Exploration modeLet's say our party decides to walk from place A to B and I use Avoid Notice to do so.
1. The rules tell me to roll a stealth check. Can/MUST I have cover while rolling his check? If not, how am I then using stealth while walking to point B. You need cover to Hide before you can use Sneak. Or is avoiding notice completely different from hiding/sneaking and is cover therefore not a requirement for using Avoid Notice.
2. Do you get a cover bonus to your stealth check in this scenario?
3. If so, greater cover adds a +4 bonus to stealth checks. So when starting Avoid Notice what is to stop me from always declaring I stand "behind" a building to gain greater cover? But from who am I taking cover at that point?
4. Am I correct in understanding that the point of this Stealth check is to see if any enemies we pass while in exploration mode do notice me (checking against their Perception DC)?
1) I think it's assumed you "have cover/concealment", as yes you "need" it to be hidden. But the thing to remember is that exploration doesn't take place on a map. And there isn't actually a requirement to use avoid notice, it's just an activity you can take (and later on with the right feats one you can do while doing other activities). The whole point of it is to allow you start an encounter presumably in a spot where you could hide and to use stealth roll for your initiative, as well as to go unnoticed during your travel, although that typically doesn't mean much unless the whole party is doing it because your party members will be noticed.
2) No you wouldn't get any bonuses from terrain, because it's not real terrain or a map or anything like that. Exploration is to help guide what happens in between encounters.
3) Not applicable
4) Sort of. As mentioned is one benefit would be that enemies might not notice you, and if you were alone you might avoid them entirely. However, typically enemies will notice your other party members and you're going to help your party right? So the way it's typically run is you start from a position where you could hide from the enemy in encounter mode, and depending on the enemies check they may not be aware of you at the start of combat.
5) Typically when you transition from Exploration to Encounter, I've seen it run as rolling a new roll for your initiative. Remember, it is an imitative roll not a stealth roll at the start of an encounter. While you were avoiding notice, that just allows you to use your stealth skill bonus in place of perception for initiative. However, I personally run it combining the roll as both your initiative roll and stealth roll to see if the enemy has noticed you.
6) You might not always have cover. It might just be concealment (like fog). But if you're standing around a corner from the enemies hiding, you probably have cover and should get that bonus starting in the encounter.
7) I think technically they're separate rolls, but that always made no sense to me, so I do them as the same.
8) I agree, and I don't roll it. I use the players Stealth DC (which is their stealth bonus +10). It doesn't really come up much since it's rare that all players are using stealth and would completely bypass enemies. I also prefer to use the Stealth DC because I think it makes sense to kind of have an "average" stealth roll when representing using stealth over a long period of time.
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This is the right place for such questions, yes.
Exploration:
No, you don't need cover or concealment to use Avoid Notice as your exploration tactic. Exploration mode positioning isn't tracked that precisely. If there is some reason that your position needs to be tracked well enough to determine if you have cover from an enemy, then the game mode should be transitioned into a non-combat Encounter mode (yes, that is a thing. Encounter mode can be used for other scenarios than just combat.).
Since Exploration is a summary of a relatively long period of time (when compared to the Sneak or Hide actions), then you would not be using bonuses such as Cover. Or short duration buffs such as Guidance. You could use permanently available things like Assurance.
And yes, the purpose here is to let you traverse an area without alerting everything around you. The GM may represent that by informing you that the enemy is in the area before rolling initiative, giving you time to do something quiet such as retreat, or cast spells with the Subtle trait before starting initiative. There isn't a surprise round in PF2, so if the party wants to attack the enemies that they find, initiative should be rolled first.
Encounter:
You do roll a Stealth roll for initiative that is separate from your Avoid Notice roll that you have been using previous to that. The Avoid Notice roll has been being used for a while already at that point though as you navigate through empty rooms and hallways.
Whether you have a cover bonus or not is up to the GM and the narrative at the time. If you are going down a trail through an open field and come across a Beast creature that isn't paying much attention, probably not. If you are going through a building and you are peeking your head around a corner of a hallway and the GM informs you that there are guards in front of the door to the next room, then I would give you the cover bonus for that.
I would only give you Undetected if the game is in Encounter mode. Especially if anyone else in your party is noticed. Unnoticed is primarily for Exploration mode.
You can attack from behind cover. Technically by RAW the enemies will have cover against your attacks in every circumstance where you have cover against their attacks. But that is often houseruled differently if the cover is adjacent to you and not them. The degree of cover doesn't make a difference on whether you can make attacks or not.
Attacking does break stealth after the attack action. You will have to spend an action on Hide if you want to regain the Hidden condition, and after you have Hidden again, will have to Sneak to a different location if you want to go all the way to Undetected.
Secret checks are to avoid metagaming. They are also optional, the GM doesn't have to enforce that and can just let you roll the stealth check yourself if it is more convenient and you can be trusted to play the character according to what the character knows instead of in reaction to roll results. The metagaming danger here is that you roll a Stealth check, realize that you failed it, and as a result decide not to approach the enemy and attack them like you had originally planned and instead come up with a safer plan. At that point, the character is narratively reacting to nothing more than dice rolls.
Exploration modeLet's say our party decides to walk from place A to B and I use Avoid Notice to do so.
1. The rules tell me to roll a stealth check. Can/MUST I have cover while rolling his check? If not, how am I then using stealth while walking to point B. You need cover to Hide before you can use Sneak. Or is avoiding notice completely different from hiding/sneaking and is cover therefore not a requirement for using Avoid Notice.
Yes in exploration mode is up to GM to decide how difficult will be to Avoid Notice depending of the situation or even if it will be impossible if you don't have any ability to hide without cover (like trying to avoid notice while trying to pass through a big room illuminated root without any cover points (but technically you still can Sneak between any cover points without being covered taking advantage of any natural distractions from your enemies) if these points are between your sneak action speed).
So in general is up to your GM to decide if is possible and how difficult or easier it will be depending from the place, situation and enemies perception.
2. Do you get a cover bonus to your stealth check in this scenario?
Depends from how your GM will judge the situation. There are distractions? The cover points are big enough to gives you its bonuses? The creatures are not expecting invaders and are relaxed getting penalty in their perception? Or are alert due some recent event?
All this could change the DC and the bonus and penalties that you will get.
3. If so, greater cover adds a +4 bonus to stealth checks. So when starting Avoid Notice what is to stop me from always declaring I stand "behind" a building to gain greater cover? But from who am I taking cover at that point?
Basically it will depend from you and your GM. Depending of how your GM will rune he could give to you extra information and opportunities to help you to avoid being noticed and you can help asking these details for it. Or your GM may decide that they want to deal with this and just roll a normal Stealth check without too much details. Basically the exploration mode is more a GM territory than yours. Depending from your GM patience you can always ask if have details to help you and it will decide if it will do something or not.
4. Am I correct in understanding that the point of this Stealth check is to see if any enemies we pass while in exploration mode do notice me (checking against their Perception DC)?
Yes but this will affect your initiative too. Probably you will start with a Stealth roll (or the GM simply will user your current Steath roll for the initiative) and how many enemies will be surprised by you.
Encounter mode
After a while I spot a group of goblins on the road and the GM asks us to roll initiative.
Initiative
5. The rules say I should usually use Stealth instead of perception to toll my initiative. Do I roll a new Stealth check for initiative or use the dice roll from when I started avoiding notice?
RAW yes. You roll a new initiative. But is common many GMs to avoid new rolls just use your current Stealth roll to save some time once this doesn't change the things probabilistically. Talk with your GM how it will deal with Stealth initiative. The only point is that this could not be decide in time because could couse double rolls question (if you decide to roll after you know the old stealth roll this means that you can trying to get a better roll if you choose to not roll this could be mean that you are trying to avoid a worse roll) but if the roll was secret as default this usually isn't a problem.
Cover / level of Detection
6. Do I have a cover bonus for this roll? Aka, do you always exit Avoid Notice while having Cover? Otherwise you would never remain Stealthed at the start of an encounter but become observed instead.
Well depends. Are you detected when you are behing a cover or when you are moving? Is up to your GM to decide. Usually this is one of the reasons that I prefer to reuse the Avoid Notice stealth roll because it will include such scenario factors. But again is up to your GM to decide when you was detected if it was when you are behind a cover or during your movement.
7. As I understand, the new Stealth check I did when rolling initiative will be used to determine if the goblins notice me at the start of the encounter (see Q.3). Is this correct?
Partially. For those who starts before you in the initiative, yes. For those who starts after you in the initiative will depend from what you have done in your turn. You tried to Hide again? If yes you win against the perception of the goblins that is acting after your turn? If yes you probably still is unnoticed/undetected (depends from what happened in the turns before you act) by these goblin unless those goblins who still see you Pointed your position to other goblins to they know your location and you not Sneak after Hide? It's a new Stealth check so all a new perception conditions that will be considered now.
But if you simply advanced without try to Hide again you are now visible to everyone.8. If my assumptions are correct so far, what is the point of rolling that initial Stealth check when Avoiding Notice if at the start of an encounter you roll Stealth again for both initiative and determining the Detection level you start the encounter with?
The point is that Avoid Notice is a secret roll by default you don't know it and if your GM want you may never know it. But now you need to roll initiative so you need to have a know roll.
Yet as I said it's pretty common that many GMs (including myself) doesn't care about roll in secret (because you don't know the DC) and don't care if you know that you rolled a critical and just reuses this roll for initiative. But RAW (that's the point of this forum) you don't know the check and you need a new roll for initiative.9. Let's say my new initiative Stealth check beats all the goblins Perception DC's I assume I'm unnoticed and undetected and I still have at least have standard cover?
No you just react faster than they but was already notice by some of them. You have to Hide and Sneak again to become Undetected and won't be Unnoticed again during this encounter.
Attacking
10. If I still have cover when the encounter starts and I want to use a Strike action using my bow. Can I use this while behind cover? Let's say I exited Avoid Notice behind a tree, rolled a 20 for initiative can I then stay behind cover while slightly bending myself around the tree to shoot an arrow? I assume that i can do this, but it will take an extra action to let me remain/regain cover, and will stop my Stealth correct? Does this also work behind greater cover such as a large rock or a wall?
Yes you can and they will be off-guard vs you due this. But this immediately ends after you finish your attack (or in the case of rogues due Surprise Attack feature they will lose their off-guard condition vs you only when each of their turns begins).
Hiding and Sneaking
11. When I use the Hide and Sneak action, it says the GM should roll a secret Stealth check for me. What is the benefit of this instead of rolling it yourself? Does the GM not let you know what the result of the check is, or only when I try to Strike a creature will I find out if I was Hidden/Undetected because the flat-footed bonus applies in this case?
The point is to prevent you to know if your roll was a nat 1 or 20 and you only notice that they saw you when you attack them and they aren't off-guard to you or when they attack you without need to Seek you or do a flat check.
12. Lets say I use the Create a Diversion Skill to succesfully Hide myself. I roll this Deception check myself against the Perception DC of the enemy. Then, if I want to Sneak away on the same turn I won't know if I was succesfull until I Strike someone?
In case of Create a Diversion you know when they was distracted. But as normal when you Sneak the GM you roll the Secrect Stealth check to you.
Remember that each action that you do Hiding/Sneaking requires a new check in a encounter unless you have feats and abilities that allows you to not need to roll again.
It's worth noting, that I've rarely seen rogues continue to stealth after the start of combat.
Flanking allows for sneak attack, as does anything that causes off-guard which is quite common to inflict. And the thief racket (which is the most common choice I've seen due to getting dex to damage) also has Precise Debilitation which allows you to inflict off-guard on your own.
As well as the gang-up feat, which allows you to qualify as flanking as long as the enemy is within your and your ally's reach.
There's also tumble through.
So at early levels it's common to need to repeatedly stealth, but depending on your ally's builds and play styles and your own feats it becomes trivial to find an off-guard enemy to sneak attack.
And the biggest reason I see this, is because the action economy cost to continuously hide. Because you're not just spending an action every turn after attacking to move/hide. You typically also are going to spend your first action moving out from wherever you were hiding. So in this scenario you end up with only 1 attack action a round.
Even at level 1, I've seen most people would rather move to flank or otherwise set-up off-guard than continuously use stealth in combat.
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I have a ranged rogue player that used Hide almost every round to both kept some enemies off-guard while his allies still didn't Trip/Grab someone and to force a 50% flat-check vs effect that targets him.
In practice is a good strategy for ranged players, specially players that doesn't have opportunity to flank the enemies. Hide at range is fantastically good both offensively and defensive.
It's a very interesting 3rd action to those who doesn't want to risk being easily retaliated while grants ranged off-guard.
He play as Thief Eldritch Archer usually Enchanting Shot when it needs to Hide to grant an off-guard and Eldritch Shot when the enemy was already off-guard due some other reason. It was a pretty strong build that sum both extra magic damage with precision damage.
Yeah, I suppose if you're playing a ranged rogue it's different.
There isn't actually a lot of support to help you get someone off-guard on your own besides stealth. Still there are plenty of things allies can do to cause of-guard for a ranged attacker, but it's not as common/easy to fulfill.
So I guess I should clarify that my previous statement was viewed with melee attacks in mind.
It's also not as big a problem when attacking from range because you don't need to move in and out from cover. You do have to spend the action to hide at the end of your turn, but it's less of an action tax to do this than with melee.
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Stealth does really become an extremely useful tool for melee rogues, but at higher levels (13 for Halflings, 15 for Legendary Sneak).
Using your third action to Stealth is probably your best defensive option overall, the enemy has to either Seek (1 action less, and it's not guaranteed to work), use some other form to make you lose Hidden or deal with a 45% miss chance.
But yes at lower levels it's much harder to justify on a melee rogue, with a few exceptions, like if you have low-light/darkvision and the enemy doesn't and you're fighting in dim light.
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It's also not as big a problem when attacking from range because you don't need to move in and out from cover. You do have to spend the action to hide at the end of your turn, but it's less of an action tax to do this than with melee.
Agreed with the both of you.
And to be clear for the new player, only Hide is needed in order to enable this strategy. You don't have to Sneak to a different location with cover in order to get the enemies off-guard and enable Sneak Attack.
The Hidden condition makes enemies off-guard to your attack and causes a DC 11 flat check (50% miss chance) for things that target you.
Undetected also makes enemies off-guard, but makes it so that the enemies have to guess what space you are in and are not able to target you directly at all.
So you can get a lot of benefit from fighting from a location with cover and using Hide at the end of your turn or the start of your turn, or both.
It's also not as big a problem when attacking from range because you don't need to move in and out from cover. You do have to spend the action to hide at the end of your turn, but it's less of an action tax to do this than with melee.Agreed with the both of you.
And to be clear for the new player, only Hide is needed in order to enable this strategy. You don't have to Sneak to a different location with cover in order to get the enemies off-guard and enable Sneak Attack.
The Hidden condition makes enemies off-guard to your attack and causes a DC 11 flat check (50% miss chance) for things that target you.
Undetected also makes enemies off-guard, but makes it so that the enemies have to guess what space you are in and are not able to target you directly at all.
So you can get a lot of benefit from fighting from a location with cover and using Hide at the end of your turn or the start of your turn, or both.
You're right, and I should have been more clear about what I was saying.
Stealth does really become an extremely useful tool for melee rogues, but at higher levels (13 for Halflings, 15 for Legendary Sneak).
Using your third action to Stealth is probably your best defensive option overall, the enemy has to either Seek (1 action less, and it's not guaranteed to work), use some other form to make you lose Hidden or deal with a 45% miss chance.
But yes at lower levels it's much harder to justify on a melee rogue, with a few exceptions, like if you have low-light/darkvision and the enemy doesn't and you're fighting in dim light.
You're right, that once you hit legendary sneak it might be one of the most useful 3rd action, assuming you pickup of the Legendary Sneak feat (it's slightly confusing that you can have the skill stealth and legendary proficiency, but also have a skill feat named legendary sneak). For those unfamiliar, it allows you to hide and sneak without cover or concealment, meaning after you attack you can hide where you're standing and don't need to move in and out of cover. It really allows for a huge change in playstyle. But hopefully by that time you've already got good teamwork and several methods of setting up off-guard for sneak attack without relying on stealth. Hiding is more to deny the enemy retaliatory attacks in this scenario.
...13 for Halflings...
Goblins too.
45% miss chance.
It's 50%. It's DC 11 not DC 10.