If I am playing a Large character, such as an awakened animal, and have 10 Strength, how many of me fellow PCs can I carry?
I've been looking into Bulk limitations and conversions. It looks like my character can carry 10 bulk without penalty (5 base + 0 strength, x2 for being large). However, she also treats 1 bulk as light, and light bulk as negligible. If there is one other Medium PC and two Small PCs in the party, then that's 6 + 3 + 3 = 12 bulk, which is then converted to 12 L. I can therefore carry all three without any encumbrance penalties save for the extra action costs of PCs riding PCs?
Aside from ignoring their potential gear, is that the correct way of calculating it out?
Or is it that they are they treated as 12 actual bulk, since all of them are individually more than 1 bulk? In that case, I could still carry them, but would be encumbered, or could drag them instead.
This is very much in unwritten territory.
The first question for a GM is if all bulk stuff is written from the "Medium creature PoV" and *all* numbers should be changed a la the 1-->L, or if that's not the case. (atm I'll say no, that only applies narrowly to carried items/gear)
The second question is that of how to factor in the carried creature's equipped gear.
It seems waaay to convenient to say an Alchemist at their bulk limit is as easy to carry as a cloth sorc with nearly none.
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From a gampeplay PoV, it's not going to really be likely for one PC to be able to carry another + their gear's bulk.
Yet, due to how the bulk encumbered & 100% max carry numbers are so far apart, I honestly think this rarity of outright carrying a PC is intended.
Only a STR character will able able to shoulder only a low-gear caster and genuinely be able to Stride with them.
To start factoring size differences into that dynamic, my quick houserule is that you do use the unedited creature bulk per size numbers for all sizes of PCs, but you also do benefit from the normal bulk reduction for that carried PC's gear.
That'll still keep the ability to carry PCs not looking absurd, while still allowing the size difference to matter a whole lot.
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Don't forget that encounter mode is specifically "max exertion combat" and being able to carry another person, while still Stride & Striking with genuine efficacy is a crazy feat of prowess.
Outside of combat, how you'll manage to carry/move KOed allies is imo waaay more open to allowance and hand-waving of things like bulk issues.
But being able to snatch up a creature and keep fighting *should* be done very carefully. Don't forget that everything is (should) be symmetrical.
If a PC can grab a KOed creature(s) and run away, then foes will also be able to grab those same PCs and run away.
Lot of houserules being proposed for a rules thread.
So they're not considered 12L for a Large character then.
Okay.
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Lot of houserules being proposed for a rules thread.
So they're not considered 12L for a Large character then.
Okay.
Yes, because Bulk rules (beyond typical equipment) quickly devolve into irrational conundrums. Interpreting them rationally requires more intuition and stopgap solutions than logic and rigor, even in the Rules Forum. Sadly, depending.
Hell no. Yes, each item of 1 Bulk converts to one L, but Bulk rules defy algebra (see above). Each unit of Bulk for larger items converting into 1 L Bulk would be ridiculous, and I'm shocked you'd suggest it.
Setting oddness aside, RAW seems clear: Being Large only changes Bulk for items of one Bulk (become L) and items of L Bulk (become negligible). A 2 Bulk item remains 2 Bulk, and gaining extra Bulk capacity addresses that.
So, your companions (none weighing 1 Bulk or less) remain the same Bulk to your Large PC, but your Large PC (despite having mediocre Str) can still carry three of them (Encumbered) or two (not).
In a party, swapping some 1 Bulk gear over to your PC might open up enough carrying weight for someone else to pick up one of the Small creatures for you. Cheesy, but it is what it is.
Yes, each item of 1 Bulk converts to one L, but Bulk rules defy algebra (see above). Each unit of Bulk for larger items converting into 1 L Bulk would be ridiculous, and I'm shocked you'd suggest it.
I was merely being thorough, suggesting as many different possible interpretations as I could think of in the moment.
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Or is it that they are they treated as 12 actual bulk, since all of them are individually more than 1 bulk? In that case, I could still carry them, but would be encumbered, or could drag them instead.
This is my read.
A halfling carrying a dart is equivalent to a centaur carrying a javelin.
Bulkier items (like people) seem to be “discounted” by your large size from your character’s doubling of capacity - of which Strength is a decisive factor.
Seems fair a weak centaur carrying three allies would slow up some.
Yes, each item of 1 Bulk converts to one L, but Bulk rules defy algebra (see above). Each unit of Bulk for larger items converting into 1 L Bulk would be ridiculous, and I'm shocked you'd suggest it.I was merely being thorough, suggesting as many different possible interpretations as I could think of in the moment.
You just have to play with Toy poppets and non-Pixie Sprites to convert their 1 Bulk bodies into L. That way you can carry 200 of your fellow party members... :P
You just have to play with Toy poppets and non-Pixie Sprites to convert their 1 Bulk bodies into L. That way you can carry 200 of your fellow party members... :P
Bring me another smurf!
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And it makes me very happy that this avatar joke still works.
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Lot of houserules being proposed for a rules thread.
So they're not considered 12L for a Large character then.
Okay.
If they were 1 bulk each, they would be. An object of 1 bulk becomes 1L if you put it on a large creature, but an object of 2 bulk... stays 2 bulk. It's very odd if you think about it at all.
My typical example is with carrying items. Shortsword is L bulk, Longsword is 1 bulk. Longbow is 2 bulk.
On a medium creature, 1 Longbow = 2 Longswords = 20 Shortswords (2 bulk).
If you take those exact same items and put them on a pack horse (a large creature), now you have 1 Longboow = 20 Longswords = ? Shortswords (which are now negligable bulk and thus the GM has to impose a limit).
It's never made sense and leads to some really absurd situations if you actually dig into it at all. This is one of the few things I think PF1 did better.
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This is the exact reason to why I keep each creature's bulklimit the same regarding of size and adjust bulk on an item level, Yes it is odd from a mechanics standpoint, but in reality it really just is that small enough items can be stacked onto a creature more than you would realistically have use for. This is just the way they did it.
If anything its more odd that 9 L = 0 Bulk, And a 0 str character doesn't become encumbered at 5 (their limit) or 5+1L. No they become encumbered at 6. Similarly 1999 coins is 1 bulk, but add a copper and its suddenly 2.
Split coins into bags of 1999 each and since they're 1 bulk, they become L bulk on a pack horse and you can carry 10x more of them. But add a coin and they're 2 bulk and thus stay 2 bulk on that horse. The edge cases in bulk just feel utterly nonsensical when differing sizes are involved, and it's not like "using a pack animal to carry stuff" is some unheard of powergamer situation that will almost never come up in actual play. It's quite a handy thing to do before you can afford bags of holding given how little loot you can carry without them.
And yeah, the idea that a carrying capacity of 5 actually means "you're encumbered at 6", not "you're encumbered at greater than 5" just feels wrong to me. It doesn't mean what it says.
LOL. If a player tried to put 10 bags of 1,999 coins on a horse, I'm counting it as 19,990 coins, and thus 9 Bulk, not 9 L.
If you check the coins per carrying creature (as I believe was intended), not per container, you can avoid some of the shenanigans.
When trying to evacuate a fallen comrade we found the rules a bit lacking and improvised pulling with half speed movement, a hybrid of carrying and reposition without needing 6 free bulk.
When trying to evacuate a fallen comrade, we tend not to look much farther than the 6 Bulk for Medium and 3 Bulk for Small characters. That is, we ignore their carried or worn gear's Bulk unless there is something extreme or unusual going on, like wearing full plate, or carrying a bundle of ladders.
We almost never go 6 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 15.3 Bulk.
Carrying a naked person and carrying a person decked out in leather and a few pouches should not be appreciably different in difficulty. It might even be easier, as now you have straps and things to grab onto.
LOL. If a player tried to put 10 bags of 1,999 coins on a horse, I'm counting it as 19,990 coins, and thus 9 Bulk, not 9 L.
If you check the coins per carrying creature (as I believe was intended), not per container, you can avoid some of the shenanigans.
How is it shenanigans? ANY other discrete item is counted as such so why are bags of rocks that are 1 bulk 9.99999999 l treated one way and a bag of coins with the EXACT same 1 bulk 9.99999999 l treated differently and added together? Why would coins be singled out as one individual item even when not stored as such? IMO, I'd call shenanigans on you if those bags got treated differently because one is called 'coins' and one isn't. It NEVER says [or suggests] to add all containers together in one grand total any more than you have to add all your daggers together before you adjust for Large.
Seriously, would you force someone that had 10 Marbles to add all the 200 marbles per bag BEFORE checking or just count each bag as individual items? If you aren't making them count them as a 1 bulk item, why would you make them do the same with coins?
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LOL. If a player tried to put 10 bags of 1,999 coins on a horse, I'm counting it as 19,990 coins, and thus 9 Bulk, not 9 L.
If you check the coins per carrying creature (as I believe was intended), not per container, you can avoid some of the shenanigans.
But not all of them, since the exact same thing happens when you go from 999 coins to 1000 coins, or 1999 coins to 2000 coins on a large creature. And that example didn't come from nowhere: it's literally in the rules that 1999 coins is 1 bulk and 2000 coins is 2 bulk.
So on a large creature (like a Centaur PC), 1999 coins is L bulk and 2000 coins is 2 bulk. Why is that one coin so absurdly bulky that it increases the bulk by 20 times? It makes absolutely no sense.
It only becomes shenanigans if you need to carry 10,000 coins. When you're carrying 2000 coins, giving one of them to another PC to carry reduces the bulk by massive margins.
Likewise: 999 coins is effectively weightless, RAW, since the rules say to just count increments of 1000. 999 coins isn't 9L, it's nothing. That's straight from the rules.
Splitting it up into multiple bags to distribute that weight more is cheesy, but it's also entirely valid RAW since backpacks and other such things exist. It just serves as a good example to highlight the absurdity of the entire bulk system if you get outside of the very narrow confines of "a medium size adventurer carrying their own stuff".
Personally I prefer just using weightless currency because as a GM I don't find "hey you found a horde at low level and it has lots of copper/silver, now spend 20 minutes figuring out how you're going to carry it without being encumbered" to be interesting gameplay. But I do wish the rules for it weren't straight up worse than PF1. PF2's bulk rules were meant to simplify things but actually require far more GM fiat because they only work in such a narrowly defined scope and very quickly descend into total nonsense outside of that scope.
When trying to evacuate a fallen comrade, we tend not to look much farther than the 6 Bulk for Medium and 3 Bulk for Small characters. That is, we ignore their carried or worn gear's Bulk unless there is something extreme or unusual going on, like wearing full plate, or carrying a bundle of ladders.
We almost never go 6 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 15.3 Bulk.
Carrying a naked person and carrying a person decked out in leather and a few pouches should not be appreciably different in difficulty. It might even be easier, as now you have straps and things to grab onto.
Agreed. For practical purposes, 6 bulk works. It's a lot, but a strong PC can do it, which means the gameplay of "carry an injured PC away from trouble" is doable.
If you start at 6 and then add all their gear, most martial PCs can't be carried by another PC at all without first stripping all their gear of, and you can't do that in a combat situation because it takes too long. 6 bulk is heavy enough that it's a significant impediment, so its doing the job while making heroic "get your unconscious friend that failed all their saves out of the smoke-filled room" possible.
Splitting it up into multiple bags to distribute that weight more is cheesy, but it's also entirely valid RAW since backpacks and other such things exist. It just serves as a good example to highlight the absurdity of the entire bulk system if you get outside of the very narrow confines of "a medium size adventurer carrying their own stuff".
RAW is a troll ruling.
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Splitting it up into multiple bags to distribute that weight more is cheesy, but it's also entirely valid RAW since backpacks and other such things exist. It just serves as a good example to highlight the absurdity of the entire bulk system if you get outside of the very narrow confines of "a medium size adventurer carrying their own stuff".RAW is a troll ruling.
technically correct is the best kind of correct. And, IMO, the entire Bulk set of rules is troll ruling so... Since none of it makes any sense RAW, why count ANY of it trolling? Does either way actually improve your gaming experience? Does carrying a few extra bags of gold break a game? Not mine.
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Carrying creatures has basically always been the territory of "yeah, if you plan on doing this often, figure it out with your DM", because the Bulk system is just not made for that scenario.
Bulk is primarily intended to deal with an individual PC's personal "carrying convenience", which is why it's a measurement not ONLY of weight but also of size and shape simultaneously. In that context, most of the rules make enough sense if you don't try to squint at them too hard.
I imagine this was at least partially intentional to allow room for GM interpretation on case-to-case bases rather than having a hardline situation of "Yeah, sorry Jennathan, you're 1 Bulk too many for Himbotaur to carry because of your Alchemist Tools so he'll need to Interact to remove those from your dying body." I can just look at the table for Creature Bulk and then kinda eyeball the situation from there, which seems to be Bulk's schtick - it's not logically rigorous under scrutiny, but it's just reasonable enough to be quickly referenced and adjudicated from there in the moment.