I was looking the guardian class over. It looks pretty strong. Has anyone tested it in play? Is it as strong as it looks? Just a real hard to kill, heavily armored tank.
I would love to learn both from the trenches and the calculators.
From the back of a napkin, I'd equate a two-handed weapon Guardian w/ a shield Fighter; having given up offense for defense (either by class or by weapon). Then the Fighter has better offensive & Press feats, but the Guardian can spend the spare action & Reaction from not using a shield to Intercept & Taunt so it seems more dynamic IMO, esp. w/ a Reach weapon/Hampering Stance/Not So Fast. Both have their tricks, so I think which suited you would depend on which of those tricks appealed to you most (and synced with the party/campaign/etc.).
I think a shield Guardian's likely overkill on defense; that shield bites into their actions & weapon die. Like Commander, it's somewhat dependent on the party bringing the offense while the Guardian keeps them chugging along.* If one had to choose whether to revive a spent shield Guardian or a different martial, as say the last PC standing, I doubt the shield Guardian would be the best choice. Thing is, that's a deep pool of defense to try to drain in the first place. Sounds so boring, though tricks from outside the class might liven it up as might the ridiculous shenanigans one can get away with when so durable.
I worry the Guardian might be trip-bait or easily neutralized in non-h.p. ways, and Intercept doesn't go that far after all a party of skirmishers & ranged attackers might not gel with you at all. I also think Guardian feats support some poor choices, i.e. Shoulder Check.
*I find it funny how a Guardian & Commander work poorly together (at least out-of-the-box) since they both support the other...supporting the other? They also work kinda poorly with themselves too. Both despite being army-themed.
IMO a guardian with champion paladin archetype would be the best option to those who want to tank.
The combination of Taunt, higher AC earlier with champion reaction to protect allies and counter-attack and Intercept Attack for emergencies can make the perfect tank character.
IMO a guardian with champion paladin archetype would be the best option to those who want to tank.
The combination of Taunt, higher AC earlier with champion reaction to protect allies and counter-attack and Intercept Attack for emergencies can make the perfect tank character.
That sounds good. Guardian with Champion Archetype to pick up Champion's Reaction.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure Guardian with Champ Decication is good.
First of all, one of the Guardian's design goals is to have a non-Divine defensive class. By taking Champ dedication, you toss that right out the window. RP aspects matter in a RPG.
From a mechanical aspect, though, you only have so many Reactions each round. If you use Champ reaction, especially at low level, you can't Intercept Strike, or Shield Block, or any of the other Guardian Reactions. At higher levels, sure, you can get extra Reactions, but they are only for the base class, so it's not like you can use them for extra Champion reactions.
Lastly, does Paladin's reaction even help a Guardian? Liberator or Redeemer, yes, they would give something new. But, Guardian already has Punishment feats, and that'll all that the Paladin reaction is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure Guardian with Champ Decication is good.
...
From a mechanical aspect, though, you only have so many Reactions each round. If you use Champ reaction, especially at low level, you can't Intercept Strike, or Shield Block, or any of the other Guardian Reactions. At higher levels, sure, you can get extra Reactions, but they are only for the base class, so it's not like you can use them for extra Champion reactions.
Guardians get a 2nd reaction at 7th-level. That's still considered low level / early game by many players.
I'm not sure Guardian with Champ Decication is good.
First of all, one of the Guardian's design goals is to have a non-Divine defensive class. By taking Champ dedication, you toss that right out the window. RP aspects matter in a RPG.
From a mechanical aspect, though, you only have so many Reactions each round. If you use Champ reaction, especially at low level, you can't Intercept Strike, or Shield Block, or any of the other Guardian Reactions. At higher levels, sure, you can get extra Reactions, but they are only for the base class, so it's not like you can use them for extra Champion reactions.
Lastly, does Paladin's reaction even help a Guardian? Liberator or Redeemer, yes, they would give something new. But, Guardian already has Punishment feats, and that'll all that the Paladin reaction is.
Yes if you are avoiding following a deity Champ archetype is bad. But if you don't care about still one of the best options available to improve the guardian survivability and protective abilities and counter-attacks.
About champion reaction, it's like Ravingdork said. You only able to get a Champion's Reaction at level 6 so one level later you will already get 2 reactions to use.
The point about have a champion reaction is to both allow you to counter-attack (something that Intercept Attack doesn't allow) and to avoid your champion to be too much damaged when protecting allies. This was I thing that I easily noticed (and many others too) about Intercept Strike since the class playtest. Once you get the damage in place of your allies, all this concentrated damage into you takes its toll, easily damaging you more than you can take.
In the final version of the class the improvement in class HP helps but doesn't solve this situation and now your own DR is smaller than it was during playtest so the frequently use of Intercept Attack concentrates all damage into you up as you may easily fall or stop to using it due to lack of HP.
Having a champion reaction helps a lot to manage these damages. You can choose between reduce the ally damage and counters if your ally have enough HP or if it's better to take the damage in its place. Each reaction have their on benefits for each situation and you just need to chose the best option.
Also the champion of justice reaction doesn't compete with guardian actions vs enemies who ignored your taunt like Proud Nail/Ring their Bell. It's the oposite because they are normal actions that still can be made along your Retributive Strike.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
With all the in class options Im not sure archtyping is the best way to go unless you are playing FA.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
With all the in class options Im not sure archtyping is the best way to go unless you are playing FA.
Often archetype feats are better than class feats. You don't want many competing options when you have a good fighting combo that works better than the alternatives. So picking up archetype options like rogue feats are often a better option than a class feat.
You are essentially saying that the Champion is just better.
That may be the case but I think everyone is going to be better off playing the Guardian like a Guardian rather than just turning it into another chasis for Champion's Reaction. By level 6 you should have Reactive Strike as well.
Guardians get a 2nd reaction at 7th-level. That's still considered low level / early game by many players.I'm not sure Guardian with Champ Decication is good.
...
From a mechanical aspect, though, you only have so many Reactions each round. If you use Champ reaction, especially at low level, you can't Intercept Strike, or Shield Block, or any of the other Guardian Reactions. At higher levels, sure, you can get extra Reactions, but they are only for the base class, so it's not like you can use them for extra Champion reactions.
They do, and it can be used for Guardian feats and class features only. Not a Champion reaction. Guardian also has a ton of feats that give or improve on their class reactions.
So, to use the Champ Reaction, you still have to use your one normal reaction to do so, so it still fights with your Guardian features, and I still don't see how Paladin gives a benefit. It's a Punishment ability, and Guardian has those.
Now, Redeemer, or Obedience would be different. That would add to the toolkit.
You are essentially saying that the Champion is just better.
That may be the case but I think everyone is going to be better off playing the Guardian like a Guardian rather than just turning it into another chasis for Champion's Reaction. By level 6 you should have Reactive Strike as well.
No because the champions (maybe except for evil ones) don't have the same self-defensive power that the guardians have. Also, the champion reaction has its own limits, like the enemy needing to be inside your aura to it can be triggered.
The main idea of have a guardian with a champion archetype (or the inverse if you which) is to get the best of both. Selecting the reaction that works best for each situation.
For example:
And so on. There are many situations that you can judge that to use one reaction is better than others.
If the point was “the champions is better” I would recommend to play as champion not as a guardian with a champion archetype.
Another interesting combination is guardian with commander archetype to take Defensive Swap reaction once it allows your AC to matter when protection an ally and additionally you can use some tactics. Yet I still prefer the champion archetype because I can get Blessed Shield or Lay on Hands too. But it's a build option.
Guardians in general are pretty good to take many martial archetypes depending what do you want to play with then.
So, to use the Champ Reaction, you still have to use your one normal reaction to do so, so it still fights with your Guardian features, and I still don't see how Paladin gives a benefit. It's a Punishment ability, and Guardian has those.
You can benefit from a Taunted enemy being off-guard to your Retributive Strike what makes it easier to hit, and this doesn't count for your MAP. Also, it doesn't compete with the Guardian's own punishment abilities like Proud Nail/Ring their Bell that you will use during your turn as normal.
That said, other champions reactions that debuff enemies are good too.