it seems unwealdy. This would be potentially even more powerful than standard UnderCasting. It would definitely need to be gated behind feats or swapped class features. Many meta-magic feats would be gimped by this option. I'm not opposed, it just seems like a lot of front end work would be necessary.
Of course, if some of the Words of Power were used to make descriptors (thanks @DragonChess Player) that could tighten this up considerably.
The three concerns or misunderstanding I have:
1. As above, this seems like a lot of work up front (not bad), and may be overly complex (possibly bad).
2. If this isn't kept tight or gated behind other resources, it could make spontaneous casters too versatile in comparison to prepared. I want to even the scales, not tip them the other way.
3. Thematically, as I currently understand this, it could get more than a bit silly. I already don't care for Fireball being able to swap down to Shocking Grasp (I'd prefer to keep elements matching), but I don't think anyone would be on board with the Floating Disc being in the same line as Fireball.
If Words of Power had gotten enough support to replicate/match all normal spells, then it would probably be the best answer to what I'm looking for.
So, @Azothath? How much did I understand correctly? And where were we speaking different languages?
Tangential rules question/clarification.
You have any spell that requires a saving throw by the target. Let's say it's a Lvl 1 spell. You are out of 1st level spell slots for the day, but this spell is the right tool for the job. You decide to use a 3rd level slots to cast the level 1 spell.
Does the save DC go up by 2 because you cast using a 3rd level slots? (This is what I was originally taught)
Or does the save DC stay as whatever your level one spell DC is?
In either case, what does Heighten Spell actually do?
just answering the gist of your post with concrete examples
Sorceror 6th level (Spontaneous caster) Cha 18 (+4) with varisian tattoo (K) and Spell Focus (K), Heighten Spell feat.
Known Fireball:K3@7 (7d6)[fire] Rflx:18 using SplLvl 3 slots.
He could also cast;
> Scorching Ray:K2@7 rng 40ft for 2 rngd tchs (4d6)[fire] using 3rd slot.
> Not Molten Orb:K2 as it is [earth, fire] so that extra descriptor stops it.
> Ear-prc Scream:K1@7 rng 40ft for (3d6)[sonic] daze 1r or save Fort 16 for dmg/2 & no daze using a 3rd slot. IF Ear-prc Scream is known he could use Heighten MetaMagic full round cast for DC18 (really the same as using heighten on Ear-prc Scream). I think I'd want an item or feat to allow metamagics to be used on a spell or short list of spells.
Wizard 6th level (Prepared caster) Int 18 (+4) with varisian tattoo (K) and Spell Focus (K), Heighten Spell feat.
Prepared Fireball:K3@7 (7d6)[fire] Rflx:18 using SplLvl 3 slot.
He could also cast;
> Scorching Ray:K2@7 rng 40ft for 2 rngd tchs (4d6)[fire] using the prepared Fireball.
> Not Molten Orb:K2 as it is [earth, fire] so that extra descriptor stops it.
> Ear-prc Scream:K1@7 rng 40ft for (3d6)[sonic] daze 1r or save Fort 16 for dmg/2 & no daze using the Fireball. Two possibilities; spontaneous substitution IF Ear-prc Scream is scribed he could use Heighten MetaMagic full round cast for DC18, OR a GM could just say no to spontaneous metamagic use. Again, a feat would allow a short list of spells.
Arcanist is the class in the middle.
Notice knowing or having the spell scribed isn't required for Scorching Ray. It IS required for applying a known metamagic feat.
Heighten is the easy & least complex metamagic. I don't see it upsetting the system. Reach spell at +1 (not +2 or +3), Delay spell at +1 are also safe bets.
Another metamagic feat might be too much especially for the prepared caster. At high level expect Quicken to be an option. Nobody wants prepared casters suddenly shooting out benthic scorching rays using their Fireball.
Personally I think the thread could transition to Homebrew.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Sorcerers are also a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill. That opens the possibility to use magic items from other classes. How many wizards can use cleric or druid specific item?
If you play your sorcerer like a wizard of course they will come out behind, but if you play them like a sorcerer the wizard cannot match them at what they do. A wizard trying to be a blaster usually does not work well, but a sorcerer can do this well. With the right bloodline and taking the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation the sorcerer can get up to +2 per die on their damaging spells.
Thanks again for the numbers break down. I do concede and agree with that point. I had been operating under a misapprehension from a thread from long ago.
As to the rest, I have been looking at the casting mechanics purely in relation to one and other, only spontaneous vs. prepared. I've used Sorcerer and Wizard because they are the oldest/easiest reference, but this is also about (perhaps worse for) Oracle v. Cleric, Psychic v. Shaman, Sorcerer v. Witch, etc.
With all of the various class features and modular options added to many classes, I've been operating on the premise that those features (more or less) balance out against one and other. I said somewhere above that I thought Bloodlines balanced against the various Wizard Features pretty evenly.
Falling back into the Sorcerer vs. Wizard comparison (which truly was not the intent of this thread), I hadn't really considered UMD. I do see that Sorcerers get an edge in UMD, but I figured that balanced against the Wizard's INT dependency and Knowledges. I'm probably mistaken, but I thought more spells known also had an impact on the need for a UMD check or not. I do see though, depending on the availability of various magic items, where UMD impacts on both types of castings versatility. Devil's advocate to this though; can't Spellcraft be used by prepared casters to create/learn their own variants of off-class spells?
Azothath wrote: Sorceror 6th level (Spontaneous caster) Cha 18 (+4) with varisian tattoo (K) and Spell Focus (K), Heighten Spell feat.
Known Fireball:K3@7 (7d6)[fire] Rflx:18 using SplLvl 3 slots.
He could also cast;
> Scorching Ray:K2@7 rng 40ft for 2 rngd tchs (4d6)[fire] using 3rd slot.
> Not Molten Orb:K2 as it is [earth, fire] so that extra descriptor stops it.
> Ear-prc Scream:K1@7 rng 40ft for (3d6)[sonic] daze 1r or save Fort 16 for dmg/2 & no daze using a 3rd slot. IF Ear-prc Scream is known he could use Heighten MetaMagic full round cast for DC18 (really the same as using heighten on Ear-prc Scream). I think I'd want an item or feat to allow Heighten Spell to be used on a spell or short list of spells.
Wizard 6th level (Prepared caster) Int 18 (+4) with varisian tattoo (K) and Spell Focus (K), Heighten Spell feat.
Prepared Fireball:K3@7 (7d6)[fire] Rflx:18 using SplLvl 3 slot.
He could also cast;
> Scorching Ray:K2@7 rng 40ft for 2 rngd tchs (4d6)[fire] using the prepared Fireball.
> Not Molten Orb:K2 as it is [earth, fire] so that extra descriptor stops it.
> Ear-prc Scream:K1@7 rng 40ft for (3d6)[sonic] daze 1r or save Fort 16 for dmg/2 & no daze using the Fireball. Two possibilities; spontaneous substitution IF Ear-prc Scream is scribed he could use Heighten MetaMagic full round cast for DC18, OR a GM could just say no to spontaneous metamagic use. Again, a feat would allow a short list of spells.
Arcanist is the class in the middle.
Notice knowing or having the spell scribed isn't required for Scorching Ray. It IS required for applying a known metamagic feat.
Heighten is the easy & least complex metamagic. I don't see it upsetting the system.
Another might be too much especially for the prepared caster. At high level expect Quicken to be an option. Nobody wants prepared casters suddenly shooting out benthic scorching rays using their Fireball.
Thanks for the breakdown.
So, this would be an option for all casters? Big versatility boost for all. Not inherently bad, but does fail to address the spontaneous v. prepared gap. This also would widen the casters vs. non-casters gap, which I think we all agree is bad. If this is open to all casters, definitely should require build/resource option requirements.
I do like the versatility, but I think without further restrictions, thematically it wouldn't fit what I was looking for. The goal, at least in part, was to keep the spell upgrades linked by theme. Keep Invisibility, Fire, Flight, Summoning, Polymorphs, etc. together. I do like keeping things linked by schools though. That would keep the spell chains from my original idea from becoming to unwealdy.
my change is systemic rather than class based.
Sorcerers with spontaneous application of metamagics make out.
You'll have to wait a few days for reviewers to comment.
Some commenters won't like any change. LoL. It's Homebrew.
If you wanted a list of undercast spells, use the bloodline spells. Easy peasy & done. *dang* that wuz so obvious
If you take bloodline Orc your undercast list is Bonus Spells: burning hands:K1, bull’s strength:T2, rage:E3, wall of fire:K4, cloudkill:C5, transformation:T6, delayed blast fireball:K7, iron body:T8, meteor swarm:K9.
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