Finesse a guitar

[thelemonache]

Hi! I would argue that a guitar-like weapon is a one handed bludgeoning, right? Let's operate on that theory for now. How would i finesse it?

The specific build: A Duettist/Striker Bard with two levels of Eldritch Guardian (to give familiar all my combat feats). Uses Shikigami Style with the cantrip Summon Instrument, and Equipment Trick to let me treat it as a weapon (so I can use weapon buffing/altering stuff like weapon finesse). STR is too easy!! Let's go dex!!! :)

[Pizza Lord]

thelemonache wrote:

I would argue that a guitar-like weapon is a one handed bludgeoning, right?

I, on the other hand, would argue that it is more likely a two-handed bludgeoning weapon. Sure, someone could hold or even swing it, but people can do that with two-handed swords or a folding chair, but I think the assumed and normal use for a 'baseline effective strike', is swinging it two-handed.

thelemonache wrote:

Let's operate on that theory for now. How would i finesse it?

Fair enough, we will operate on your theory and assume you can declare it a one-handed weapon equivalent. Weapon Finesse lets you apply your Dex 'With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain'. A guitar is none of these things. Equipment Trick (Guitar) would let you use it as a normal weapon or improvised one, whichever is better, but that won't make it a light weapon for Weapon Finesse (or a rapier or a spiked chain).

Space Saver:

------------------------------------------
I don't see anything stopping you from taking the feats you named. Equipment Trick (Guitar) would let you use it without improvised penalties. That doesn't make it a weapon though for taking feats, since the feat doesn't say it does that. You could also probably just take Catch Off-Guard to do that and it would likely be more effective (unless you were looking to take the Instrument Trick (Ruffian's Riff), but that will only let you count it as a masterwork weapon with performance (which could be important, but I don't think it is).

To take Shikigami Style, you need Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, so you'll be treating it without improvised weapon penalties (and treating unarmed foes as flatfooted) already. I just don't see how you can Finesse it without maybe some class talent or ability that I am not seeing yet (but there's so many I could have missed it). I mean, other than using Throw Anything, of course, to remove the penalty for throwing it... it has a range increment of 10 feet, but as a ranged attack you would be using your Dex to hit anyway.

Otherwise, the only workaround would be if you could design a new weapon, like the iron flute in the Creating New Weapons thing. Make a War Lute or Iron Lute or something like a guitar, and then give it the Finesse property (and Musical Instrument, etc.). Even then, that can only be applied to a one-handed weapon, which I don't consider a guitar or a lute. Or you could make it an exotic weapon. Then it takes a feat to use it properly... but that's just a feat you wouldn't have spend taking Equipment Trick (Guitar) or Catch Off-Guard to use without penalties, but yeah, that still wouldn't work with your plan to use summon instrument and Shikigami style for extra damage increases (but you could add those onto the weapon design), so probably not what you were looking for. Maybe someone else will know a workaround.
----------------------------------------------

TL/DR
Maybe what you would want is a gittern, that's a smaller-sized stringed instrument than a lute or guitar, and that I could see as a one-handed bludgeoning weapon, and there can be easier ways to make that finessable.

[thelemonache]

I was really hoping not to get hung up on a side argument about the size, so again lets operate under the stated assumption. Modern guitars for sure i would say are 2 handers, but I have an old classical guitar in my basement that is definitely within category, and a backpacking guitar that's even smaller.

Imp Weapons are crucially not weapons, so you normally cant take things that affect weapons with it or require you to be holding a weapon etc. Weapon finesse falls into that category, thus if you ever aim to take finesse, you first must at least have equipment trick, and you are correct, it doesn't make it light.

So...the question remains how do i finesse it? :) There's got to be a weird class/feat combo out there to pull it off, right? Effortless Lace wont work since its being summoned every combat, and arguably doesn't have a "grip." Hinyasi lets you treat imp weapons as weapons from the close fighter group, but not yet enough to qualify for finesse on its own. Any ideas?

[happykj]

There is an NPC from an earlier book "NPC Guide", Illian Glanadrian

Weapon finesse is applied when she is using improvised violin bow. So i guess Weapon finesse can be applied to improvised weapon, unless this NPC is just an early exception. Though your weapon must still be light.

An alternate way is to use a smaller sized guitar, which cause a -2 penalty for inappropriate size (I'm not sure how "inappropriate size" would work for imp weapon though), and your character probably will have problem playing it as an instrument.

[Oli Ironbar]

As advice, there are 1H finesse weapons and 2H finesse weapons. As rules, improv weapons have you work with the GM, so find a weapon that lines up with Light, Rapier, Elven Curve Blade or such.

My angle would be for a Flying V body on an electric and call it the Curve Blade, full distortion but good pick-ups, mash the frets with one hand but play it Spanish on the other.

Extra damage points for stringing it right and playing left like Jimi.

[thelemonache]

Oli Ironbar wrote:

My angle would be for a Flying V body on an electric and call it the Curve Blade, full distortion but good pick-ups, mash the frets with one hand but play it Spanish on the other.

Extra damage points for stringing it right and playing left like Jimi.

That sounds awesome haha

[thelemonache]

I know Fighters can do it, but not until level 9 which is way too late in the game.

"Fighter’s Finesse (Ex) The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option."

[Mysterious Stranger]

I don’t think you are going to find something in the rules that allows this. The only way you are going to do this is with some sort of homebrew feat. If the GM is willing create a feat that allows you to use a guitar with weapon finesse.

In all honesty I think using STR with a guitar is much more appropriate. When I envision using a guitar in combat I am thinking of a heavy meatal performer smashing things with it. I simply cannot visualize how to use the guitar with weapon finesse.

[I grok do u]

I thought everyone knew a guitar is an axe. So take a level of swashbuckler and use dwarf favored class option:

Dwarf (Advanced Class Guide pg. 69): Add 1/4 to the swashbuckler’s effective class level to determine the extra damage she deals because of the precise strike deed when wielding a light pick or a heavy pick. If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon, and she gains this benefit when wielding the appropriate weapon for the feat as well.

Rock on!

[thelemonache]

I grok do u wrote:

I thought everyone knew a guitar is an axe. So take a level of swashbuckler and use dwarf favored class option:

Dwarf (Advanced Class Guide pg. 69): Add 1/4 to the swashbuckler’s effective class level to determine the extra damage she deals because of the precise strike deed when wielding a light pick or a heavy pick. If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon, and she gains this benefit when wielding the appropriate weapon for the feat as well.

Rock on!

i love it hehe

[Andy Brown]

I grok do u wrote:

Dwarf (Advanced Class Guide pg. 69): Add 1/4 to the swashbuckler’s effective class level to determine the extra damage she deals because of the precise strike deed when wielding a light pick or a heavy pick.

How much extra damage do you get with a guitar pick?

[Azothath]

Build Advice: El Kabong!, 2020

[Pizza Lord]

Andy Brown wrote:

How much extra damage do you get with a guitar pick?

I think picks typically do x3 critical damage...

[thelemonache]

i was thinking more like shurikens hehe