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Gonna kick this off with a question. Presumably there are three groups of level 17+ characters in the area, any fun ideas on what to do with them? My first thought was that
I see a lot of presumption of either 7 Dooms for Sandpoint or Mythspeaker as AP's to lead into this one, what about Triumph of the Tusk? It's already Mythic-adjacent, much closer than Iblydos, and better filled-out than 7 Dooms. I don't have my copies immediately at hand, but I don't recall any glaring problems. Is there something I'm missing?
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But then you went and added 'the Cult of the Redeemer Queen, ,preaches that both the reason for and methods of her ascension are equally irrelevant; to your Deity article on her. Did you even run this by anyone to make certain it wasn't going to blow up in your face like 'Book of the Damned' did, or did you just hope that, since it wasn't a hardcover & wouldn't get the same eyeballs, you could squeak it by?
Seriously?
F@~&ing Seriously? That is Gaslighting language right there.
For those of us who have experienced Gaslighting, this is doing nothing to improve our opinion of the entity in question.
If you are going to put this into what is, essentially, doctrine for the Deity in question, do not be surprised when, not if, you get push-back from your community.
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** spoiler omitted **
Sorry I'm trying to understand here;
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** spoiler omitted **Sorry I'm trying to understand here;
** spoiler omitted **
Saying that the countless murders, rapes, abductions, active efforts to corrupt others, and so on that can be laid either directly or indirectly at Nocticula's feet 'are irrelevant' (actually your implication) because it's 'what she's doing now that's important' is a textbook example of 'not a big deal' as a Gaslighting tactic.
Now let's talk about why the why and the how are
First, the 'why'. With no explanation for 'why' Nocticula decided to make the 'heel/face turn' it's truly not unreasonable to expect that an entity with a past history of deception on the scale she has to have simply done this to advance her 'schemes' to achieve a 'power-up'.
It's genuinely impressive how the article attempts to subvert this completely reasonable concern on the part of Nocticula's critics by having be the one 'in game' to actually voice this legitimate concern flat-out. 10/10, no notes.
Now for the 'how', you recall how you were able to defend Arazni's ascension but not either Sorshen nor Nocticula's? That's because the developer who plotted Arazni's 'redemption arc' actually paid attention to Arazni as a character, rather than an object of fixation.
The developer responsible for Tyrant's Grasp 'showed' us the circumstances & forces which made Arazni 'evil'. More importantly, she let her 'stay' . Until the remaster, Arazni's alignment remained evil. The PC's actions during Tyrant's Grasp (in particular their interactions with Arazni) are the catalyst which enable's Arazni to heal (at least partially) enough to decide making existence as much of a hell for everyone else as it is for her is no longer the course she will follow. From there, the willingness to sacrifice herself could logically follow. Too many people forget that the actual root meaning of 'Sacrifice' is to make sacred. In sacrificing herself, in this case 'literally' making Sacred, Arazni ascended. This was possible because in that moment, Arazni recognized a value greater than herself & in working towards that, rather than her own self-aggrandizement, she showed 'the cosmos' for lack of a better descriptor that she was worthy of full deification, if perhaps slightly delayed.
As far as anyone else is concerned, at no point has Nocticula demonstrated any degree of sacrifice. She gave up nothing, she discarded that which no longer served her purposes.
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Oh the irony I find this quite perplexing since I would say it's the opposite way round. I mean they have literally been doing the whole Noctilla possible redemption thing since either early pathfinder or maybe the 3.5 erra wheras the Arzani one basically comes out of no-where (It is pretty well done though I will admit.)
Maybe it's less Gaslighting and more they assumed people would have been following her story up to this point and not wanting to use a lot of the space retelling a story they already told elsewhere? (Since she has had a deity article before plus numerous entries in other god books and guides.)
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** spoiler omitted **...** spoiler omitted **Sorry I'm trying to understand here;
** spoiler omitted **
Ah I see, not ignorant just trying to understand your viewpoint given it appeared to not really be gaslighting to myself? The word gets thrown around a lot incorrectly nowadays and I didn't see it being applicable here for Nocticula, is all.
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Yeah I mean the seeds were set for her path to redemption in Wrath of the Righteous, and expanded upon in Book of the Damned, Planar Adventures, Hell's Rebels, and Return of the Runelords before being fully developed in Tyrant's Grasp and Second Edition. She's not denying that her past existed, but rather trying to atone and move on from that past, and one way to do that is to tell people to take her as she is now, rather than as she was then. Its just as much an effort in breaking from her old followers as it is anything else.
Creative Director
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Sorry if the Nocticula article upset folks; that absolutely wasn't the intent. We've got a really great team here between the writers, developers, and editors when it comes to making sure we represent situations responsibly, having learned lessons the hard way a few times via feedback over the decades. In this specific case, it's not intended to be gaslighting. Nocticula's faith doesn't teach revisionist history or try to hide the fact that she was once an evil demon, but nor do they hyperfocus on it, and instead look to the future.
I do get it that some folks aren't happy with some of the redemption stories we publish (and for the record, I've always seen Arazni's story as less about redemption and more about revenge), but between our writers, developers, and editors, I strongly feel we've got a VERY responsible group of folks looking over everything that we publish. I personally stand by this article and its presentation as the latest development of a complex story involving a demon who becomes a non-demon deity as it parallels the story of Sorshen turning over a new leaf and abandoning the old ways of tyranny and evil.
That said, please do continue to provide feedback! It's almost always welcome. I say "almost" because when passions run hot and posts become antagonistic or hurtful or insulting, they stop being helpful and poison the discussion. Please be patient, kind, and respectful of everyone.
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Yeah, okay, I am going to do some pushback here. I like the concept of redemption, so I've always felt drawn to Sarenrae.
Nocticula's redemption, though, is something different from the redemption Sarenrae teaches. Sarenrae's concept of redemption obviously focuses on the concept of penance for ones misdeeds, i.e. "work for your happy ending". Nocticula is not like that. The article in this AP volume did not focus on it (James has mentioned multiple times that Nocticula is not primarily about redemption), but her entry in Divine Mysteries made it pretty clear that she knows that she cannot redress all the ills she has caused in the millenia she was a demon lord. So she just stopped doing evil and started doing good (although she was chaotic neutral when alignment still was a thing, her faith offering exiles a safe haven is something I personally would categorize as good).
Her faith is not about redemption, but her example still offers demons and other fiends a way to stop doing evil, by just walking away from it.
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As a GM, I have a question about running my Seven Dooms players (eventually) through Revenge of the Runelords. Here's my question:
How do the 12th-level PCs coming out of Seven Dooms become mythic for Revenge?
Please note my constraints:
(1) I've downloaded the Players Guide, but I have not read it because (as a player), my PF1E GM has not yet run us through Return of the Runelords. It's on the docket. I'm aware of the broad strokes of the lore surrounding New Thassilon and so on, but I'm trying very hard to avoid specific spoilers. So if my question is addressed in the Players Guide, just let me know; I'll obviously be reading it before I GM Revenge.
(2) I've just skimmed through Vol. I of Revenge, keying on discussions of "Mythic," and I didn't see an answer there. Again, I'm trying to avoid specific spoilers, so if the answer is in there, just tell me so, and it'll all be good.
If the answers aren't in either of these sources (or even if so), please feel free to discuss the ways the PCs can achieve mythic status (as 12th level PCs). I'd really enjoy and appreciate your thoughts. (As an aside, I have read War of the Immortal.)
Will we be getting statistics for the Sheidron Medallion and Runewells in this book?
Seems the dedicated "But what about Nocticula, huh?" thread went places tonight, since it's gone now. I miss all the stuff here in Germany while I'm sleeping...
Will we be getting statistics for the Sheidron Medallion and Runewells in this book?Medallion and Ring yes, Runewell, not in this volume
So Runewell in another volume? Only reason I'm asking is cause I'm working on a conversion of Rise and that'd be nice to have lol.
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As a GM, I have a question about running my Seven Dooms players (eventually) through Revenge of the Runelords. Here's my question:
How do the 12th-level PCs coming out of Seven Dooms become mythic for Revenge?
Please note my constraints:
(1) I've downloaded the Players Guide, but I have not read it because (as a player), my PF1E GM has not yet run us through Return of the Runelords. It's on the docket. I'm aware of the broad strokes of the lore surrounding New Thassilon and so on, but I'm trying very hard to avoid specific spoilers. So if my question is addressed in the Players Guide, just let me know; I'll obviously be reading it before I GM Revenge.
(2) I've just skimmed through Vol. I of Revenge, keying on discussions of "Mythic," and I didn't see an answer there. Again, I'm trying to avoid specific spoilers, so if the answer is in there, just tell me so, and it'll all be good.
If the answers aren't in either of these sources (or even if so), please feel free to discuss the ways the PCs can achieve mythic status (as 12th level PCs). I'd really enjoy and appreciate your thoughts. (As an aside, I have read War of the Immortal.)
Players will select their mythic destiny at the beginning thou I am still not sure how their selection of Mythic feats since this will be my first encounter with this rule.
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Creative Director
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From a storyline perspective and a thematic perspective, Rusthenge to Seven Dooms to Revenge of the Runelords is about perfect, and to a certain level is kind of how I would have set things up if I'd wanted to do this from the start as a 1st to 20th level AP (although I'd add in mythic stuff to Seven Dooms, and have the PCs find their mythic callings as the result of Rusthenge).
As for runewells...
** spoiler omitted **
Will both items be level appropriate for a 2e Rise conversion?
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Creative Director
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Will both items be level appropriate for a 2e Rise conversion?As for runewells...
** spoiler omitted **
Well...
Glad to hear it!
Will we get Queen Sorshen's stat block in Vol. 3?
Just curious, I would love to be able to compare the 2e version to the 1e.
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Creative Director
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Will we get Queen Sorshen's stat block in Vol. 3?
Just curious, I would love to be able to compare the 2e version to the 1e.
If you want to compare, you will be able to do so with Belimarius.
But Sorshen's role is one that doesn't require her NPC stats. Something different happens there but I'm not ready to spoil that until the last book is out so that folks can find out that way.
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I wonder how good of integration would be if players come from Rusthenge and from Seven Dooms from player build and story-wise.
This is exactly the route my players have taken. So far so good.
My only concern, and it's very minor, is that the characters may put down such deep roots in Sandpoint that they'll be reluctant to leave. I honestly think it'll all work fine, though. Even if Revenge doesn't have adequate hooks (and I'm pretty certain it does) my players know to chase adventures.
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Why is Zutha any more likely to rise than Krune?
Krune was killed by PCs in a PFS scenario and Zutha was killed by PCs in an AP book.
I have not played that PFS scenario, but I did play Return of the Runelords. Zutha is gone forever.
Alderpash is a good one to bring back, though.
That could be an interesting development for the Saga lands.
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Creative Director
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We can't assume any one group's canoncial endings are the canonical endings for the setting. We have to make some choices, and for Zutha... there MIGHT still be a way for him to come back. Kinda not shutting that door yet, officially, is all... but also...
On top of that, liches are notoriously tenacious about having ways to come back. I'm 99% sure Zutha WON'T be back... but he and his legacy have complicated entanglements with Tar-Baphon, and like Xanderghul, he never really got the chance to fight the PCs at full strength on-screen, so I'm reserving that 1% possibility of maybe him coming back and thus not being available to be a risen runelord in the off chance that folks, after playing Revenge of the Runelords, continue to want more Runelords stories and/or are disappointed that they never got to face full-power Zutha in a fight.
If we DO go with that small-but-not-zero-percent chance of a story involving Zutha coming back, you'll need to decide for your game how to square that circle, I guess... but that's part of the complexity that comes with GMing published adventures and the publisher wanting to do sequels to those adventures.
In any case, Zutha is not more likely to rise than Krune. Risen Krune is one of the earlier risen runelords you face in this campaign, and he's on the cover of the first book, after all. Risen Zutha does NOT appear in this campaign. Consider the exact reasons for that to be a mystery that is partially, but not fully, explained in book 2.
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We can't assume any one group's canoncial endings are the canonical endings for the setting. We have to make some choices, and for Zutha... there MIGHT still be a way for him to come back. Kinda not shutting that door yet, officially, is all... but also...
** spoiler omitted **
Please keep in mind that if Paizo keeps bringing back foes that PCs thought they had permanently defeated, it will eventually feel like what we as players accomplished was for naught. We didn't matter. Having very little agency kinda sucks.
I understand entirely bringing back Tar Baphon as a recurring antagonist, since his returns are entirely in line with lich lore. We have no idea where his phylactery is. That was a wise decision on Paizo's part. It keeps us interested, at least for a while.
Zutha, however, is no Tar Baphon. We figured out what his phylactery was and destroyed it.
I ask you to please allow us players, and what we do as our characters to matter. Leave Zutha dead.
Thanks.
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yeah... i want more stories where Nocticula, Arazni, Shoshen, etc. are the main villains that we destroy in the adventure path. not a fan of redemption for demon lords, lich queens and evil runelords.
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Creative Director
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yeah... i want more stories where Nocticula, Arazni, Shoshen, etc. are the main villains that we destroy in the adventure path. not a fan of redemption for demon lords, lich queens and evil runelords.
For those specific stories, you're on your own. Those are specifically stories about redemption and revenge for demon lords, liches, and runelords. If you want stories about destroying those things, we will continue to have you covered in various adventures... but those stories will be about different characters.
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Creative Director
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If there's a compelling reason for a Zutha return that narratively makes sense, I would be excited to run a full strength Zutha just like I look forward to this AP. The Cenotaph is still around.
For GM Reference, should the statblocks ** spoiler omitted **
Also curious, do the primary writers design the encounters (select/create creatures and hazards, encounter difficulty, design the subsystems, and select the loot) or is that usually done by the developer? A lot of recent work has been phenomenal.
For GM Reference on the spoiler, are there specific stat blocks you're referencing? Becuase the answer will depend on the stat block. NPCs don't have to follow the same rules for PCs for similarly named abilities, after all.
As for the latter, we generally provide a rough outline for an adventure, which sometimes includes specific encounter details for certain areas but leaves others up to the author to propose in their expanded outlines for their assignments. The author is then expected to create the adventure from that finalized outline that the developer and author worked together on. Once the author is done and turns in the final text, the developer then goes through the entire thing and not only gives the work its first edit pass for spelling and grammar and all that, but also adjusts things as needed to carry it over the finish line when it comes to rules design, encounter balance, treasure distribution, lyricism in writing, and fleshing out areas that the author missed. In some cases, this amounts to not much additional work on the developer's part, but in others it amounts to what's essentially a complete rewrite of the adventure. (In the most extreme cases of the latter, a developer will sometimes take an additional writing credit for the adventure.)
Once that's done and the developed text is off for its first official edit pass, the developer gives the author feedback on their writing with a goal of training the freelancer to become a better adventure writer, so that the next turnover from them won't take as much work to develop.
Each author has a different set of strengths and weaknesses, and we use a wide range of authors, so even if ALL the authors we use are relatively strong at writing adventures, the developers still have the task of making sure that the finished product adheres to Paizo's style and supports the overall narrative goals of the product.
Glad to hear that you're impressed with the recent work!
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Something I was really hoping to see in a Xanderghul-focused adventure was a sort of thing one will see occasionally in movies and video games: an illusion you don't know you're inside at first. Something like a PF1e Microcosm, wherein Xanderghul tries to gaslight the PCs into siding with him.
I always knew this would be hard to pull off, especially as doing that in a TTRPG would most likely break trust between players and GM.
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Question: On page 41 the Runelord killed off-screen is mentioned as Runelord of Greed Atharend. I suppose this is just a mistake and it is supposed to be Runelord of Gluttony? (though he would not have Desintegrate on his statblock, like it's mentionned he used on the dragon)
Have people kept to the rule that mythic items require a mythic point to activate? I don't think the module remembered that, but they are suppose to be treated as needing a mythic point to use like War of the Immortals explains.
Took a look at this with Podfinder in a discussion here to see if we could examine the module alongside newer DMs to Pathfinder 2E and if it would be feasible to run a group of newish players through it after a 1-10 adventure- keeping in mind Phil's feedback to make 11-12 mini-adventure exclusively in the city to get to know the leaders and vast dungeons underneath introducing the players to the cult early.
When I run this at the virtual table in a liveplay, it's gonna be a lot of meatgrinding with these Runelords coming in and next to no players recognizing them, or even knowing who they were in previous adventures.