How Would You Adjudicate This? PC Awoken With A Knife At Their Throat

[Chrion]

There may be specific rules about this that I just haven't come across but it seems like this kind of thing happens often in adventuring media but it doesn't seem like there are clear rules for how to handle this in game.

There is more than one PC in this situation in my game, but for simplicities sake let's just say it's one PC.

The PC is sleeping, no armor or weapons within reach, but their gear is in the same room. They are awoken to find that a group of enemies has surrounded them and one of them has a blade at the PCs throat. The PC is utterly outnumbered.

First of all, its not clear to me whether this PC should be considered helpless or not. They do seem to be "completely at an opponent’s mercy", but not in such a way that would allow for the enemy to, for example, spend a full round to coup de grace them.

Flat footed, on the other hand, just doesn't seem right either. It doesn't seem to appropriately reflect the disadvantage the PC is at relative to their opponents.

So, how screwed is this PC? How would you rule this? Maybe if the PC tries to get away the enemy gets an auto crit but not a coup de grace?

Hopefully I haven't simply overlooked rules that address cases like this specifically but if I have I'd be happy to learn about them.

Thanks!

[Diego Rossi]

The PC isn't helpless. He is not "completely at an opponent’s mercy". Even in RL a person could be able to surprise the opponent and avoid his attack.
What the guy with the knife is doing is having a ready action to attack the PC if he doesn't comply with his demands.
Nothing more.
No automatic success for the attack, no automatic critical hit.
Sure, the attack has a lot of bonuses: prone opponent, no armor, etc. Probably the guy with the knife will get one or more attacks of opportunity, besides the readied attack, depending on what the PC is doing.

[Chrion]

Thanks for this reply! I can understand you're take on this. I have a few issues with it but, at the very least, its not clear to me that you can ready an action outside of combat. The "ready" rules don't explicitly say you can't but it is pretty heavily implied that you can't.

You can wait for, say, an orc to come around a corner and then bonk him, in which case you will get a surprise round, but that's not a readied action.

It doesn't seem to make sense to give the enemy, in this case, a surprise round either since the the PC and the enemy are both fully aware of each other.

It seems to me that the life of the PC is in immediate danger due to the knife at their throat. People wouldn't do this to other people unless this posed significant risk to the other persons life. And, while I agree that it is possible to surprise the person holding the weapon or even to come away entirely unscathed, both those things seems pretty unlikely to me.

Looking forward to your reply!

[Phoebus Alexandros]

I think it's important to consider that Helpless is a rules-defined condition. Much like a lot of other rules don't necessarily best reflect "real life" experience, Helpless in the Pathfinder sense is distinct from helpless as we understand the word.

From Conditions:

Conditions said wrote:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

Logically, then, "completely at an opponent's mercy" cannot include a character that is able to move, that is unbound, or (if not one of those first two) that is conscious. Waking up to find a dagger at your throat is certainly a dire situation in Pathfinder, but it's not Helpless in the game sense.

[Chrion]

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

I think it's important to consider that Helpless is a rules-defined condition. Much like a lot of other rules don't necessarily best reflect "real life" experience, Helpless in the Pathfinder sense is distinct from helpless as we understand the word.

From Conditions:

Conditions said wrote:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

Logically, then, "completely at an opponent's mercy" cannot include a character that is able to move, that is unbound, or (if not one of those first two) that is conscious. Waking up to find a dagger at your throat is certainly a dire situation in Pathfinder, but it's not Helpless in the game sense.

Thanks for your reply! Yeah, there is a sense in which the PC is "at their opponents mercy", but the PC doesn't seem to be "at the opponents mercy" in the relevant sense of the rules in this case. But, again, flat-footed doesn't seem to capture the direness of the situation. So, I'm trying to figure out how best to adjudicate the situation in such a way that will reflect the danger the PC is in, but, at the same time, will be fair to the PC and faithful to the rules.

[Azothath]

Chrion wrote:

There may be specific rules about this that I just haven't come across but it seems like this kind of thing happens often in adventuring media but it doesn't seem like there are clear rules for how to handle this in game.

There is more than one PC in this situation in my game, but for simplicities sake let's just say it's one PC.

The PC is sleeping, no armor or weapons within reach, but their gear is in the same room. They are awoken to find that a group of enemies has surrounded them and one of them has a blade at the PCs throat. The PC is utterly outnumbered.

First of all, its not clear to me whether this PC should be considered helpless or not. They do seem to be "completely at an opponent’s mercy", but not in such a way that would allow for the enemy to, for example, spend a full round to coup de grace them.

Flat footed, on the other hand, just doesn't seem right either. It doesn't seem to appropriately reflect the disadvantage the PC is at relative to their opponents.

So, how screwed is this PC? How would you rule this? Maybe if the PC tries to get away the enemy gets an auto crit but not a coup de grace?

Hopefully I haven't simply overlooked rules that address cases like this specifically but if I have I'd be happy to learn about them.

Thanks!

*George Takei* Ohh MYyy

well, we are after the fact and you're the GM of this game. You don't really need a peanut gallery second guessing your high drama moment.
If you didn't plan this high drama moment and just acted on an opportunity... lol... be merciful, make your rolls and let it play out. Heads will roll and emotions flare but it'll be over soon. TPK moments happen.
Let be be clear - It's not a GM success unless planned and the recovery is planned with a suitable denouement.
These kinda of things happen from; 1) randomly. 2) due to Party strategy failure or stupidity. 3) a misunderstanding of the game's theme/style. 4) good planning of a trappy CR using battlefield control and the PCs following a lead blindly (see various Scenarios by K. Baird).

I'll use two roles & a descriptor: foe, ally, target(an ally).
The procedure - (I didn't do this rigorously, it's summarized)
1) foe is ready to act, he sneaks up on the target. He makes a stealth check.
Those in the vicinity get a perception check vs the foe's Stealth +10 to wake up. This is your first surprise check. I'm assuming a cycle of failures here but a success means go to #1S.
1F) If the check is failed the foe acts without an issue doing damage vs a target denied it's Dex (-5 AC at Dex 0), prone, and maybe -2 AC as non-moving (like an object, see Damaging Objects, it's a GM call). A Fort save vs death may or may not be applicable depending on the foe's class abilities.
1S) If the check succeeds the Ally/target wakes up. This will generally set the distance between foe & target ally. Check surprise.

Check Surprise as normal for all in the area (remember range penalties) and the above first success can be used here, then Initiative. We are looking at a standard action. You could have used surprise in the first round but kinda assumed the sleeping ally failed and took an attack above leading to Combat. After the first "surprise" check, you can get into a cycle of failed perception checks even with the +2 to 5 for sounds of (assassination) combat.
2) damage will or will not have happened leading to a circumstance modifier for surprise. You get Initiative and Surprise. Carry on.
At best the ally target is prone but awake. At worst another round of damage. Then you hit Initiative.

Ready an Action takes Player and GM agreement, otherwise No. One side generally cannot dictate this action. The GM needs clear prep (whether the PCs know it or not).

[Tom Sampson]

Generally speaking, waking up in this fashion would result in a surprise round where the players' party is surprised. However, depending on Perception checks (yes, you can make Perception checks in your sleep, but this increases the DC of a successful Perception check by +10) some of them might notice and wake up also. You could have one player (the one with the knife at the throat) wake up for free because the assailants are shaking that person awake to make their threats, but this is assuming you are directly starting a combat encounter. If you're waking up the party for a dialogue of making threats and whatnot, the entire party could wake up before combat starts, in which case there is no surprise round. But then again, it's possible only the person shaken awake wakes up and no one else does while talking before combat begins. It might actually be interesting to see what the players do while the villains speak.

As for readying actions outside of combat, this is generally allowed, especially for a thing like a discussion with someone at gunpoint/knifepoint/etc. The readied action and reason for playing things out round-by-round (unless the rounds will just consist of readying the same action continuously) just needs to make sense.

[Pizza Lord]

This is Rules, but sometimes you need to make your own call when a situation isn't covered.

The issue is that on one hand, you don't want to allow a Ready or Refocus (an obsolete term where a person would basically set their Initiative to 20 +/- Dex mod, which was done away with because you could just Delay to whenever). If you are not going to allow one type of action because it isn't combat, but then not go with another thing (the flat-footed penalty), which is basically only used in combat or at the start, then you're going to run into these problems.

It is perfectly acceptable for you to apply a penalty or a rule to an out of combat or not-quite-combat or starting of combat situation based on a condition or rule for combat (for balance purposes). Just like they use a Sickened penalty for a lot of conditions (being dizzy or ill or drunk, etc.).

You just need to figure out what is fair when the rules aren't explicit. Having a knife held at your throat should be a disadvantage, it should have problems for that person, the person holding the blade literally against someone's should have an easier time not only making contact, but at a vulnerable spot (presumably).

It is perfectly acceptable for you to if not allow a Ready to strike, to assume that the knife-holder is considered to have a 20 on their Initiative (modified by Dex) which only means it's likely they go first, but not assured, because there's plenty of scenes and movies and such where someone is legitimately fast enough to beat them, but they need both luck and reflexes.

It's also perfectly acceptable to just add a bonus to hit, or assume it ignores Dex (whether they're flat-footed or not) and thus sneak attack applies, or even that if it hits, it's an automatic confirmed critical (or you could just say it's an automatic threat if it hits, and then roll for confirmation).

It's still a knife/dagger, which is x2. You're always going to get people just ignoring realistic threats which should generate role-playing or actual reactions. Otherwise you just get players saying, "I jump off the five-story building, it's just 5d6 damage anyway." Just to avoid waiting for the elevator, not because there's a dragon or a bomb going off. Rules or no, at that point you can start assigning Con damage for broken bones (which aren't a rule either, but we know they're a thing).

Otherwise, you are actually cheapening the game and the drama and risk and the reward. Let's be honest, we can assume the guy could have just coup de grace them, get an autohit, autocrit, free damage (+ sneak attack), and forced a death save and still had a flat-footed target if they lived and still probably go before them.

You're already taking steps to help them out. Let's be honest here. Presumably they had a chance to set guards, they had a chance to cast defensive spells like alarm or rope trick (whether they had them prepared or not), and presumably one or more had a chance to hear or see them coming with Perception checks. You need to make tense or dangerous situations seem dangerous.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Combat starts when the one of the parties (or individuals) become aware of the other. That is further reinforced by the surprise rules. If both parties decide they are not fighting it drops out of combat without anything happening. If one party is doing something like sneaking up and putting a knife to their opponent’s throats combat is still going on.

Once the surprise round is over that does not necessarily mean the other side becomes aware of their opponents. If they are sleeping, they still must make perception roll modified by the fact they are sleeping. If they fail this, they are still sleeping and do not get an action. During this time the party that is awake can take any action they normally could in combat including readying an action. This continues until the sleeping party wakes up. During this time, they are considered helpless. Once the sleeping characters wake up, they are no longer helpless but are flatfooted until they get their first action. Each round of combat will give the sleeping characters a perception roll modified for being sleeping to notice the other party.

So, in this situation the character holding the knife will have a readied action. Depending on the trigger of the readied action there is a good possibility the sleeping character will be considered flatfooted and maybe even helpless. If the trigger is waking up, he will be helpless (Readied action occur just before the trigger), If it is moving at all he will be flatfooted if the character moves. If the readied action allows for any kind of response to the character, he will not be flatfooted. Since coup de grace is normally a full round action you cannot ready a coup de grace. But you can ready a normal attack.

[Chrion]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Combat starts when the one of the parties (or individuals) become aware of the other. That is further reinforced by the surprise rules. If both parties decide they are not fighting it drops out of combat without anything happening. If one party is doing something like sneaking up and putting a knife to their opponent’s throats combat is still going on.

Can you say a little more about this please? Simple awareness of another party can't be what starts combat. This makes it sound like if a PC is walking down a street and sees an NPC walk around a corner, then combat would start because one of the party\parties has become aware of the other.

Maybe I could ask this a different way. The PCs go to sleep and then the bad guys decide that it is time to capture them. When does combat start? When the bad guys make the decision to take unwanted action against the PCs? When the particular bad guy with the knife lays eyes on the sleeping PC who's throat he is going to put his knife to?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to understand more what you are describing would mean and how it would work.

Thanks!

[Taja the Barbarian]

Chrion wrote:

There may be specific rules about this that I just haven't come across but it seems like this kind of thing happens often in adventuring media but it doesn't seem like there are clear rules for how to handle this in game.

There is more than one PC in this situation in my game, but for simplicities sake let's just say it's one PC.

The PC is sleeping, no armor or weapons within reach, but their gear is in the same room. They are awoken to find that a group of enemies has surrounded them and one of them has a blade at the PCs throat. The PC is utterly outnumbered.

First of all, its not clear to me whether this PC should be considered helpless or not. They do seem to be "completely at an opponent’s mercy", but not in such a way that would allow for the enemy to, for example, spend a full round to coup de grace them.

Flat footed, on the other hand, just doesn't seem right either. It doesn't seem to appropriately reflect the disadvantage the PC is at relative to their opponents.

So, how screwed is this PC? How would you rule this? Maybe if the PC tries to get away the enemy gets an auto crit but not a coup de grace?

Hopefully I haven't simply overlooked rules that address cases like this specifically but if I have I'd be happy to learn about them.

Thanks!

The simple fact is this sort of encounter just doesn't work in a Hit Point based system and should just be avoided in actual play...

[mosttornbrain]

What is the intent of the person holding the knife? If they had intended to kill the player, they could have done it while the PC was sleeping via a coup de grace, since at that point the PC was helpless, but now that the PC is awake, they are no longer helpless if someone is simply holding a knife to their throat.

If you are trying to work within the rules-as-written to reflect the PC is in a dire situation, then just a knife to the throat is not necessarily it, depending on the level of the PC. But, adding they are surrounded by a group of enemies, it would not be in the PC's best interest to try to fight their way out.

Or, you could rule the NPC had pounced on the sleeping PC and grappled or pinned them automatically (since they were sleeping and helpless) and that is what woke them up. And that would make the situation more dire from the PC's point of view - being pinned *and* having a knife to their throat.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Combat is an abstraction that allows the game to function. Its sole purpose is to give a framework that allows complex actions to be broken down into clearly defined and manageable parts. The laws of physics do not change because combat has started.

Realistically speaking combat begins when it is needed. From a practical standpoint combat begins when any creature attempts to perform any action that must be done in combat or takes any action that another player finds questionable. That is why the idea that you cannot ready an action out of combat makes no sense. By readying an action, you are starting combat.

Just because combat started does not mean that anything must happen. In a sense every time the PC’s encounter something combat can start. In most cases if combat is not needed it end at the same time. In those cases, the GM simply ignores the fact combat started and stopped.

[I grok do u]

In general, as soon as either party (PCs or NPCs) is aware of and decides to take hostile action, combat is initiated - roll perception checks for surprise (with +10 DC for sleeping characters) and for initiative. Sleeping creatures get another perception check every round, until they are awake and aware of the enemies.

Key question about the scenario, as others have touched on, are what goals do you have as GM?

Is this a story beat? Make sure you're clear to the players that this is narrative encounter - like a cutscene.
Is this a setup for a dangerous combat encounter? Roll NPC stealth against PC perception with appropriate modifiers. Then act on initiative, remember that speaking is a free action - within reason for about 6 seconds.
Is this a "social" encounter/challenge? Use skills like bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive. Maybe adapt some ideas from Ultimate Intrigue.

For the threatening villain in the night trope: PCs get a perception check. If they fail, one is awoken by the knife to the throat with a breathily whispered command to "remain silent and still or they and their allies will die now." I would then tell the player that their PC can clearly recognize that disobedience will likely be fatal, but that it is equally clear that listening will likely result in no conflict. Then the player can decide whether to play along peacefully (monologue begins) or try to fight (initiative rolls). PCs that succeed on the initial perception roll, get to wake up to the realization they are surrounded and outnumbered, with the same threat a bit more gruffily delivered.
However, if I wanted to do this without combat, I would probably use either the threatening note method or the past-tense narrative for these kind of "scripted" events.

[Claxon]

Unfortunately, while in real life a knife to your throat is a deadly situation that can quickly result in death, but barring some special ability of the knife wielder it is unlikely to be the case.

Sometimes with something like this you need to be more narrative and not run it as combat.

[Mysterious Stranger]

In any game you can break things up into 3 different kinds of scenes. The first is combat scenes, which are highly structured and defined by the game system. The second are non-combat scenes, which are unstructured but still allow the Player control of the character. Often non-combat scenes have little or nothing to do with the rules. The third type is the narrative scene in which the players have no control of the character. While narrative scenes are a valuable tool for the GM they should be used sparingly, and the GM should make it clear when he is using it.

The transition between the types of scenes can happen quickly especially between non-combat and combat. Since the GM is in full control of the narrative scene the transition is a little trickier. The narrative scene last as long as the GM needs it to, but it removes the players control over their character. Many players absolutely hate that, which is why it should only be used when necessary.

Since the OP was asking how to handle the situation this does not sound the situation is still in a narrative scene. At this point if it was a narrative scene, it has transitioned into a combat scene.

[Chrion]

Thanks everyone for your posts!

I don't have a plan for how things are going to go, as some have suggested I should. How it's going to play out (combat, non-combat, etc.) is almost entirely going to depend on the decisions the PCs make.

The PCs made a decision and the enemies made their decision too. The PCs could have figured out that it might be a bad idea to sleep in this place, but they didn't for a bunch of reasons. But that's like...a feature, not a bug. This is what makes it fun and the PCs are gonna feel like gods if they make it our of this alive, which is also great, that's kind of what you want.

That doesn't mean, however, that I can't *guess* at what might be coming up. Maybe the PCs will try to talk their way out of it, maybe they will go along with the cultists until they feel like have an exploitable advantage, or maybe someone will just immediately swing on the guy with the knife at their throat.

In thinking about that eventuality (if someone swings at the NPC with the knife), I was unsure how to be fair to the PCs but also "fair" to the NPCs. I just didn't quite know how to adjudicate things fairly, i.e., what bonuses, penalties, and conditions to assign to everyone. I'm fine with playing a little fast and loose with things when need be, but I didn't know if this was a case where that was needed and I didn't know exactly how fast and how loose I would need to play things.

But, I think I have a better idea of how things should go if things go immediately into active combat.