It appears that the restrictive wording has been removed as best as I can tell, and I cannot find the following text anywhere:
Occasionally, an archetype feat works like a skill feat instead of a class feat. These archetype feats have the skill trait, and you select them in place of a skill feat, otherwise following the same rules above. These are not archetype class feats (for instance, to determine the number of Hit Points you gain from the Fighter Resiliency archetype feat).
The Skill tag itself says:
A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill. A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype’s dedication feat.
Given the wording that is now present:
The only difference between a normal character and a free archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats. You might restrict the free feats to those of a single archetype each character in the group has (for a shared backstory), those of archetypes fitting a certain theme (such as only ones from magical archetypes in a game set in a magic school), or entirely unrestricted if you just want a higher-powered game.
If the group all has the same archetype or draws from a limited list, you might want to ignore the free archetype's normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats before taking a new archetype. That way a character can still pursue another archetype that also fits their character.
Free-archetype characters are a bit more versatile and powerful than normal, but usually not so much that they unbalance your game. However, due to the characters’ increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character’s number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats). Allowing a character to benefit from a number of these feats equal to half their level is appropriate.
Does this mean that we can now take [Archetype] feats with the [Skill] tag with the free archetype class feats given at every even level with the variant rule, and additionally pick up [Skill] tagged archetype feats with traditional skill feats if we wish?
My reading of it is that no, You cannot take them with the extra feats from Free Archetype. The Feats with the [Skill] trait are skill feats and as per the rules written above, They are not Class Feats.
This is because the extra feats from Free Archetype as per PG.84 which you quoted are for Class Feats.
The only difference between a normal character and a free archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats.Which is further proved by the first quoteOccasionally, an archetype feat works like a skill feat instead of a class feat. These archetype feats have the skill trait, and you select them in place of a skill feat, otherwise following the same rules above. These are not archetype class feats (for instance, to determine the number of Hit Points you gain from the Fighter Resiliency archetype feat).The bolded wording points to a character being unable to pick them where they would otherwise pick a class feat, regardless if that class feat comes from Free Archetype or otherwise.
EDIT: Apparently the same text is present within the second quote to.
A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill. A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype’s dedication feat.
The first quote was removed from the remastered books as best as I can tell. I cannot find it anywhere, not in the GM core on page 84 where the variant rule exists, nor in player core page 215.
The thing I'm trying to ascertain is whether or not the removal of that text means they are now able to be taken with the archetype class feats.
Maybe this needs an errata because archetypes are the only place in the game you'll find feats that are both marked as a class feat [Archetype] and a skill feat [Skill]. These feats have both tags, and if [Archetype] is not a class feat tag, then technically you can't take any archetype feats with the free class feat variant rule.
Oh, That is because it was moved to PC1 Here
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, allowing you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat. A skill feat still counts to satisfy the requirement of the dedication. There are also class archetypes that can modify your class’s abilities as soon as 1st level. You can never have more than one class archetype.I too found it easy to miss since it speaks about Class Archetypes in the same paragraph.
Maybe it's a difference in interpretation because to me 'Allowing you to do x rather than y' means y is still on the table.
It might just come down to
> A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill. A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype’s dedication feat.
Superseding the permissive text in other locations, but it would be nice if they put it all in one location with a clear cut answer.
It seems like the answer to my question is no, but I hope it's understandable where my confusion came from. Hopefully they errata it to make it super clear, like adding [Class] tag to the archetype feats or changing the other text to say "Archetype feats with the Skill tag can only be taken in place of a skill or general feat granted by your class."
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Honestly due FA being a Variant Rule I don't see any problem with players taking archetypes skill feats in the FA slot. It is not like this would break or unbalance the game more than FA already states that it does.
But RAW I agree if we follow the hard rules you cannot but it's a variant rule, some kind of Paizo's written "homebrew", there's no need to be so hard with these rules.
In any event, with Free Archetype being a variant rule, probably just best to clarify with your GM how they're planning to run it.
Since often GM's run it with some kind of restriction on what archetypes are available, they may also allow for other changes.
My understanding of the RAW though is:
When running free archetype rules, players get extra extra class feats and 2nd level and every even level. These extra feats can be used to take archetype feats (which would include archetype feats with the skill tag).
You can also spend general feats or (obviously) skill feats as you level up on skill feats and archetype feats with the skill tag. Meaning if your archetype has lots of feats with the skill tag, you could choose to spend general and skill feats to acquire them more quickly.
I think maybe there is a question about whether archetype feats with the skill tag could be taken with the free archetype feat...and I think I'm reading some people saying no, and I'm just confused by it, because isn't it still an archetype feat?
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My understanding of the RAW though is:
When running free archetype rules, players get extra extra class feats and 2nd level and every even level. These extra feats can be used to take archetype feats (which would include archetype feats with the skill tag).
The Free Archetype rules state (emphasis mine):
"a free archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats"Edit: Reading NorrKnektens post, i see that there is no rule definition of archetype feats being class feats though, so it seems to be only hinging on the skill tag.
In any case, the skill feats from archetypes often allow to "quit" the archetype early, for example medic has a skill feat at 4 as well as a class feat, allowing you to choose a different archetype at lvl 6.
Sorry, let me give an example and maybe you can help me understand.
Let's take specifically the medic archetype and in particular the Treat Condition feat.
Treat Condition has the archetype, healing, manipulate and skill tags.
Assuming you had the Medic archetype already, and were at least level 4 my understanding is:
You could spend a class feat on it, as you're normally allowed to spend a class feat on an archetype feat instead.
You could spend a general feat on it, as you're normally allowed to spend a general feat on skill feats.
You could spent a skill feat on it, as it is a skill feat (albeit in an archetype).
The above, should be true without or without free archetype rules in play, although I may be misunderstanding on those points.
You could spend a free archetype feat on it, as it is a archetype feat.
Edit: Rereading NorrKnekten's last post, it seems the argument is that once a feat has the skill tag applied to it, the behavior as I understand it is no longer true.
They way I read the rules, I'm having trouble understanding that position.
As a further example, if you had a feat that had only the skill tag (no archetype tag), my understanding would be:
You can't spend a class feat on it, as it's not a class feat.
You can spend a general or skill feat on it.
You couldn't spend a free archetype feat on it, because it's not an archetype feat.
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Honestly due FA being a Variant Rule I don't see any problem with players taking archetypes skill feats in the FA slot. It is not like this would break or unbalance the game more than FA already states that it does.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with houseruling the houserules. Even houserules published by Paizo.
The way that I see it is that under the general rules an Archetype Skill feat is a Skill feat. Those go in the standard Skill feat slots. You couldn't put one in a standard Class feat slot or General feat slot.
The Free Archetype feat slots are class feat slots.
The only difference between a normal character and a free archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats.
They are explicitly categorized as such. Technically they wouldn't qualify to hold General or Skill feats.
But I'm not seeing anything wrong with putting an Archetype Skill feat in a Free Archetype feat slot. That doesn't seem like something that is going to break the game balance any.
Okay, I understand your position but strongly disagree with your interpretation.
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, allowing you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat. A skill feat still counts to satisfy the requirement of the dedication. There are also class archetypes that can modify your class’s abilities as soon as 1st level. You can never have more than one class archetype.
When I read this, for me it is a confirmation that you can take an archetype skill feat with your regular class feat.
This later bit in the skill trait that says:
A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill. A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype’s dedication feat.
When I read this I simply interpret it as saying you can take a skill feat using either general or skill feats, including archetype skill feats, when granted by your class. It does not (by my reading) state that there are no exceptions.
To me, the other text about archetype feats creates an exception whereby the use of class feats, to purchase archetype feats, including skill feats is permitted.
To me this is a case of specific vs general.
In general, you couldn't take a skill feat with a class feat.
In specific, you can take archetype feats with a class feat, including the extra feat granted in free archetype. And per the first quote, that also means you can use class feat to select an archetype skill feat.
Overall, my interpretation is that archetype skill feats have many opportunities to select them because they are both archetype and skill feats.
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Okay, I understand your position but strongly disagree with your interpretation.
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, allowing you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat. A skill feat still counts to satisfy the requirement of the dedication. There are also class archetypes that can modify your class’s abilities as soon as 1st level. You can never have more than one class archetype.When I read this, for me it is a confirmation that you can take an archetype skill feat with your regular class feat.
So, my reading is that RATHER THAN means that you can take them in place of a skill feat, but that you cannot take them in place of a class feat. RATHER THAN replaces one set of parameters with another, it does not give you multiple sets of parameters.
If they had meant that you could take it in either a skill feat slot or a class feat slot, it would have been worded something like "allowing you to take them in place of either a skill feat or a class feat".
Okay, I understand your position but strongly disagree with your interpretation.
When I read this, for me it is a confirmation that you can take an archetype skill feat with your regular class feat.
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, allowing you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat. A skill feat still counts to satisfy the requirement of the dedication. There are also class archetypes that can modify your class’s abilities as soon as 1st level. You can never have more than one class archetype.
Why would you read it that way?
This isn't even talking about Free Archetype rules at all.
You can't put Quick Jump in your character's level 4 Class feat slot. Quick Jump is a Skill feat.
So why would you be able to put Treat Condition in a level 4 Class feat slot? Having the Archetype trait doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes a Class feat despite the Skill trait on it.
Pickup Pathbuilder2e, put in the $5 to unlock everything, build your character within that and it will come out very accurate.
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Pickup Pathbuilder2e, put in the $5 to unlock everything, build your character within that and it will come out very accurate.
While I don't disagree that Pathbuilder2e is a good product, I don't like that logic.
Saying "Pathbuilder agrees with me" (or insert other character creation or VTT platform of choice) isn't a reasonable argument. That is Appeal to Authority fallacy.
Okay, I understand your position but strongly disagree with your interpretation.
When I read this, for me it is a confirmation that you can take an archetype skill feat with your regular class feat.
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, allowing you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat. A skill feat still counts to satisfy the requirement of the dedication. There are also class archetypes that can modify your class’s abilities as soon as 1st level. You can never have more than one class archetype.Why would you read it that way?
This isn't even talking about Free Archetype rules at all.
You can't put Quick Jump in your character's level 4 Class feat slot. Quick Jump is a Skill feat.
So why would you be able to put Treat Condition in a level 4 Class feat slot? Having the Archetype trait doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes a Class feat despite the Skill trait on it.
Well, because of the way the archetype trait explanation reads to me.
To me, it says pretty much exactly that.
And I now understand how others are arriving at their conclusions, it's just not a conclusion I reach when reading the same words.
Per my earlier example, I agree with you that you can't take Quick Jump with your class feats.
But I do think you could use your class feat to take an archetype feat, that also happens to be a skill feat.
Edit: That said, I do have Pathbuilder and while it should not be taken as an authority as they could have it wrong, it agrees with others saying that you coudln't spend your class feat on the archetype skill feat and instead that you must spend your skill feats.
So there does be support to the idea that despite being an archetype feat, being a skill feat precludes it from being taken using a class feat slot but it could be taken as a general or skill feat.
I do kind of hate that though, because I liked the idea that you could lean into your archetypes schtick hard if you really wanted to (and if it had skill feats in it). Trading a class feat for a skill feat is usually going to be weaker choice.
Clearly Paizo needs to cater to reading comprehension and add the word "only" though.
I think the problem really lies with:
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, allowing you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat. A skill feat still counts to satisfy the requirement of the dedication. There are also class archetypes that can modify your class’s abilities as soon as 1st level. You can never have more than one class archetype.
They need to rewrite the first sentence to something like:
Some archetype feats in other books have the skill trait, requiring you to take them in place of a skill feat rather than a class feat.
Cause that's the whole problem for me. The word "allowing" is a strong implication (to me) that the intention is for you to be able to use class feats to spend on archetype feats with the skill tag. I literally can't read it any other way, and had assumed until now that this was the intention.
In fact, in my mind I would say my interpretation is still correct and still can't actually arrive at the other conclusion, but I think the other interpretation is more widely supported.
I do kind of hate that though, because I liked the idea that you could lean into your archetypes schtick hard if you really wanted to (and if it had skill feats in it). Trading a class feat for a skill feat is usually going to be weaker choice.I mean, you can. You just take the class feats from the archetype in your class or FA slots and the skill feats in you skill slots.
The only time this would be an issue is if there's no level 4 class feat option, which is rare.
Yes and no. Yes, if you're literally going "all in" and want to pick up everything the archetype offers then I guess that works. But I think there are cases where you may not want the archetype class feat that's available, but would like the archetype skill feat and another skill feat.
Allowing is allowing you to take them because the feat rules say you can only take feats with the general trait in skill feat slots.
If you put requiring you'd actually stop being able to take them at all.
No.
I think it'd be more clear what's intended.
Like I get for (non-archetype) skill feats its very clear they can only be taken with skill or general feats and I always agreed that was the case.
The archetype rule the way it's written is confusing, at least to me.
If you write required instead of allowed, I think it would be clear that:
1) You can't use class feats on archetype skill feats (as you can on archetype "class" feat)
2) That you can use your skill feats to take archetype skill feats
3) If something is required, one would generally understand that thing to be allowed.