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I just want to point out that what I say about Create Thrall is by far my biggest issue with an otherwise supremely amazing class and kindly ask any paizo designer who might happen to read this topic to pay special attention to that particular bit of feedback. Thank you.
This is my initial feedback after reading the Necromancer class and thinking about it for most of the weekend. For now, this is just theory. Should I somehow find the time in the busy holiday season, I'll try to set up some combat demos and see how those go.
First, I love the class. The design, flavor, and mechanics. I will focus my feedback on some mechanical things I think could be improved without changing the overall feel or power level of the class. Or just things that could be a bit clearer. Anything that I don't mention is either tried and true (most proficiencies, Quickened Casting, etc) or borderline perfection.
I'll put each feedback category in spoilers to keep the post better digestible.
I'm a big gish lover, known to turn all kinds of casters into melee characters, even if it's mechanically … let's go with “less than ideal”. It’s amazing that the necromancer has some in-class abilities that promote melee combat. The weapon proficiency you can get at level 2 with Reaper's Weapon Familiarity is all about grabbing the biggest, meanest blade you can find. None of the martial weapons you can get even have the finesse trait - other than the hand adze, which frankly isn’t better than a dagger and shouldn't be martial in the first place.
So you're stuck with needing intelligence for your class, strength for your weapon and dexterity for your AC. That's not a good place to be and limits melee necromancers to either being extremely fragile at level 1, be human, or be one of the ancestries that can pull off Str +3, Dex +2 and Int +4 like gnollkholo or android – which still leaves their AC sub-par until at least level 2. Medium armor proficiency would make the melee playstyle much more feasible without forcing the player to jump through extra hoops.
I think even with medium armor, you're hardly as effective as a martial or even as a warpriest in melee. The frequent need to create thralls as an “action drain” on most turns even when you want to Stride and Strike things seems enough of a balancing factor to make melee necromancers in medium armor somewhat playable but not too strong in any way.
You have psychic like spellcasting but only one focus point at level 1. Consume thrall is great to generate another focus point in combat but it effectively takes two actions to pull off which is extremely awkward with the action economy of a caster - especially one that relies heavily on focus spells and needs an extra action to set those up.
Assuming you don't need to move, a typical combat at level 1 would probably look like this:
Turn 1: Create thrall > 2-action Focus spell.
Turn 2: Create thrall (preferably in a spot where it's save like behind you) > Cast a spell. With only one slot per day, this is most likely a cantrip, which significantly limits your impact on this turn.
Turn 3: Consume thrall to regain your focus point. But now you're out of thralls to use that focus spell on. And if you create another thrall, you don't have enough actions left to use your focus spells this turn.
You could also consume your thrall on turn two, but that leaves you in the awkward “one action left and not really accomplished much this turn” spot.
I get that making decisions about how and when to use your thralls is a great part of the class. But it just seems so much easier to manage at level 7+ that anything before that feels like you're playing only half of a class.
How do thralls interact with effects targeting their save DCs? Since they automatically fail all saves, does that mean anything targeting their save DCs is an automatic success? If that's the case, their usefulness as barrier is severely hampered since enemies can just tumble through and only treat the thrall's square as difficult terrain. I think at the very least they should use your spell DC against tumble through.
Thralls could need some spelled out interaction with other movement types. They seem impossible to use in aquatic or aerial combat. Technically there doesn't seem to be a rule against them being created in water or thin air but the language of Reoccurring Nightmare seems to imply that they usually can't Fly or Swim.
And how do thralls interact with initiative and turn order? How/when are they affected by ongoing area effects that for example deal damage when a creature starts its turn in it? Would a pre-existing thrall who stands in it at the start of the necromancer's turn take that damage and be destroyed? Would a thrall summoned into such an effect immediately take damage and be destroyed? And if yes, would he still be able to make the initial attack from the create thrall spell?
Could you maybe consider adding a fourth, blood-based subclass? I'm sure you can come up with something even though I can't think of a good way to do this right now.
Body Shield: Amazing feat. And yet another ability that would greatly benefit from getting more thralls early on.
Draining Strike: Feels a bit like the Necromancer's version of Vicious Swing, which again is amazing to see on a caster! It’s also too limited with only a single thrall per cast of create thrall at low levels. And is maybe a bit weak at the high levels? 3d4 damage and healing for an extra action doesn't seem that amazing once everyone has 200+ HP. I do appreciate that you don't need to destroy your thralls on a miss, though.
Osteo Armaments: I would love the option to make this a two-action activity which creates the weapon and allows us to immediately Strike with it using either Int instead of Str/Dex or simply just our spell attack modifier. The weapon would then fall apart after the Strike, of course. Doesn't seem more powerful than a cantrip and would allow caster necromancers to swing a bone-y scythe as well!
Great feat, but in a very weird spot, level-wise. Getting a +1 striking weapon at level 8 is trivial and any weapon-using necromancer will already have picked one up ages ago. I assume that it’s level 8 because of the decaying rune. Just make the feat level 4 and don't make the decaying rune available until level 8.
Maybe add more property runes as well. We could destroy additional thralls to also add the wounding rune at level 12 and the unholy rune at level 18 or something like that. Might make the feat a bit too powerful when gained via the Necromancer Archetype, though. Not sure.
Desperate Surge: I'm not sure what to make of this one. Seem like a neat concept but what's the use case, really? A melee necromancer who wants to use combat maneuvers will probably have enough strength to make athletics the better choice and a caster will preferably not be in a spot where he can even use a combat maneuver, and definitely not once every 10 minutes. At this point a caster is more likely to use a quickened Telekinetic Maneuver if they need an enemy tripped. Maybe allow a thrall to take the action instead? Seems more useful even if that option would cost an additional action and/or an additional thrall we need to sacrifice.
Necrotic Focus: Seems a bit redundant since consume thrall will already allow you to refill your focus pool rather quickly. Maybe change it to allowing you to consume two thralls at once for two actions to regain two focus points? It would be essentially the same effect out of combat but feel more unique. Could also potentially open up some interesting tactics in desperate situations in combat.
Why do Failure and Critical Failure say “[The target] can attempt to Escape”? This sounds like it can do so immediately upon being affected. Or that it can't attempt to Escape if it has a Success.
The spell could also use a minor damage component. I get that Flesh Magician is the control focused subclass but having your primary (and most likely only) focus spell at low levels not helping to actually kill stuff feels weird. Maybe let the thrall deal the damage of create thrall to the target automatically if the target doesn’t Escape the effect or destroys the thrall before the duration ends. So it would slows the target down and either deals some minor damage or forces them to spend an action (and some of their MAP) on Escaping.
Life Tap: I assume I can cast this on a thrall for the slowest out of combat focus healing in the game? How about adding an option that makes the healing effect a bit stronger if used on a thrall. Something like “the healed creature regains hit points equal to its level” sounds good to me. Would add some minor out of combat utility to it without stepping on the toes of Lay on Hands and similar abilities.
Bone Spear: This one's a bit weird. Range is 10 ft, which I assume means the thrall needs to be within 10 ft of the caster. That's quite limiting for a line effect though it might be a balancing factor for the potential to hit multiple creatures. It say “Targets 1 creature” but can hit multiple targets. At least make the target line say “1 thrall” to avoid some confusion. The spell attack is also defined as being a melee spell attack. So can it benefit from flanking? Probably not since the thrall is explicitly destroyed before the attack rolls happen.
Bony Barrage: Another necromancer ability that becomes ridiculously more usable once you get two thralls per create thrall casting – which it totally should do at level 1, in case I didn’t mention that enough already. :)
Flesh Tsunami: This one paints a wonderfully gross mental image. I love it! But its area is listed as 30-ft cone and described as 60-ft cone. I assume the number on top should be “Range 30 feet” not “area”. (Please let it be a 60ft cone!)
Skeletal Lancers: 5 thralls for one action and a focus point is nice but the 5 piercing damage seem a bit low for that level. Any creature with some degree of physical or piercing resistance will outright ignore it. I guess a Spirit Monger could turn that into spirit or void damage, making it far more useful. Maybe add an option to make the damage spirit for the other subclasses as well. It could make this focus spell cost one or two thralls or maybe an extra action. Maybe even a bit of blood (i.e. HP).
Bind Heroic Spirit: This is probably the only reason to still use a weapon as a Necromancer at this level. I'm just not convinced it's a good enough reason. The effect is powerful but a +3 status bonus gets your attack barely to where that of your (unbuffed) martial allies are. I guess you could use it for spell attacks at least, though that does leave out the free thrall on hit. I can't see myself casting this in the heat of combat, ever. It's a decent pre-buff at least but I'm not sure I'd spend an 18th level feat on it instead of simply getting a wand of 6th rank heroism or two which really isn’t that big of an investment by level 18 and the effect is close enough. Making this available earlier (like level 6-ish) and letting its effect scale alongside heroism while keeping the duration at 1 minute seems like it would make melee necromancers something that's actually worth considering instead of being a novelty option. The class would still remain rather action-starved, so I don't think there's any risk of it overshadowing martial classes or other gish-y options like the warpriest.
Living Graveyard: Does the emanation only happen once when the Graveyard is summoned or is it a permanent aura-like effect?
And that's it. All the things that crossed my mind while reading the playtest and thinking about it for (too many) hours. Maybe there's something of value in my rambling. I promise to ramble more if anything else comes to mind.
You're probably going to create 2-3 thralls on round 1 (move, raise/cast shield or guidance, or whatever if you only create 2), then on round 2 create another thrall and cast your focus spell. Round 3 you consume thrall and cast a second focus spell. Round 4 can be create a thrall and cast a cantrip.
Use slotted spells as needed.
You're probably going to create 2-3 thralls on round 1 (move, raise/cast shield or guidance, or whatever if you only create 2), then on round 2 create another thrall and cast your focus spell. Round 3 you consume thrall and cast a second focus spell. Round 4 can be create a thrall and cast a cantrip.
Use slotted spells as needed.
That's... really awkward. I know they want this class to have an element of setup and payoff, but there's only ao much you can escape the actions economy gains frontloading damage gets you. Without a radical redesign of the d20 system, the first turn will always be the most important, and anemic first turns are going to seriously hurt the necromancer, especially since focus spells are often worse than similarly ranked slotted spells.
I am all for a snowballing necromancer, but there's only so much initial power you can give up, and casting create thrall multiple times on your turn is something to be avoided wherever possible.
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First turns are important, but having to spend part or all of the first round setting up isn't uncommon either. Activating stances, drawing weapons, casting important buff spells, moving into range. It's not that strange.
First turns are important, but having to spend part or all of the first round setting up isn't uncommon either. Activating stances, drawing weapons, casting important buff spells, moving into range. It's not that strange.
The problem is that the Necromancer is looking at double or triple the setup of other casters.
That's... really awkward.You're probably going to create 2-3 thralls on round 1 (move, raise/cast shield or guidance, or whatever if you only create 2), then on round 2 create another thrall and cast your focus spell. Round 3 you consume thrall and cast a second focus spell. Round 4 can be create a thrall and cast a cantrip.
Use slotted spells as needed.
What's awkward about getting in two flanking d6 attacks at range, or even a third non flanking one? Your first round 1st level Swashbuckler or Rogue with a rapier may slightly envy you - he maybe has to burn an action to close, can't self flank, and has the same chance to hit that you do and can't pick B/S damage options. (Yes, strength to damage. Yes, other martials using d8-d12.)
First turns are important, but having to spend part or all of the first round setting up isn't uncommon either. Activating stances, drawing weapons, casting important buff spells, moving into range. It's not that strange.The problem is that the Necromancer is looking at double or triple the setup of other casters.
The setup itself is valuable - flanking buddies for the party or thrall pairs, actions to destroy (the GM is metagaming if a guy who just got stabbed by one of these never stabs back), for flesh subclass potential difficult terrain creation. At later levels with feats you're setting up defensive and offensive reactions.
You're probably going to create 2-3 thralls on round 1 (move, raise/cast shield or guidance, or whatever if you only create 2), then on round 2 create another thrall and cast your focus spell. Round 3 you consume thrall and cast a second focus spell. Round 4 can be create a thrall and cast a cantrip.
This assumes that
- None of the thralls is destroyed by an area effect or MAP-10 Strike from an enemy that has nothing better to do with that action.
- The positioning of the first turn thralls is still relevant on turn 2. At least one of the initial focus spells (Bone Spear) has a rather awkward range and area combination.
- I don't want/need to destroy any of the thralls for another ability like Reach of the Dead, Body Shield or Bone Burst.
- I actually get some use out of my focus spell at turn 2. At least Dead Weight seems like it will be way more useful at turn 2 than at turn 1.
It also ignores the fact that many other casters will be more effective with turn 1 Stride > Focus spell followed by turn 2 Strike (crossbow or whatever) > save cantrip. The necromancer does have the upside of potential flanking and blocking squares of course.
I'm not saying the necromancer is unplayable at level 1, mind you, just needlessly complicated. Your inital focus spells are effectively three actions. You're supposedly a focus-based caster but you only have one focus point and regaining that in combat also takes two actions. If you want/need to move, Recall Knowledge or an enemy looks funny at your thralls between your turns, your whole action economy crumbles - and not just for one turn, but potentially multiple turns.
Neither the thralls nor the focus spells seem impactful enough to warrant their big action investment.
The most baffling thing about all this is that it just goes away at level 7. Well, not completely of course, but a second thrall makes the whole thing so incredibly easier to manage, allowing set ups and tactics that were literally impossible before. I can't think of another class that has such a "waking up" moment around level 7 that utterly changes how they approach each turn. The closest I can think of is a witch getting Effortless Concentration or a ranger getting Swift Prey, but even those don't feel quite as impactful and they are much higher level.
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Anyway, I strongly believe the necromancer needs more thralls at the lowest levels to make the class play as smoothly as it does at level 7+. Be it from create thrall itself or some other ability. And no, I don't think Inevitable Return at level 3 is enough (though I really like this ability). Maybe you can create one or two thralls adjcent to you when rolling initiative, similar to how barbarians can Rage. That would at least help a bit.
Maybe you can create one or two thralls adjcent to you when rolling initiative, similar to how barbarians can Rage. That would at least help a bit.
i do think an ability along these lines would be some nice QoL
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First turns are important, but having to spend part or all of the first round setting up isn't uncommon either. Activating stances, drawing weapons, casting important buff spells, moving into range. It's not that strange.The problem is that the Necromancer is looking at double or triple the setup of other casters.
I think this is offset at least a bit by the fact that the setup is also basically an attack. Having a move and a couple attacks is a pretty normal first round for a lot of classes and this is also setting up a couple thralls to work with. Now if the cantrip only summoned thralls with no other effect it would be problematic for sure.
It is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I am guessing a lot of thralls are going to get smacked down by third attacks but every thrall getting smacked down is one attack that is not potentially hitting a party member of literally anything else more useful. I think it will be interesting to see in play how it is on paper I think it should work but it is weird enough I will need to see how it plays out.