Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk. For instance, full plate armor is 4 Bulk, a longsword is 1 Bulk, a dagger or scroll is light, and a piece of chalk is negligible. Ten light items count as 1 Bulk, and you round down fractions (so 9 light items count as 0 Bulk, and 11 light items count as 1 Bulk). Items of negligible Bulk don’t count toward Bulk unless you try to carry vast numbers of them, as determined by the GM.
Does the above mean that if I possess a container with Bulk storage limitations, such as a backpack, empty head, or cheek pouches, that I can actually have +9L more than the listed limits?
For example, a backpack can hold up to 4 Bulk. Can I squeeze 4B 9L worth of gear, since the 9L rounds down to 4 total Bulk?
If you don't think this is (or should be) possible, why not?
Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk. For instance, full plate armor is 4 Bulk, a longsword is 1 Bulk, a dagger or scroll is light, and a piece of chalk is negligible. Ten light items count as 1 Bulk, and you round down fractions (so 9 light items count as 0 Bulk, and 11 light items count as 1 Bulk). Items of negligible Bulk don’t count toward Bulk unless you try to carry vast numbers of them, as determined by the GM.Does the above mean that if I possess a container with Bulk storage limitations, such as a backpack, empty head, or cheek pouches, that I can actually have +9L more than the listed limits?
For example, a backpack can hold up to 4 Bulk. Can I squeeze 4B 9L worth of gear, since the 9L rounds down to 4 total Bulk?
If you don't think this is (or should be) possible, why not?
There is a reason you only put 999 coins in a bag, as you can have as many of those as you want. Put one more coin in them, and now they are L bulk and add up towards your limits. ;)
Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk. For instance, full plate armor is 4 Bulk, a longsword is 1 Bulk, a dagger or scroll is light, and a piece of chalk is negligible. Ten light items count as 1 Bulk, and you round down fractions (so 9 light items count as 0 Bulk, and 11 light items count as 1 Bulk). Items of negligible Bulk don’t count toward Bulk unless you try to carry vast numbers of them, as determined by the GM.Does the above mean that if I possess a container with Bulk storage limitations, such as a backpack, empty head, or cheek pouches, that I can actually have +9L more than the listed limits?
For example, a backpack can hold up to 4 Bulk. Can I squeeze 4B 9L worth of gear, since the 9L rounds down to 4 total Bulk? If you don't think this is (or should be) possible, why not?
RAW? Well, it says it only holds 4 bulk, but it also says that light items don't count until they add up to a bulk. Since you round down, 4.9 effectively equals 4.0 for rule purposes. So you can argue that it works.
That's also clearly silly because 4.9 > 4.0, so you can also argue it doesn't work if you understand math. So you can argue that it doesn't work because it makes no sense in reality.
I tend to let it slide because it works in the former way for encumbrance (4.9 is 4 encumbrance) and consistency is helpful in rules... and also the bulk don't make real sense if you think about them or get into any but the most basic scenarios. So "realism" isn't that compelling an argument in this case because the bulk system is nonsensically unrealistic anyway.
Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk. For instance, full plate armor is 4 Bulk, a longsword is 1 Bulk, a dagger or scroll is light, and a piece of chalk is negligible. Ten light items count as 1 Bulk, and you round down fractions (so 9 light items count as 0 Bulk, and 11 light items count as 1 Bulk). Items of negligible Bulk don’t count toward Bulk unless you try to carry vast numbers of them, as determined by the GM.Does the above mean that if I possess a container with Bulk storage limitations, such as a backpack, empty head, or cheek pouches, that I can actually have +9L more than the listed limits?
For example, a backpack can hold up to 4 Bulk. Can I squeeze 4B 9L worth of gear, since the 9L rounds down to 4 total Bulk?
If you don't think this is (or should be) possible, why not?
RAW, yes. 4 Bulk, 9L is just 4 Bulk for the rules, so your backpack can hold that much (and for the character, it'll only be 2 bulk's worth of encumbrance).
It's something you need to deal with when dealing with abstract rules like Bulk. Being able to fit 4 bulk + 9 L bulk into a backpack that holds up to 4 bulk is relatively minor compared to the fact that a buckler, a shortsword and a dagger are all the same bulk, or a host of ther "lol, wut?" things you can find in the bulk system.
I just treat that 9L bulk as really stuffing things in all the odd corners and edges. If your 4B suitcase is filled with 4B 9L, you have shirts tied to the handles.
I was thinking that I will likely permit it in games that I host, though if they do go a few L over the Bulk limit, then their container looks visually overstuffed to anyone who looks at it. XD
Edit: QuidEst beat me to it. :P
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Why would you want to? you're not getting any advantage out of doing it.
There is a reason you only put 999 coins in a bag, as you can have as many of those as you want. Put one more coin in them, and now they are L bulk and add up towards your limits. ;)Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk. For instance, full plate armor is 4 Bulk, a longsword is 1 Bulk, a dagger or scroll is light, and a piece of chalk is negligible. Ten light items count as 1 Bulk, and you round down fractions (so 9 light items count as 0 Bulk, and 11 light items count as 1 Bulk). Items of negligible Bulk don’t count toward Bulk unless you try to carry vast numbers of them, as determined by the GM.Does the above mean that if I possess a container with Bulk storage limitations, such as a backpack, empty head, or cheek pouches, that I can actually have +9L more than the listed limits?
For example, a backpack can hold up to 4 Bulk. Can I squeeze 4B 9L worth of gear, since the 9L rounds down to 4 total Bulk?
If you don't think this is (or should be) possible, why not?
As is pointed out every time you say this, you're still carrying all of the coins.
The Bulk system is abstract, but in being abstract it is able to cover more than the old system that only accounts for weight. It is less precise, but it is also more realistic.
And being less precise is a good thing. It's a game. Ease of play over unnecessary fiddliness (that almost never matters anyway) is an important factor.
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As is pointed out every time you say this, you're still carrying all of the coins.
But each is its own discrete object: just as you don't add together multiple pieces of negligible chalk, you don't add together multiple bags of negligible bulk coins. It's like how a "Huge creature treats items of 1 Bulk as negligible, so it can carry any number of items of 1 Bulk." If you do it like you suggest, they could carry any number of 1 bulk items, but if they carry 2 bags of coins that are 1 bulk each, they suddenly have to treat it differently than every other 1 bulk item... You're ignoring that bulk involves "size, weight, and general awkwardness", and a single pile of coins has a different "size, weight, and general awkwardness" than smaller bags of them. much like individual pieces of chalk are different than a 1 Bulk piece of chalk.
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As is pointed out every time you say this, you're still carrying all of the coins.
But they take up less space somehow. A bag of 999 coins is negligible bulk. 2 bags of 500 coins is less bulk than 1 bag of 1000 coins. Hell, RAW, 10 bags of 500 coins is less bulk than 1 bag of 1000 coins.
The Bulk system is abstract, but in being abstract it is able to cover more than the old system that only accounts for weight. It is less precise, but it is also more realistic.
And being less precise is a good thing. It's a game. Ease of play over unnecessary fiddliness (that almost never matters anyway) is an important factor.
Bulk is significantly more fiddly and less realistic than weight. Bulk gives us silly things like "you can carry max 4, but 4.9 is 4"... and then totally nonsensical things, like this:
1 Longbow = 2 Longswords = 20 Shortswords (assuming all medium size) when a human is carrying them out as treasure, which is kind of silly but as a quick approximation works to keep the game moving. Put them on a Centaur, and suddenly 1 Longbow = 20 Longswords = ? Shortswords. I love that suddenly shortswords are so easy to carry that they've gone from 1/10th a Longsword to "the game can't even tell you what number this is and the GM will have to make something up."
This is not realistic. It's nonsensical to the point of absurdity. Fundamentally this system is so lacking in precision that it works fine inside a narrow window of a typical small/medium size party dealing with small/medium size treasure, and works extremely poorly as soon as you get outside that.
Weight had its own issues, but it scaled up and down in ways that made sense and were easy to understand. It's big problem was that with a lot of items it was just hard to track.
Hell, the last time I tried to figure out how bulk for Tiny PCs was even supposed to work with their gear, I just found the whole thing so stupid that I handwaved it away as the GM and said "if its part of your normal equipment, you can carry it."
If I'm carrying two bags of 500 coins each, I'm carrying 1 bulk of coins, not negligible bulk of coins.
The bulk rules don't care where they are on your person, how you might have divided them up, or in which container they reside; not unless said container reduces bulk (such as a backpack or a spacious pouch).
If I'm carrying two bags of 500 coins each, I'm carrying 1 bulk of coins, not negligible bulk of coins.
The bulk rules don't care where they are on your person, how you might have divided them up, or in which container they reside; not unless said container reduces bulk (such as a backpack or a spacious pouch).
Which would make coins magical items that operate differently than similar shaped and sized [and similar bulk] items. Somehow a Huge creatures can carry 50 longswords without issue but they pick up 2 pouches of 1000 coins and they then magically combine to create a bigger item that they then have to track? I mean, if someone puts items in a container and then picks up said container, don't you add up the contents plus the container for total bulk? Why would you do something different when said container holds coins? Nothing in the Bulk section says you'd do it differently. Where does it say to combine items from different containers?
The rules say 1,000 coins is 1 bulk. Full stop.
Don't try to obfuscate matters with examples involving a completely different class of creatures. :P
The rules say 1,000 coins is 1 bulk. Full stop.
Don't try to obfuscate matters with your fancy vocabulary. :P
Fancy vocabulary? Your "obfuscate" is fancier than any word I used. I just used simple logic, that's all. You either think three 1 bulk bags of coins are somehow harder for a Huge creature to carry than 3 1 bulk bags of [insert item, like coal] or you don't.
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As is pointed out every time you say this, you're still carrying all of the coins.But each is its own discrete object:
Each coin is. There's a specific rule for coins since they're exceptionally small but likely to be carried in large quantities. Look at that: The more specific rule you wanted, and you're ignoring it.
just as you don't add together multiple pieces of negligible chalk, you don't add together multiple bags of negligible bulk coins.
You made that up. Specifically, you made that up to be wrong. Maybe an argument where you're wrong on purpose doesn't actually make something else look ridiculous.
It's like how a "Huge creature treats items of 1 Bulk as negligible, so it can carry any number of items of 1 Bulk." If you do it like you suggest, they could carry any number of 1 bulk items, but if they carry 2 bags of coins that are 1 bulk each, they suddenly have to treat it differently than every other 1 bulk item... You're ignoring that bulk involves "size, weight, and general awkwardness", and a single pile of coins has a different "size, weight, and general awkwardness" than smaller bags of them. much like individual pieces of chalk are different than a 1 Bulk piece of chalk.
The rule can be summarized as "everybody also can have some coins, don't worry about it unless it's egregious."
If you want to be super fiddly and worry about separately tracking the value and weight of every separate coin--even though it only matters when there's a bunch of them--fine. But mocking the rules just for saying not to worry too much about it?It looks ridiculous, and you really don't have to pop into every thread that even incidentally. Oh, does the simplified abstract model fail when you make theoretical intentionally-absurd extreme outliers? Okay, but you haven't made a point about actually using it in a real situation.
As is pointed out every time you say this, you're still carrying all of the coins.But they take up less space somehow. A bag of 999 coins is negligible bulk. 2 bags of 500 coins is less bulk than 1 bag of 1000 coins. Hell, RAW, 10 bags of 500 coins is less bulk than 1 bag of 1000 coins.
See previously quoted response, since you just restated the same thing I responded to in the first place... which you also quoted right there.
Two bags of 500 coins means you have 1000 coins. They weigh the same. Ten bags of 500 coins would be 5000 coins. It's five times as much.
It's not complicated.
(Also, two bags of 500 coins would be easier to transport, so even if that was true it wouldn't make your point.)
Hell, the last time I tried to figure out how bulk for Tiny PCs was even supposed to work with their gear, I just found the whole thing so stupid that I handwaved it away as the GM and said "if its part of your...
And that's exactly why the rules are more complicated than that. For your own gear, you could just use the normal rules. But if you want to account for carrying anything else--like treasure--or anyone else carrying the Tiny person's gear, you need rules for it.
But "more complicated" is only by comparison, and it still isn't that complicated. Tiny items have half Bulk. For this purpose, half of 1 is L, half of L is negligible. Tiny creatures have half Bulk limit. Negligible items count as L. For the most part, this cancels out so Tiny characters can carry about the same amount of gear.
Done.
Each coin is.
My argument is that each CONTAINER is an item made up of its contents and its own bulk. You don't take out each item to recount bulk when you pick up another sack, pouch, ect but just add the bulk of the entire package.
You made that up. Specifically, you made that up to be wrong. Maybe an argument where you're wrong on purpose doesn't actually make something else look ridiculous.
Not at all. You pick up 3 bags of coal that are each 1 bulk, you have 3 individual items that are 1 bulk. If you pick up 3 bags of coins that are 1 bulk, the same thing happens: they don't merge into a single bag of coins that's 3 bulk. If I pick up 2 sacks of 1000 coins, 1 in each hand, I'm not carrying a single item that's 2 bulk.
Each coin is.My argument is that each CONTAINER is an item made up of its contents and its own bulk. You don't take out each item to recount bulk when you pick up another sack, pouch, ect but just add the bulk of the entire package.
I could see a GM ruling thus for the sake of ease of play in certain circumstances.
I myself usually don't really enforce the fact that a Medium creature (6 Bulk) wearing full plate (4 Bulk), and a bunch of miscellaneous gear (2 Bulk) to be 13 Bulk when his allies are trying to carry his unconscious butt to safety. I usually say something like "treat it as 8 or 9 Bulk" because I get that having things bundled together generally makes it easier to haul.
That being said, that's not what the rules indicate. If you're adhering to RAW strictly, then you need to add it all up (13 in the above example).
You made that up. Specifically, you made that up to be wrong. Maybe an argument where you're wrong on purpose doesn't actually make something else look ridiculous.Not at all. You pick up 3 bags of coal that are each 1 bulk, you have 3 individual items that are 1 bulk. If you pick up 3 bags of coins that are 1 bulk, the same thing happens: they don't merge into a single bag of coins that's 3 bulk. If I pick up 2 sacks of 1000 coins, 1 in each hand, I'm not carrying a single item that's 2 bulk.
Coin rules are more specific than the general rule governing your bags, ergo, it takes precedent.