Hi guys, I posted before on Pathfinder General Discussion (as seen here: Thread), but the good people there recommended that I post here, so here we are.
Remembering, I want to try some mock combats to better learn (or remember...) the rules, as, even though I still have the grasp on the basic things, some details elude me. So, if you guys can help me, it would be very appreciated.
Ok, so now lets move on with a sample scenario. I thought about something simple and easy, an owlbear against two dire wolves. By extrapolation on the rules for encounters for PCs, a Owlbear (Creature Level 4) should be a Severe encounter for the Dire Wolves.
For the set up, let’s say that the wolves are a couple, and their lair is in a forest. One of the wolves notice the owlbear roaming nearby at the same time that it notices the wolf, as both weren’t trying to be stealthy.
Knowing its partner can potentially flank and surprise the owlbear, and not wanting it to get anymore near their lair (and pups), it will growl and bare its teeth. In game terms, it will use the Aid action to assist the other Wolf in its Stealth check. Is that allowed for Initiative checks?
Anyway, to Aid it will have to roll something versus DC 15, I’m guessing that Survival will suffice. It have Survival at +10, so it rolls 1d20+10.
Wolf1 Aid(Survival - 1d20+10 -> (10)+10 = 20, a simple success, so the other Wolf will have +1 to its Stealth, as its partner growls and draws attention to it. The wolves’ objective is to make the owlbear retreat, and the owlbear’s objective is to defend itself from the wolves.
The owlbear perceives it as a threat display, and they will all roll Initiative. Wolf1 and the Owlbear will roll their Perception (respectively +10 and +13), while Wolf2 will roll Stealth+1 (or +9…).
The results are: Wolf1 13(3), Wolf2 17(7), Owlbear 16(3), so the stealthy wolf goes first.
I'll attach the map with the starting round. Do note that the areas with trees are considered Difficult Terrain, so each square costs 5 extra feet of movement. Also, the trees count as Standard Cover, so Wolf2 has a further +2 to its Stealth score (does it help its Initiative?).
Anyway, even at a Stealth result of 19, it is not enough to succeed versus the Owlbear’s Perception DC of 23, so Wolf2 is undetected, but noticed.
Is that about right? I will wait a little to post the first round.
Let's take a look here! I'm not sure that a mock NPC vs NPC battle is going to be the best way to review/learn the rules as they function quite a bit differently than PCs (moreso than they did in PF1), but we can take a looksee.
By extrapolation on the rules for encounters for PCs, a Owlbear (Creature Level 4) should be a Severe encounter for the Dire Wolves.
I think this would be the first snag in terms of "yesssssss... but probably not?" That is to say that the Encounter Building guidlines take into account the PCs will have plenty more actions and abilities in combat that dial in the difficulty correctly. To better illustrate it, if you reversed the point of view and the player perspective was the Owlbear, the two Dire Wolves would be a beyond Extreme encounter.
In game terms, it will use the Aid action to assist the other Wolf in its Stealth check. Is that allowed for Initiative checks?
I don't believe that you can Aid Initiative. With the three modes of play (Downtime, Exploration, and Encounter), Initiative acts as the transition from Exploration to Encounter which makes it a tricky thing to prepare for. As in, if you are preparing for combat, you're likely entering Encounter mode and thus need Initiative. Thankfully, there is an easier solution for PC-facing actions, which is the Scout exploration activity.
So to keep everything you've done so far kosher, it's fairly easy to treat the wolves as each using the Exploration Activities Scout and Avoid Notice.
What is it that you're looking to work on, out of curiosity? I didn't want to interrupt what you're doing, but if you're looking for input or insight, there are plenty of knowledgable people on the forums. If you're looking to just test out a game, there are plenty of Play-By-Post games here on the Paizo site or on separate servers - and I'm sure there would be plenty of people ready and willing to run a slower paced game to help figure out rules questions. It also solves the "solitaire problem" of doing this alone.
Hey, Ruzza, thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it!
I'm trying to grasp the entire system, transitions between "modes" included, and I think that I learn better while actively trying the rules by myself, call it "learning by messing up", if you will.
About the scenes using creatures interacting with creatures instead of player characters and creatures, I think that it is more interesting this way, and, to use player characters I would have to actively build them, which is another problem in itself.
But I understand if it is not doable/allowed here.
Now, for the anwsers, so, if they were in Exploration Mode, wolf1 can't help wolf2 with its "Avoid Notice" test? In the action is explained that your check is both used to Avoid Notice and to Initiative.
I'm trying to grasp the entire system, transitions between "modes" included, and I think that I learn better while actively trying the rules by myself, call it "learning by messing up", if you will.
I think that's a great idea and I don't think there would be anyone actively opposing it or anything! I'd love to answer as many questions as you may have.
About the scenes using creatures interacting with creatures instead of player characters and creatures, I think that it is more interesting this way, and, to use player characters I would have to actively build them, which is another problem in itself.
It's totally okay to do, but you just likely won't get the answer you're looking for with NPCs because the system isn't really designed to accomodate NPC stats in place of PC stats (like you can see with two dire wolves being a more difficult challenge for a single owlbear than an owlbear would be for the dire wolves). PCs are the presumed winners of encounters with the NPCs being out hapless casualties.
Now it's more complicated, but there are the free to use Pregenerated Character Sheets that can get you closer to what a sample combat would look like. I did mention that the Play-By-Post forums would be a good place to cut your teeth as well if you don't want all the math and decision making to be on your end (but I imagine that's a bit more of a commitment than you may be looking for). I, myself, run quite a number of Play-By-Post games and would be happy to throw up a mock combat thread to go through some things with you if you'd like, though!
Now, for the anwsers, so, if they were in Exploration Mode, wolf1 can't help wolf2 with its "Avoid Notice" test? In the action is explained that your check is both used to Avoid Notice and to Initiative.
So, I guess the conversation I would have at a table would go something like this:
Wolf 1 Player: I'd like to call out a warning to Wolf 2. Is that an Aid?
Well, what were you doing before the Owlbear spotted you?
Wolf 1 Player: I was sniffing the air for dangers.
Wolf 2 Player: And I was laying low, hunting.
Okay, since the Owlbear spotted you both, initiative would get rolled right now. You don't really have the space for an action and a reaction to do so, but since you were Scouting, you will both get the +1 circumstance to your initiative. Wolf 2, as you were Avoiding Notice, you also get to roll Stealth for initiative and will remain unnoticed or hidden depending.
Like, I think the issue would be that Aid (something you can definitely do in Exploration mode) is something that you set up to do and combat is really started quite quickly - typically just when one force notices the other.
Consider a band of thieves sneaking into a vault, each Avoiding Notice. They see a guard and now the GM has to determine if the guard has noticed them. The guard rolls Perception while the thieves all roll Stealth for Initiative and then the scene gets described. There isn't any room for the thieves to give each other a high-sign in terms of an Aid action. The term "Scout action" might be a bit of a misnomer as it's more of an "Alert" sort of action - ever ready and on-guard, ready to keep your party members on the balls of their feet.
So while I don't really see anything prohibiting an Aid action on an initiative check, I also don't see how it could be done in terms of action cost.
Let's take a look here! I'm not sure that a mock NPC vs NPC battle is going to be the best way to review/learn the rules as they function quite a bit differently than PCs (moreso than they did in PF1), but we can take a looksee.
By extrapolation on the rules for encounters for PCs, a Owlbear (Creature Level 4) should be a Severe encounter for the Dire Wolves.I think this would be the first snag in terms of "yesssssss... but probably not?" That is to say that the Encounter Building guidlines take into account the PCs will have plenty more actions and abilities in combat that dial in the difficulty correctly. To better illustrate it, if you reversed the point of view and the player perspective was the Owlbear, the two Dire Wolves would be a beyond Extreme encounter.
I agree with Ruzza that a monster versus monster combat will function differently than a party versus monster combat. The monsters are built to be especially strong in two or three tactics while player characters lack that focused strength but are very versatile.
As for relative strength, an Owlbear is creature 4, a Dire Wolf is creature 3, and two Dire Wolves would be equivalent to creature 5, 44% stronger than a creature 4. Since the Owlbear is 71% as strong as the Dire Wolves, the wolves could call this a Severe-Threat encounter if they could speak.
In game terms, it will use the Aid action to assist the other Wolf in its Stealth check. Is that allowed for Initiative checks?
Woah! How did these creatures meet? Ordinarily, if both sides were wandering in the forest, the dire wolves would go into stealth and avoid the owlbear. The owlbear is too dangerous to serve as prey.
To teach how exploration mode turns into encounter mode, we would need to know what the creatures are doing before they meet. LoneCamper proposed the owlbear and the wolves are hunting. This is not one of the exploration activities in the rulebook, which instead uses the Subsist downtime activity for hunting. However, we can shoehorn them into real exploration activities. The dire wolves are hunting in Stealth, which is the Avoid Notice exploration activity that lets the creature uses a Stealth initiative roll to remain out of sight. The owlbear can Scout, an exploration activity that gives it a +1 circumstance bonus to initiative.
The Aid reaction can be used during exploration mode, but Aid requires preparation beforehand. Since the creatures have just encountered each other, they had no opportunity for preparation, so they cannot Aid for initiative. Furthermore, the hidden condition from both Hide and Sneak is revealed if the stealthy creature takes any action besides Hide, Sneak, or Step (though as a houserule I allow mental activities such as Recall Knowledge, too). Aid would break stealth. Keeping hidden will be more useful than higher initiative.
Let me play with a pseudorandom number generator here. My d20 rolls will be 10, 17, 4, 3, 11, 18, 5, 12, 19, 6, 13, 20, 7, 14, 1, 8,1 5, 2, 9, 16. My d10 rolls will be 5, 9, 2, 6, 10, 3, 7, 1, 4, 8. My d6 rolls will be 3, 5, 1, 4, 6, 2.
The owlbear rolls initiative based in its +13 Perception, 1d20(10)+13+1 = 24 (the +1 is from Scouting exploration activity). The female dire wolf rolls initiative based on its Stealth, 1d20(17)+8 = 25. The male dire wolf also rolls Stealth, 1d20(4)+8 = 12. The owlbear's Perception DC is 23, so the female wolf is hidden behind underbrush but the male wolf is seen. Ordinarily, the two wolves would avoid dangerous creatures like owlbears, but since one wolf was spotted, they cannot sneak away.
Reading the Dire Wolf's built-in tactics, we see that its Pack Attack is useless, because it requires 2 allies. Instead, the female dire wolf would plan a jaws attack. It Sneaks 15 feet to 10 feet south of the owlbear (because its jaws attack has reach), but rolls (1d20(3)+8=11) for the Sneak and the owlbear is not caught off-guard. The wolf rolls 1d20(11)+12 = 23 for the jaws Strike. That hits the owlbear's AC 21 and deals 1d10(5)+5 = 10 piercing damage. The owlbear is down to 60 hp. For the wolf's 3rd action, it attempts a Knockdown, a feature of its jaws attack that permits a Trip with no multiple attack penalty. It rolls its Athletics 1d20(18)+10 = 28, a critical success against the owlbear's Reflex DC 17. The owlbear falls prone and takes 1d6(3) falling damage, down to 57 hp.
The owlbear Stands and Steps to get adjacent to the female dire wolf, because its attacks lack reach. That leaves it with only one action remaining, so the Grab from its talon attack would be forfeited. It makes a beak attack, 1d20(5)+14 = 19. Despite its low roll on the dice, it hits the dire wolf's AC 18 for 1d12(6)+6 = 12 piercing damage. The female wolf is down to 38 hp.
The male dire wolf Strides its full 35-foot speed to flank the owlbear. It makes a jaws Strike 1d20(12)+12 = 24 for a hit and deals 1d10(9)+5 = 14 piercing damage. The owlbeak is down to 43 hp. Its 2nd action is Knockdown, 1d20(19)+10 = 29, another critical success to knock the owlbear prone and deal 1d6(5) falling damage. The owlbear is down to 38 hp. Its 3rd action is a 2nd jaws Strike, 1d20(6)+12-5 = 13, a miss.
And that is the end of the 1st round. The female dire wolf is injured. The male dire wolf is unhurt. The owlbear is prone, flanked, and badly injured. On the 2nd round the wolves will continued their Knockdown tactics, but the owlbear will Stand and try Screeching Advance to frighten them while running away (despite the name, Screeching Advance can be used to retreat).
The scenario you outlined is pure DM call. There is no rule against, but no hard rule to support it either. If you as a DM feel the wolves can do it, then it works the way you decided it works. For hard coded rules with a firmer grounding, the combat rules are more defined. For transitioning from exploration to encounter, that is more of a DM design situation.
I would say your ruling for the wolf getting an initiative bonus due to the other wolf creating a diversion works fine. But in terms of module of play as a DM, you would just write this into the encounter set up without using the aid action.
There are a lot of modules designed that explain how the encounter opens. For the above, you would just write "The dire wolves are hunting as a duo. Wolf number one growls at the target while wolf number two uses stealth to ambush gaining a +2 initiative bonus due to wolf one providing a distraction."
We see this type of encounter set up with drunk or distracted targets in modules.
As a DM, I would have no trouble allowing a player to aid an initiative check with a distraction. If one player wanted to sneak up on another while the other provided a distraction, then I would allow one player to use Deception for initiative and if they exceeded the die roll for Aid and wanted to use their reaction, then allow the other to gain the rolled aid bonus to an initiative check.
Is there a hard rule for this? Not really. More of a guide for how to set it up and then the DM decides if it works. In PF2, do not be deterred from making a call to allow your players to set something up they put thought into using skills or good tactical play. PF2 is very open-ended with most of the hard coded rules for combat.
The scenario you outlined is pure DM call. There is no rule against, but no hard rule to support it either. If you as a DM feel the wolves can do it, then it works the way you decided it works. For hard coded rules with a firmer grounding, the combat rules are more defined. For transitioning from exploration to encounter, that is more of a DM design situation.
I have made those GM calls myself. The rules as written have a sharp transition between exploration mode and encounter mode. But sometimes game events call for a more complicated transition. For example, a few weeks ago a combat encounter ended with one PC still suffering from Wasp Swarm venom, which can last up to 6 rounds. That character and the healer character helping him remained in encounter mode as we counted down the rounds. The other characters had no reason to remain in encounter mode, so I let them start exploration activities.
One significant houserule I created was about triggering events. Often a stealthy party can decide when to start an encounter as they hide in exploration mode and watch their enemy. For example, they could be listening at a closed door and hear enemy guards talking. The encounter begins when they open the door. We discovered that if we roll for initiative before the door is opened, then most of the party waits until the party member chosen as the door opener acts. The characters, both in the party and in the guard room, who rolled higher initiative have their turns wasted. Thus. we made the rule that the door opener acts before initiative is rolled and then the door opener gets a regular turn during the first round. Likewise, sometimes in my Ironfang Invasion campaign, the party decided that their ambush of enemy patrols would start with the druid casting Fireball, so the two-action activity of casting a spell would occur before the first round.
This could be applied to the two dire wolves. If they see the owlbear while both are hidden, then they could have one wolf perform a triggering event, such as Create a Diversion to increase the chance that the other wolf could sneak up on the owlbear. Except that dire wolves are not trained in Deception, so Create a Diversion would probably fail. This scenario would work better with two PCs of playable ancestries trained in the proper skills.
Using Stealth skill to Aid another creature would require a good description of how that could work. Aid does say, "You must explain to the GM exactly how you're trying to help, and they determine whether you can Aid your ally." I have allowed Aid to Stealth before an ambush, with the PC highly skilled in Stealth checking that the less stealthy people are completely hidden behind concealing objects, but I don't see how to Aid on the fly. And Aiding in such a way so that the second wolf can act at higher initiative is even harder to imagine.
Easier than a +2 circumstance bonus to a Stealth roll for initiative would be setting up the dire wolf to roll on a skill other than the wolf's meager Stealth +8. The wolf has +10 to Perception, Athletics, and Survival. Rolling Perception for initiative is the default (Step 1: Roll Initiative), but that typically does not allow taking advantage of Avoid Notice.
Higher initiative is seldom worth such effort. Pathfinder 2nd Edition avoids the rocket tag (first to act will win) found in other roleplaying games.
The game is made for a group of four characters. So you might want to start with 4v4 combat and go from there.
2v1 means six actions compared to three, that is a huge difference.