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If you are at Dying you, by definition are unconscious and can't act.
You are bleeding out or otherwise at death's door. While you have this condition, you are unconscious.
You're sleeping or have been knocked out. You can't act.
This is straight RAW. No ambiguity.
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Unconcious: "You can't act"
He's going from Wounded to Dead, not Wounded to Unconscious to Dead so it's a bit trickier than that. And it's "would die" so there's the vibe of interrupting, at which point the victim/spell target/(in this case caster too) wouldn't have died yet.
So it seems fine, given the extreme situation. Funnily enough, this does make it better than "just shy of dying" then dying on your turn.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In this case, where the caster isn't Unconscious, yes it works. I don't know why people are saying otherwise.
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He's going from Wounded to Dead, not Wounded to Unconscious to Dead so it's a bit trickier than that.
That's not correct. Look at page 406 and 410 of Player Core.
The order is 1) roll damage; 2) apply immunities/etc. 3) reduce HP; 4) If Hp is reduced to 0 then become "knocked out" and unconscious; 5) Gain dying condition; 6) adding your wounded condition if applicable; 7) if dying value is 4, you die.
Breath of Life triggers between steps 6 and 7. By that point you are already unconscious, so you cannot act to cast the spell.
The only instance I could see is may be if you have an ability that allows you to stay conscious at 0 hp and just increase your wounded condition instead. Maybe.
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RAW — can the victim take a reaction to cast Breath of Life on themself at the instant of the killing blow?
No, because you've already taken damage and gone Unconscious. You have to have taken enough damage to drop to 0 and for your dying value to increase to get to the point where Breath of Life could trigger, because that's the point at which you would die.
At that point you're already Unconscious (by virtue of the damage taking you to 0 HP) and you are not capable of acting. "You can't act" explicitly includes reactions RAW.
If the trigger was "a target is about to take damage" or "a target is about to take damage that would drop them to 0 HP", then you would be able to do it because the reaction triggers before damage is applied. That is not true here.
RAI — is the designer intent that “would die” allows only others to react, or can self-reactions be taken in edge cases?
The usual caveat about guessing at designer intent aside, I would also say No in this case. Breath of Life is healing damage. That means the damage has to have happened for it to heal. If the damage has happened, you're Unconscious and can't react.
If the designers intended this to be usable by the caster, the reaction would happen before the target goes into dying rather than after. Delay Consequence, for example, happens BEFORE the damage is applied. The timing difference is probably not accidental.
Is there an official FAQ/errata or developer confirmation addressing this exact interaction?
No Errata that I'm aware of, but here's the list. If a developer commented on it somewhere unofficially, I'm not aware of it either.
In this case, where the caster isn't Unconscious, yes it works. I don't know why people are saying otherwise.
Except the caster is unconscious. They take damage, fall Unconscious, Dying increases, then they would die. That last one is the point where Breath of Life's trigger is met.
The only way the caster can use Breath of Life on themself is if something is somehow increasing them to Dying 4 while they're above 0 HP. That's explicitly not happening if their dying value is going up due to taking damage.
(The only case I know of where that could happen is Doomed 4, and Doomed 4 instantly kills you so Breath of Life doesn't help anyway.)
Trigger: A living creature within range would die
OK, yeah, I get the RAW that it says 'die' not 'drop unconscious from being at 0 HP'.
But this is a 5th Rank spell. One that theoretically should be useful for an adventuring party.
Do you guys seriously not interpret that trigger to mean that it works when one of the party drops? The first time they drop. Because... how many times do PCs reach the point where they are actually going to die.
Because you move in initiative when you drop to 0 hp, every other player is guaranteed a turn before you have to roll your first recovery check. You can just heal them when your turn comes up (heal, battle medicine, sooth, etc.).
The reason to have Breath of Life is that if a PC goes down but they would drop to dying 4, you don't have a chance to try and heal them before they die. Enter a reaction that is usable only at this specific time. Any other situation and you have a chance to heal them on your turn.
Trigger: A living creature within range would dieOK, yeah, I get the RAW that it says 'die' not 'drop unconscious from being at 0 HP'.
But this is a 5th Rank spell. One that theoretically should be useful for an adventuring party.
Do you guys seriously not interpret that trigger to mean that it works when one of the party drops? The first time they drop. Because... how many times do PCs reach the point where they are actually going to die.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. The trigger couldn't be more clear. There is no possible way to read "would die" as "fell to 0 HP".
This spell is hugely useful: it not only makes someone not die, it gets them back in a fight, as a reaction. It costs a big chunk of time and wealth to bring someone back from death without this.
Using it anytime someone goes to 0 HP would be a massive house rule and would make it pretty much must-take, because keeping someone active (and with their actions) without having to spend your own actions is so powerful. This would be the strongest reaction spell in the game, bar none.
If you're really in a group where no one ever dies... then yeah I guess you don't need it.
How does the caster even know the specific time of death? Does the spell grant some sort of death-detecting spider sense?
I really hate meta triggers like these that require knowledge the PC would not or could not have had. Many such abilities are dependent on the GM informing you that the trigger has been met, which means it probably never will be met (that you know of, or that the GM will ever remember).
How does the caster even know the specific time of death? Does the spell grant some sort of death-detecting spider sense?
I really hate meta triggers like these that require knowledge the PC would not or could not have had. Many such abilities are dependent on the GM informing you that the trigger has been met, which means it probably never will be met (that you know of, or that the GM will ever remember).
This one isn't the worst offender since while the caster doesn't have a good way to know (except that the spell is usable now), the player will at least likely know by the reaction of the player who just died.
Amp Guidance is the worst offender, IMO. The only way you can know that one is usable is if the GM remembers to tell you, you remember to ask, or you've figured out the DC.
But it's an ease of use for the player situation. Even if it doesn't make a ton of sense that the character suddenly knows they can use this spell, it's good for the player because it means they can't waste it on a situation where it isn't actually valid.
No, I don't think breath of life is the most egregious example. There are quite a few ability triggers that can't really work as written, or require GM (or other third party) to be 100% on the ball with giving the appropriate information at the designated time.
Most GMs have so much on their plate they can't even keep from skipping a player's turn or flubbing monster tactics on occasion.
So long as the event that would cause the caster's death happens while they previously were capable of reactive casting, I'd personally allow them to Breath of Life themself.
So, receiving a fireball while max Wounded would imo be fine. As far as the story is concerned, the spell is being cast simultaneously with the cause of the trigger to prevent that outcome of death.
To rephrase: it is because Breath of Life is presented as *preventing* a death, and not as a revivification like Shock to the System, that I would allow it to work in that edge case.
For me to say otherwise would be to contradict how I see other spells as functioning, including Wooden Double.
"Trigger: You're critically hit..."
On paper, it's not possible to React & swap in a double after the hit has already happened. Even that spell has the same amount of "retro-causality" that a self-cast Breath of Life would need.
In story, even Hero Point re-rolls do not reverse time to change the past. Some Reactions are written in a retro-causal manner for clarity of effect / procedure, to make them work in a game system. In theory, many could use a lot of awkward language and extra words to avoid the need for retro-causality, but playability was prioritized, and tables were trusted to bridge that narrative--mechanics gap.
(I'm sure there's a couple of Reactions that actually do in-story mess with time, they are the exceptions that prove this to be a rule / default)
Yeah, the same event (gaining the Dying condition from being reduced to 0 HP) that makes you unconscious also makes you die in this case, it's not a an ordered chain of events where one comes before the other. Since the trigger allows you to preempt death, it ought to allow you to preempt unconsciousness as well here, as they happen in the same moment.
I agree. The rules parse it out in a sequence so a player can follow the logic & mechanics, but the event isn't so granular IMO. There is no length of time for which they are unconscious, but not dead in the given scenario.
I suppose one thought experiment is if someone other than the caster were in the same situation; Wounded to where they die when dropped to zero hit points. The target gets struck with a killing blow & revived by Breath of Life; generally I'd picture that as dying from the blow and falling, thus the BoL stops that, the person's standing and still holds their weapon. That would lend itself to the OP working, while if one demands they must fall first before dying, that feels unnecessary.
Funnily enough the spell's quite useful by/on NPCs who normally die when hit to zero hit points. Well worth a higher level slot as you're nearly guaranteed to use it if fighting PCs plus likely have lots of slots you won't be using due to brevity of life/screentime.
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Breath of Life does actually work against things that kill the target instantly as long as they aren't death effects and do leave remains. These effects include Massive Damage, the rogue's Master Strike, the morrowkin's Swallow Future (doomed 4 without the death trait), and the mudraki's Pull Apart (sliced to pieces means your pieces are still there).
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Check again *why* you are actually unconscious when you go to 0. The only thing that makes you unconscious is the Dying condition. If it weren't for the Dying condition saying 'While you have this condition, you're unconscious', you would not be. But the Dying condition is also what kills you. So, the two (going unconscious and dying) are simultaneous.
This is not correct. See Getting Knocked Out pg. 410 Player Core
Player characters... don't automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out...
As a player character, when you're reduced to 0 Hit Points, you're knocked out with the following effects:
Move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.
Gain the dying 1 condition.
RAW the dying condition does not give you unconscious, its that you fall unconscious and then gain the dying condition. Falling to 0 HP causes you to be "knocked out." The Unconscious condition stats that "You're sleeping or have been knocked out." When you hit 0 HP, you are knocked out, which causes you to become unconscious.
The exception here proves the rule. "If the damage was dealt by a nonlethal attack or nonlethal effect, you don't gain the dying condition; you're instead unconscious with 0 Hit Points." Being at 0 HP from a non-lethal effect still 1) moves you in initiative, and 2) causes you to be unconscious, but does not give you dying.
Check again *why* you are actually unconscious when you go to 0. The only thing that makes you unconscious is the Dying condition. If it weren't for the Dying condition saying 'While you have this condition, you're unconscious', you would not be. But the Dying condition is also what kills you. So, the two (going unconscious and dying) are simultaneous.
No they're not. Going to 0 HP makes you unconscious. This happens even if you never gain Dying.
As a player character, when you're reduced to 0 Hit Points, you're knocked out with the following effects:
Move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.
Gain the dying 1 condition. If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead. If you have the wounded condition, increase your dying value by an amount equal to your wounded value.If the damage was dealt by a nonlethal attack or nonlethal effect, you don't gain the dying condition; you're instead unconscious with 0 Hit Points.
Since being at 0 HP makes you Unconscious, you aren't conscious to use a reaction and thus can't cast Breath of Life. If the trigger happened before the damage and prevented the damage then it could work, but that isn't how the spell works either.
the morrowkin's Swallow Future (doomed 4 without the death trait)
This one doesn't work. Breath of Life doesn't remove Doomed, so while it can heal you and you get back up... you're still Doomed 4 and immediately die again.
the morrowkin's Swallow Future (doomed 4 without the death trait)This one doesn't work. Breath of Life doesn't remove Doomed, so while it can heal you and you get back up... you're still Doomed 4 and immediately die again.
But think of how healthy you'll look...under whatever detritus you've accumulated in battle.
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Ummm...Guys? Everyone knows when a character is dead! Their eyes become Xs
and their tongue sticks out. It's universal!
XD
the morrowkin's Swallow Future (doomed 4 without the death trait)This one doesn't work. Breath of Life doesn't remove Doomed, so while it can heal you and you get back up... you're still Doomed 4 and immediately die again.
It kills you when your maximum dying value is reduced to zero. There's no ongoing effect afterward that keeps killing you.
But I would expect you'd still be easy to finish off. Any dying condition would kill you, and I assume the GM would rule that any increase to your doomed value would also kill you.
Funnily enough the spell's quite useful by/on NPCs who normally die when hit to zero hit points. Well worth a higher level slot as you're nearly guaranteed to use it if fighting PCs plus likely have lots of slots you won't be using due to brevity of life/screentime.
The GM might determine that villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these [dying] rules as well.
I think if the enemies' healing magic would have a disproportionate effect on them, it's only fair to have them use the dying rules for that battle. The GM shouldn't be forgoing that in an effort to give the enemies a stronger impact than the players could normally get out of the same spell.
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It kills you when your maximum dying value is reduced to zero. There's no ongoing effect afterward that keeps killing you.the morrowkin's Swallow Future (doomed 4 without the death trait)This one doesn't work. Breath of Life doesn't remove Doomed, so while it can heal you and you get back up... you're still Doomed 4 and immediately die again.
Your maximum dying value is still zero. Therefore you die. That is stated flat out in Doomed. Nothing in that says this is a one time thing and if you somehow survive it happening you can keep your dying value at zero as if nothing happened.
You meet the condition in Doomed: you die. Full stop.
Breath of Life changes nothing about that. Since it stops you from dying RAW, you're still Doomed 4 after it goes off, and thus you immediately die.
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It kills you when your maximum dying value is reduced to zero. There's no ongoing effect afterward that keeps killing you.the morrowkin's Swallow Future (doomed 4 without the death trait)This one doesn't work. Breath of Life doesn't remove Doomed, so while it can heal you and you get back up... you're still Doomed 4 and immediately die again.Your maximum dying value is still zero. Therefore you die. That is stated flat out in Doomed. Nothing in that says this is a one time thing and if you somehow survive it happening you can keep your dying value at zero as if nothing happened.
You meet the condition in Doomed: you die. Full stop.
Breath of Life changes nothing about that. Since it stops you from dying RAW, you're still Doomed 4 after it goes off, and thus you immediately die.
If your maximum dying value is ever reduced to 0, you instantly die.
The reduction itself is what kills you. Remaining at 0 does not kill you on its own. Otherwise it would simply say:
"If your maximum dying value is ever 0, you instantly die."
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The reduction itself is what kills you. Remaining at 0 does not kill you on its own. Otherwise it would simply say:
"If your maximum dying value is ever 0, you instantly die."
I'm gonna be honest: that's some serious 3.5 era rules lawyer BS and if you tried that at my table I'd laugh because I'd assume you were joking.
PF2 rules are not written like a technical manual and the wording is not so exact that "oh I somehow avoided death when I reached a maximum dying value of 0, so now I can stay there with total impunity" is actually an even remotely reasonable interpretation. No RPG is written this way and anytime players try to treat it like they are, the outcomes are total absurdity.
Your maximum dying value is 0. You die. Full stop.
If you don't have the dying condition, then you don't have a dying value, so it's not possible that your dying value reached your maximum dying value. A max dying value of zero only kills you when you reach it as outlined in the doomed condition.
But more importantly, doomed 4 passively and constantly killing you is far more of a troll reading than what I'm suggesting.
"I cast Breath of Life to prevent my ally's death."
"Your ally survives. Then they die immediately because they still meet a condition for being dead."
Obviously, the target shouldn't become impervious to doomed 4 either. If they gain the dying condition at doomed 4, then they should die immediately. Later effects that would increase the doomed condition should likely also kill the target. After all, we regularly infer death effect damage against targets already at 0 HP to be "reducing them to 0 HP."