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Alright... so there are now at least 3 different boons that give options to Red Mantis. One from each of the Mantis themed adventures and of course they all work totally differently.
1 "A character of your choice gains access to the Red Mantis Assassin dedication feat and all associated feats"
This gives you access to the dedication and all the feats, I think including the rare ones. You do still need to meet the prerequisites of the dedication which include training in sawtooth sabers for which it neither provides proficiency nor access to.
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2: "...has access to the Red Mantis Assassin archetype and all common or uncommon options which require membership in the Red Mantis Assassins"
This one doesn't give you the rare feats, but does get you all common or uncommon options that "require membership in the Red Mantis Assassins." The Sawtooth Saber doesn't actually list an access condition, in fact I'm not sure there are any options "which require membership in the Red Mantis Assassins" other than the archetype. And of course proficiency is still an issue.
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3: "Your characters may choose Achaekek as their deity for all relevant character options. Such characters alignments must be lawful neutral. Any characters that follow Achaekek gain access to the sawtooth saber. This boon does not grant access to the Red Mantis Dedication feat or other options that require evil alignment"
Obviously a pre-remaster boon. I think access to the deity post remaster is unnecessary, so all this one does is give access to the Sawtooth Saber which is obviously helpful for the other two (although doesn't solve proficiency)
Am I missing something, have I misunderstood how they work?
Thanks.
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Leiden
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A second inititation boon should suffice for access to the sawtooth saber, but it would be nice to have this confirmed. Otherwise the boons basically have no use case.I'm sorry, I may be totslly missing something but how does secondary initiation give access to sawtooth sabers?
It doesn't as written, but I'm saying that it should, since you're then part of the only and exclusive organisation that makes use of the weapon. Unless the intent of OPM is to have you combine adventure boons to make viable use of them :)
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Since the two boons give access to the archetype and the archetype requires you to be trained in sawtooth saber, I think it would be reasonable to assume that they also give you access to the saber. Not giving access to the saber seems pretty blatantly to be "too bad to be true": "Congrats, you get this boon for an archetype that you can never use."
I think most reasonable GMs/VOs would look at the issue and go "... Well, obviously you can get the (pretty sucky) saber if you can get the actual archetype" but just to be safe from potential table variation, I personally I would hunt down the last boon that also gives access to the saber, because RAW that is what you need. (even though boon hunting is generally frowned upon, this current bad/missing wording on the boon kinda forces you into it).
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For areas that are grey, it works fine if its something that happens in play that isn't vital to the functioning/identity of the character.
But for a fundamental question of is the character legal build is legal at all isn't really an acceptable solution, especially for the boon for the exciting new special.
This isn't a case of the rules being ambiguous, and one interpretation being functional and one being non-functional. It's a case of the shinny new Special boon being laregly non-functional.
While I agree that telling people sorry your new boon is useless, joke's on you for trying to use it is an unreasonable answer. I don't think we're going to ignore the Prerequisites to this uncommon archetype because we don't like them is a reasonable option either.
In my mind the only reasonable option is to attempt to bring attention to this issue so that it can be fixed.
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Boon 1 requires an additional acp purchase of the Secondary Initiation boon. After that acp purchase, the character has access to train in sawtooth sabers and would be considered a member of the red mantis assassins. As for the worship of Achaekek, that would presumably be covered by the boon 1 itself.
Boon 2 could be read to not need the purchase of Secondary Initiation. Though, access to doesn't necessarily mean that one is a member of the organization. So, just to be safe, I'd suggest the purchase of the SI boon. So, pretty much like boon 1.
Boon 3 is just access to worship Achaekek.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Boon 1 requires an additional acp purchase of the Secondary Initiation boon...
Boon 2 could be read to not need the purchase of Secondary Initiation. ... I'd suggest the purchase of the SI boon. So, pretty much like boon 1.
Boon 3 is just access to worship Achaekek.
Secondary Initiation does not give access to sawtooth saber. Sawtooth saber does not have "Access: You are a member of the red mantis assassins" and it doesn't have "access: You are from Mediogalti island" either, so neither Secondary initiation nor world traveler give access to it. Which is why this is such a hassle.
Additional issue with boon 2 is that while it says you get "access to all common and uncommon options which require membership in the red mantis assassins", there's actually nothing saying that sawtooth saber requires membership in it.
It is very Reasonable to deduct that the boon means sawtooth sabers too, but that is not what the boon says.
Contributor
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Here's my assumption:
Paizo would not offer a 'gotcha' boon to players. If you have access to the Red Mantis dedication, clearly you have access to the sawtooth sabers as well.
I'd love if they edited the boon to make this more clear, but that is just how I'm going to run with it if anyone brings a Red Mantis character to my table.
Hmm
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Boon 1 requires an additional acp purchase of the Secondary Initiation boon...
Boon 2 could be read to not need the purchase of Secondary Initiation. ... I'd suggest the purchase of the SI boon. So, pretty much like boon 1.
Boon 3 is just access to worship Achaekek.
Secondary Initiation does not give access to sawtooth saber. Sawtooth saber does not have "Access: You are a member of the red mantis assassins" and it doesn't have "access: You are from Mediogalti island" either, so neither Secondary initiation nor world traveler give access to it. Which is why this is such a hassle.
Additional issue with boon 2 is that while it says you get "access to all common and uncommon options which require membership in the red mantis assassins", there's actually nothing saying that sawtooth saber requires membership in it.
It is very Reasonable to deduct that the boon means sawtooth sabers too, but that is not what the boon says.
Sure, if there is no standard way (i.e. Secondary Initiation) to gain access, then it falls in the same category as worship of Achaekek, the boon itself covers it.
As I was getting at and HMM said, boons are intended to work. They are not intended to give empty promises. The only reasonable way to interact with this boon is to presume that it gives access to things that one can not generally gain access to.
Yes, I'm aware of the wording of the boons themselves. But I, and other GMs as well, have the ability to think for ourselves. As such, I repeat, it seems pretty straightforward to me.
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This is how it appears to work to me.
Proficiency is not access-gated, only purchasing is gated.
Advanced Weapon Proficiency is proficiency in every advanced weapon, whether you can get your hands on it or not. Fighters start with this.
Weapon Proficiency allows any class with Martial Weapon Proficiency to become proficient in one advanced weapon.
Being a champion or cleric of Achaekek grants proficiency in the favored weapon.
Having either of those makes the 1st and 2nd boon work.
The 3rd boon allows you to actually buy the sawtoothed saber outside of a chronicle with one on it.
Right?
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Yeah. Proficiency is one of the requirements for the archetype. How one gets proficiency is a bit moot, there are a few ways.
Whether or not the boon gives access to proficiency or access to purchase is also a bit moot. If access is necessary for proficiency, then it would be presumed that the boon gives access. If there is no 'access to proficiency' and it is just 'access to purchase', then it pretty much ends up at the same thing. This is because it is not necessary for the character to purchase the weapon(s) to qualify for the archetype, merely gain proficiency.
As for moving forward, I think it is a solid point to suggest that 'access to proficiency' is not a thing.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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As I was getting at and HMM said, boons are intended to work. They are not intended to give empty promises. The only reasonable way to interact with this boon is to presume that it gives access to things that one can not generally gain access to.
Yes, I'm aware of the wording of the boons themselves. But I, and other GMs as well, have the ability to think for ourselves. As such, I repeat, it seems pretty straightforward to me.
And I will also rule it the same way - allowing people with the boon to play their RMA characters with sawtooth sabers, regardless of what the boon says - but that doesn't mean that the wording isn't problematic. As it's written, that's not how the boon works. The way it's written, requires a PC to have 2 of the boons to actually get a red mantis assassin with sawtooth sabers, UNLESS they make a very specific kind of build - Champion, Cleric, (Or, I think avenger/vindicator may also give access to the sawtooth saber).
It would be easier to say that needing 2 boons is not intended, if the two RMA boons were completely useless without the third one - But they are not. The two RMA boons work perfectly fine, without access to sawtooth saber, IF you can get access through some other way, like champion or Cleric. So the boons are not empty promises, they are just Limited In Scope, unless you get the third boon which expands their useability greatly.
Also, if access is not required for proficiency (through weapon profiency feat), then the archetype works just fine without access to the sawtooth saber - it's just that you can play a RMA that is trained with sawtooth sabers but doesn't actually have sawtooth sabers. Which is a bit weird, but again, the boons works even without access to the sawtooth sabers. Which is why it's so bewildering that the boons don't give access to sawtooth sabers.
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It has been specifically stated in the rules that RAW < RAI. I do not consider the wording problematic because the intent is so fantastically clear. You get to play a RMA. Therefore the boon is going to give *access* to the things you need to take the archetype. It is not going to change the proficiency requirement. You still need to find a way to gain proficiency in the advanced weapon. You still need to be a part of the organization, so you need Secondary Initiation. Worship of Achaekek is clearly intended to be a part of the boon.
I believe that fixing the wording of a clear intentioned boon is a waste of Paizo's time.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Except that it's impossible to know the RAI in this case. Both scenarios are just as plausible.
Scenario 1: The two newer boons give you access to the red mantis assassin. You can make a red mantis assassin wielding a sawtooth saber IF your class gives you access to sawtooth sabers, such as Champion or cleric, or from any class you choose if you have another way to access sawtooth sabers, such as the boon from Mark of the Mantis.
Scenario 2: The two newer boons give you access to the red mantis assassin. It's a mistake on the boons that they don't give access to the sawtooth saber. You can make an RMA from any class you choose.
Scenario one is Undesireable because it limits the boons usefulness to just a few classes, without extra hoops. Scenario two assumes that this limitation is not intentional, that it is a mistake.
The problem with scenario 2 is that we really shouldn't be assuming mistakes in sanctioning rules and boons. How about, let's say Scrounger archetype? It's from player core 2, where everything is standard availability. Maybe it's just a mistake that it lacks access condition, and we should be able to choose it freely - or any other uncommon option that's "shadow banned" by being "Standard availability" but no access condition - Just like the sawtooth saber. It's standard. It doesn't have access condition. PC needs to have something explicitly stating that you get access to it, to gain access to it.
IF the boon was completely useless without access to sawtooth sabers, the "too bad to be true" "obviously not intended" argument would be stronger. But the boon is not useless. It is perfectly useable even without access to sawtooth sabers - just at a more limited scope. And that's what really throws this problem into gear.
I mean - the archetype also requires training in the sawtooth saber. Should we also assume that the boon gives the character trained in sawtooth sabers, because otherwise only a fighter, or a human, (or cleric or champion, vindicator, or avenger) can take it at level 2 where it's clearly intentioned to be taken, as it is a level 2 feat?
Clearly not. How you get trained in the weapon, is clearly a problem the player needs to solve themselves. So why wouldn't access likewise be a problem the player needs to solve?
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Leiden
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That one has more than one answer: You mention boon 1, so I'm assuming the first one from the original post.
If you get it through the level 6 RMA archetype feat, then yes because the boon gives you access to the feat that grants it.
As a wizard at level 1, you'd need a different boon (School of the Assassin).