What does the mind reading spell mean when it says "vague surface thoughts" precisely?
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I would say it's generally "things related to a person's immediate task, or what they anticipate following it".
Like "where did I leave that hammer" or "Looking forward to having lunch."
But nothing related to like long term plans, or deep-seated fears, etc.
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What does the mind reading spell mean when it says "vague surface thoughts" precisely?
I'm pretty sure there is an oxymoron in there somewhere.
I'm pretty sure there is an oxymoron in there somewhere.
That is an excellent example of vague surface thoughts, but we are looking for a definition.
It is rather vague, in't it?
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When you really think about it the question falls apart.
I mean what a npc is thinking is made up by a gm usually on the spot based on what the gm thinks that npc would be thinking.
But if your being more intentional it can really be a way for a player to gain information the gm wanted the players to have. Especially a clue to moving forward.
Unless its an npc in an ap with a section that actually says what to say if a player reads their mind.
Its kind of an annoying spell actually.
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The purpose for the language is to make it clear you are not probing the mind of the target, just getting a sense of what they are thinking about at this moment. I think the vague is there to prevent a player from expecting to learn things like specific passwords, or exact physical descriptions of people the caster hasn’t met.
Yeah, the language of "vague surface thoughts" is there to give the GM permission to not give you stuff like "the password", or "the identity of the big boss", or "the secret entrance", or "the meeting place".
It's a spell that should (usually) give you some useful information if you cast it on the right person in the right context, but it's not a spell that gives you straight up answers to mysteries or hurdles.
So...it's useless then?
Its kind of an annoying spell actually.
Indeed it's so annoying for players who thought it was going to give them something noteworthy that the game developers gave it the Uncommon rarity to warn them away.
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It's a very reliable indicator for "this person is lying to you" I have found.
But you sort of have to cast it on faith that the GM is going to give you information to move the plot along (just not information that short circuits it). Also that's assuming you're casting it on the right target, not just some random person.
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So...it's useless then?
Its kind of an annoying spell actually.Indeed it's so annoying for players who thought it was going to give them something noteworthy that the game developers gave it the Uncommon rarity to warn them away.
My opinion is that a good GM makes it useful until its overused. Then you start getting laundry lists.
My opinion is that a good GM makes it useful until its overused. Then you start getting laundry lists.
Considering that it costs a Rank 3 spell slot each time that it is cast, what would you consider overusing the spell?
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I think "overuse" in this case would be something like:
- in a context where the PCs primary goal is to learn some piece of information that will move the plot along, when the only tactic the PCs consider is "going around mind-reading people" you're eventually going to make that less effective so the players have to come up with a second strategy.
Spell slots are very valuable on a day where you do a lot of fighting, and pretty expendable on days when you're expecting to do almost no fighting.
The point is to make reconnaissance and information gathering activities available to the entire party, regardless of their class and what spells they do or don't know.
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New Player: I cast mind reading.
GM: Again? That’s like the sixth time today!
New Player: Yeah. So?
GM: You can’t possibly cast it that many times at your level.
New Player: But I’m a psychic.
GM: …
New Player: A. psychic.
GM: How do you think this works?
New Player: Psychics read minds. That’s like, their whole thing, ya’know?
GM: That’s not how any of this works.
New Player: Wait, you mean my psychic can’t read minds? That’s literally the definition of being psychic!
GM: You can read minds, just not at-will. There are limits.
New Player: Limits? So you’re saying my psychic gets tired from thinking too much? That’s like saying a barbarian gets winded from yelling too loud!
GM: Well, actually—
New Player: And what’s next? Wizards can’t just magic up free snacks whenever they want?
GM: That’s literally what prestidigitation is for.
New Player: Oh, great! So the wizard gets unlimited snacks, but my psychic can’t think without taking a nap? Balanced game design right there!
GM: Look, you have a spell slot system. It’s there to keep things fair.
New Player: Fair? Fair is me knowing what’s in the enemy’s head whenever I want!
GM: That’s called overpowered, not fair.
New Player: I prefer to call it creative problem-solving.
GM: And I prefer not having to rewrite the villain’s monologue every time you cheat your way into their brain. It’s called suspense!
New Player: Oh, so now I know the villain’s name is Sus Spence?
GM: …Roll initiative.
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In combat, I think Minding Reading can be fairly useful with the right GM. If your party is the kind of party that likes trying to understand the motive of enemies and sometimes even de-escalate fights, figuring out if an enemy is attacking because they are hungry, defending a nest, following orders, etc, can be a pretty useful bit of information.
As a GM, I have been known to have enemies act unusually in the first round or two of combat to subtly project that there might be more to the encounter or the encounter environment than meets the eye, and would absolutely let "we just got to get them to walk over here into the trap" to be the kind of surface thought that would be at the front of someone's mind in a stressful situation.
The trick to using Read Minds in any of the non-combat encounter situations where it feels like it would really be useful is that the spell has a one minute max duration on top of having to be sustained. So, while it feels like it would be good in a social encounter or even just making an impression, it takes a fair bit of back and forth with the GM to arbitrate how and when you would be able to use it to your benefit in those situations. This is true of a ton of abilities in PF2 though, because almost all spells and skill feats are written for how they would be used in combat encounter lengths of time/number of actions, when a lot of the game doesn't really happen at that pace. Personally, as a GM, if a player said they wanted to use the spell during an interrogation, negotiation, gathering information or social encounter, I would first ask if they have the ability to cast the spell subtly, because for some reason the spell itself is not subtle. Then if they did, I would probably grant them a decent circumstance bonus based upon how they want to use it and possibly also toss in a free bit of information, especially something about whether what the target was thinking about at the time made sense with the outcome of the social encounter/check. Narratively, I would say that the caster then cast the spell towards the end of the activity in order to be able to feel out the outcome, or in the case of something like making an impression, maybe I would say they used it early on to get a feel for how to approach impressing the target. I get that it kind of breaks the narrative scene to run it that way, but I just don't see most folks successfully run social encounters as fully improvised scenes in real time without excluding most of the table.
In combat, I think Minding Reading can be fairly useful with the right GM. If your party is the kind of party that likes trying to understand the motive of enemies and sometimes even de-escalate fights, figuring out if an enemy is attacking because they are hungry, defending a nest, following orders, etc, can be a pretty useful bit of information.
As a GM, I have been known to have enemies act unusually in the first round or two of combat to subtly project that there might be more to the encounter or the encounter environment than meets the eye, and would absolutely let "we just got to get them to walk over here into the trap" to be the kind of surface thought that would be at the front of someone's mind in a stressful situation.
The trick to using Read Minds in any of the non-combat encounter situations where it feels like it would really be useful is that the spell has a one minute max duration on top of having to be sustained. So, while it feels like it would be good in a social encounter or even just making an impression, it takes a fair bit of back and forth with the GM to arbitrate how and when you would be able to use it to your benefit in those situations. This is true of a ton of abilities in PF2 though, because almost all spells and skill feats are written for how they would be used in combat encounter lengths of time/number of actions, when a lot of the game doesn't really happen at that pace. Personally, as a GM, if a player said they wanted to use the spell during an interrogation, negotiation, gathering information or social encounter, I would first ask if they have the ability to cast the spell subtly, because for some reason the spell itself is not subtle. Then if they did, I would probably grant them a decent circumstance bonus based upon how they want to use it and possibly also toss in a free bit of information, especially something about whether what the target was thinking about at the time made sense with the outcome of the social encounter/check. Narratively, I would say that the...
I really like your holistic approach to thinking about the game Unicore
I didn’t contextualize that very well. I was saying with a GM that tends to have more fluid combat encounters that can turn into negations/explode into collapsed encounters/etc, and you see an enemy act strangely, a spell like this might explain exactly why (the monster is trying to lure us into a trap, the monster is hungry and could be bribed with food/the monster is defending its young) with no additional check necessary and certainty you didn’t miss something with a bad secret perception check. It is GM dependent for sure, but at tables I play with it has some serious utility at high levels where a third rank slot isn’t that costly. Getting creatures to ally with us in dungeons has been a massive game changer when fighting intelligent creatures that gang up into impossible encounters.
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I really like your holistic approach to thinking about the game Unicore
Same. It's one of the things that I really like about Unicore as both a GM and community poster.
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Y’all know how to make a Unicorn blush.
New Player: And what’s next? Wizards can’t just magic up free snacks whenever they want?
Believe me - you don't want to eat the snacks made with Prestidigitation.
The food from Create Food tastes pretty bad, but at least it is edible.