Errata / correction needed for Heroic Recovery vs Hero Points? PC1 p412 and 413

[Jina langu]

I noticed a very small difference in two rules, on facing pages, that seem like they are probably meant to be identical, but there is a key phrase missing from one. It caused us no end of consternation before I realized there were two differently worded versions of what seems to be the same rule.

For Heroic Recovery, p.412: (allows for use at the start of your turn)
If you have at least 1 Hero Point (page 413), you can spend all of your remaining Hero Points at the start of your turn or when your dying value would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don’t gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don’t lose it or decrease its value.

For Hero Points, p.413: (does not allow for use at the start of your turn)
Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to avoid death. You can do this when your dying condition would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don't gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don't lose it or decrease its value.

This may seem like a minor semantic or even pedantic argument, but for those who are precise readers of game mechanics, this presented quite a problem, as the entry on p.413 would seem to disallow using Hero Points right away after you GAIN the dying condition, restricting its use for at least another turn until the dying value you gained would INCREASE. It seems like the intended rule is probably the wording for Heroic Recovery, which would allow you to use it at the start of your next turn instead of needing to wait until your dying condition would INCREASE. It was probably just a little error of omission, but thought I would bring it to someone's attention. If there is meant to be a difference, that's not clear.

[rainzax]

0 to 1 increase?

[Tridus]

Jina langu wrote:

This may seem like a minor semantic or even pedantic argument, but for those who are precise readers of game mechanics, this presented quite a problem, as the entry on p.413 would seem to disallow using Hero Points right away after you GAIN the dying condition, restricting its use for at least another turn until the dying value you gained would INCREASE.

Your dying condition has a value. It going to 1 is an increase if you didn't have it before, since it was effectively at 0. So you can use it here.

But in general, you said it yourself: this is a semantic/pedantic argument. PF2 is not written in super precise, technical terminology, and trying to parse it that way is going to result in a bad time.

In general the main reason to do this is that you're about to go to dying 4, so waiting until the start of your next turn before doing it makes very little sense in practice. That's more likely the reason why the "start of turn" part was removed.

[Finoan]

The effect is identical. You lose Dying condition and have 0 HP; you don't gain or increase Wounded condition.

Yes, technically the 'Heroic Recovery' listing in the "Conditions related to Dying" has an additional triggering time when you can invoke spending your hero points on avoiding death.

If I was forced to choose one ruling to go with, it would be the one in the rules for Hero Points. So you could only spend your hero points when you would increase your Dying condition.

But it is a bit of a moot point since if you have the Dying condition the only thing you can do on your turn is roll a recovery check and potentially increase your Dying condition. So if you are planning on using Heroic Recovery anyway, you might as well wait and roll the dice. Maybe you will get lucky and recover. If you are not so lucky, then you can still spend the Hero Points instead of increasing your Dying value. If a player wanted to skip rolling the recovery check and just spend the Hero Points at the start of their turn to recover, I would let them.

As for having to wait until your next turn to spend your Hero Points on recovery, I don't think that is a problem either. The only risk is if you are attacked while down. And taking damage before the start of your next turn would cause your Dying value to increase and would enable you to spend your Hero Points to stabilize anyway. But again, if a player wanted to spend their Hero Points on recovery immediately after being dropped, I would probably let them.

[NorrKnekten]

Considering both texts are so close there really isnt a case of one rule overriding the other.

Heroic recovery allows at the start of turn, the text for heropoints omission of start of turn does not forbid it. and its really as simple as that.

The discussion of "is gaining a condition the same as increasing it" is rather old at this point but ultimately rather pointless in this scenario as you increase your dying value by your wounded value and still need to wait a full round due to the shift in initiative.

I can think of very few reasons where heroic recovery at start of turn makes sense though, And only for enemies/spells that require that you are specifically dying, And only if you are dying 2-3

[Jina langu]

It's just an error of omission that could be easily fixed in future errata and printings. That's all, no need for debate about it or the tactics involved. If it was removed on purpose, then remove it from the same rule on the facing page as well. It was obviously just an oversight one way or the other.

[ElementalofCuteness]

This should be put in the Spring Errata idea thread.