Wandering Chef Dedication issues

[AlwaysAMage]

The second paragraph of the Wandering Chef Dedication says:

You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits, but can use it only to make consumables, and the consumables must be alchemical food (such as those presented on pages 104-105 or on pages 46-51 of the Pathfinder Treasure Vault). Any items you choose with Alchemical Crafting must be an alchemical food, but they can be 1st or 2nd level instead of only 1st level.

I have two issues with how this is worded:

1) The first sentence says you can only make alchemical food but "Food" is not a trait so, other than going to Nethys, there is no way to be sure if something is food or not and even that isn't perfect because Nethys categorizes the Alchemical Tapas from page 46 of Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar as Alchemical Tools.

2) The second sentence alters the limitations of what kind of formulas you get from Alchemical Crafting and what level those formulas can be but does not change how many formulas you get (4) or what rarity they have to be (common). The problem here is that, as of this moment, there is only 1 common 1st level item and only 2 common 2nd level items listed as Alchemical Food on Nethys. So since there are only 3 common items that meet the restrictions listed in the Dedication feat does that mean that the Chef doesn't get a 4th item? Also, like with the first sentence, there's still the vagueness of what counts as alchemical food because "Food" isn't a trait.

Is there any chance someone at Paizo can give us an official ruling on this and/or an errata?

[Tridus]

Most of the time, common sense will tell you if something is food or not. Cooperative Waffles don't need a trait to determine that they're food, for example. This does make it harder to find all the valid items, but it's highly unlikely Paizo is going to errata multiple books to add a Food trait at this point.

If you're not sure, ask your GM for a ruling. There isn't really any other answer on that front right now.

[graystone]

Lets see... Wandering Chefs formulas would be Missive Mint, Menders Soup, cooperative waffles and Bravo's Brew. Not bad as it is better that the Tattoo Artist feat that didn't actually have 4 tattoos to take for a LONG time after it came out. I think it's more likely to see more foods published than any sort of errata fix, like was done for tattoos.

And, yeah, having alchemical foods in 3 categories on Nethys, food, tools and elixirs, is less than ideal. As to "there is no way to be sure if something is food or not", IMO it's pretty easy when it's call a food name, it's a food. So it it's called a beer, soup, mint, waffle, ect or when the description says it's cooked.

Now an idea would be to contact Archives of Nethys and see if the foods from other categories could be added to the food section. Now THAT might actually happen.

[ottdmk]

I've written "An Alchemist's Guide to Alchemical Items", and I've included a section that deals with Alchemical Foods. Please download it... the Google Drive PDF viewer is definitely not the best.

I haven't updated it to Player Core 2 yet, and definitely not the Tian Xia Character Guide (which I don't own yet.) But it's reasonably complete. Hopefully you can find it useful. Feedback is always welcome.

[Mangaholic13]

ottdmk wrote:

I've written "An Alchemist's Guide to Alchemical Items", and I've included a section that deals with Alchemical Foods. Please download it... the Google Drive PDF viewer is definitely not the best.

I haven't updated it to Player Core 2 yet, and definitely not the Tian Xia Character Guide (which I don't own yet.) But it's reasonably complete. Hopefully you can find it useful. Feedback is always welcome.

Ooooh! I'm definitely downloading this! Any chance you could put out a message after it gets updated for PC2 and TXCG?

[ottdmk]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

ottdmk wrote:

I've written "An Alchemist's Guide to Alchemical Items", and I've included a section that deals with Alchemical Foods. Please download it... the Google Drive PDF viewer is definitely not the best.

I haven't updated it to Player Core 2 yet, and definitely not the Tian Xia Character Guide (which I don't own yet.) But it's reasonably complete. Hopefully you can find it useful. Feedback is always welcome.

Ooooh! I'm definitely downloading this! Any chance you could put out a message after it gets updated for PC2 and TXCG?

Absolutely! I have a thread here in the Advice subforum where I invite discussion and post any updates.

[moosher12]

Personally, because Alchemical Archetype rules have a maximum item Level equal to your Level, I assumed the last sentence was a misprint, and that the writers probably read an earlier draft of the alchemy rules. So I simply capped the Level of food items you could make to your max level as my own interpretation.

[Errenor]

moosher12 wrote:

Personally, because Alchemical Archetype rules have a maximum item Level equal to your Level, I assumed the last sentence was a misprint, and that the writers probably read an earlier draft of the alchemy rules. So I simply capped the Level of food items you could make to your max level as my own interpretation.

If it's about that sentence about Alchemical Crafting, it doesn't cap your maximum item level for alchemy. It's a feat which (also) gives 4 1st level formulas. As there aren't that much achemical foods of 1st level, they allowed 2nd level formulas too (my guess). Then you can make items of your level ar normal.

[Ravingdork]

Did anyone else notice that the archetype acts as though you have Alchemical Crafting, but doesn't actually grant you that feat? There's nothing anywhere in the text that actually indicates that you get free formulas from the dedication at all in fact.

The dedication also doesn't seem to allow you to use Versatile Vials for anything other than bombs, which seems kind of odd for a chef.

Morning Side Dishes, as written, also appears to give you all of the benefits of Advanced Alchemy, and then ALSO allow you to create 5 alchemical food consumables during your daily preparations on top of those normal benefits.

Poorly written all around.

[Baarogue]

Ravingdork wrote:

Did anyone else notice that the archetype acts as though you have Alchemical Crafting, but doesn't actually grant you that feat? There's nothing anywhere in the text that actually indicates that you get free formulas from the dedication at all in fact.

The dedication also doesn't seem to allow you to use Versatile Vials for anything other than bombs, which seems kind of odd for a chef.

Morning Side Dishes, as written, also appears to give you all of the benefits of Advanced Alchemy, and then ALSO allow you to create 5 alchemical food consumables during your daily preparations on top of those normal benefits.

Poorly written all around.

>Did anyone else notice that the archetype acts as though you have Alchemical Crafting, but doesn't actually grant you that feat? There's nothing anywhere in the text that actually indicates that you get free formulas from the dedication at all in fact.

Wandering Chef Dedication, LO:TXCG p.100, "You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits..."
Quick Alchemy Benefits, PC2 p.174, "You gain the Alchemical Crafting feat..."
Alchemical Crafting feat, PC1 p.252, "When you select this feat, you immediately add the formulas for four common 1st-level alchemical items to your formula book (page 288)."
Wandering Chef Dedication, LO:TXCG p.100 (again), "Any items you choose with Alchemical Crafting must be alchemical food, but they can be 1st level or 2nd level instead of only 1st level."

I don't know what you're on about versatile vials or Morning Side Dishes. Having read the PC2 p.174 entries on Advanced & Quick Alchemy Benefits, their interactions with the text of Wandering Chef Dedication and Morning Side Dishes appear clear to me

[graystone]

Baarogue wrote:

Wandering Chef Dedication, LO:TXCG p.100, "You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits..."

I've had to point out Quick Alchemy benefits include the Alchemical Crafting feat a few times already. I'm not sure what it is about this particular rule that throws people.

[Baarogue]

graystone wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

Wandering Chef Dedication, LO:TXCG p.100, "You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits..."

I've had to point out Quick Alchemy benefits include the Alchemical Crafting feat a few times already. I'm not sure what it is about this particular rule that throws people.

Maybe they remember you get it from Adv. Alchemy Benefits and so forget you also can get it from QAB?

@RD, if after reading AAB & QAB again you still need a hand putting them together with the dedication and Morning Side Dishes just say what's missing and I'll fill in the blanks as I see them if someone else doesn't beat me to it

[Ravingdork]

This is the complete text for Quick Alchemy from Player Core 2:

Quick Alchemy You gain the Quick Alchemy action to make the items you need on the fly.

QUICK ALCHEMY [one-action]
[ALCHEMIST] [MANIPULATE]
Requirements You’re either holding or wearing an alchemist’s toolkit (Player Core 287) and you have a free hand.

You can either use up a versatile vial to make another alchemical consumable at a moment’s notice or create an especially short-lived versatile vial. Any effect created by an item made with Quick Alchemy that would have a duration longer than 10 minutes lasts for 10 minutes instead.
• Create Consumable You expend one of your versatile vials to create a single alchemical consumable item of your level or lower that’s in your formula book. You don’t have to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical raw materials or need to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn. (As normal, you need only one formula for an item to create any level of that item.)
• Quick Vial You create a versatile vial that can be used only as a bomb or for the versatile vial option from your research field (it can’t be used to create a consumable, for example). This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the end of your current turn.

No where does it say you get Alchemical Crafting. What am I missing?

[Ravingdork]

graystone wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

Wandering Chef Dedication, LO:TXCG p.100, "You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits..."

I've had to point out Quick Alchemy benefits include the Alchemical Crafting feat a few times already. I'm not sure what it is about this particular rule that throws people.

Ah I see now.

What I think probably happens, as was the case with me, is that people reference the Alchemist CLASS and not the Alchemy ARCHETYPE rules.

I'll have to look again, but is there even anything that directs you to the archetype rules, like a page number, anywhere?

[Errenor]

Ravingdork wrote:

I'll have to look again, but is there even anything that directs you to the archetype rules, like a page number, anywhere?

Yes, it's the words "Quick Alchemy benefits" and page numbers. At least in PC2.

Yes, apart from page numbers this does require some practice in rules reading.

[Ravingdork]

Errenor wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

I'll have to look again, but is there even anything that directs you to the archetype rules, like a page number, anywhere?

Yes, it's the words "Quick Alchemy benefits" and page numbers. At least in PC2.

Yes, apart from page numbers this does require some practice in rules reading.

Well, had it said "Rage benefits" would your first instinct not be to check the Barbarian class' rage ability?

I think this is where many people get it wrong. If you don't have some other source of intel telling you that there are new Alchemy rules in the Archetypes chapter, it is unlikely that you'd think to check there first.

I don't believe it has anything to do with reading comprehension or rules reading practice, but rather poor rules organization and layout.

I see now that Morning Side Dishes does have a page number, which is good--and that's on me for having missed it--but Wandering Chef Dedication does not and so can still easily mislead people as written.

Excerpt from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, by Douglas Adams wrote:

Mr. Prosser: “But the plans were on display…”

Arthur: “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
Mr. Prosser: “That’s the display department.”
Arthur: “With a torch.”
Mr. Prosser: “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
Arthur: “So had the stairs.”
Mr. Prosser: “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
Arthur: “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”

[Errenor]

Ravingdork wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

I'll have to look again, but is there even anything that directs you to the archetype rules, like a page number, anywhere?

Yes, it's the words "Quick Alchemy benefits" and page numbers. At least in PC2.

Yes, apart from page numbers this does require some practice in rules reading.

Well, had it said "Rage benefits" would your first instinct not be to check the Barbarian class' rage ability?

I think this is where many people get it wrong. If you don't have some other source of intel telling you that there are new Alchemy rules in the Archetypes chapter, it is unlikely that you'd think to check there first. <...>

We kind of have though. We had "basic/expert/master spellcasting benefits" for a long time. Combining this with talking about archetypes you could guess there's something here. If you had rules reading practice. Also, yes, page numbers when they are here.

I'm not saying this is an ideal wording though. But when page numbers are in place I don't see much more you could do to make this better. Not completely changing pf2 books typography and standards.

[Baarogue]

I agree partially with both of you. Yes RD, the dedication does lack a page number for Quick Alchemy benefits. I agree that's an oversight that fortunately wasn't repeated in Morning Side Dishes

But even when I included the page number for Quick Alchemy benefits in my reply, you ignored it and quoted the Alchemist class feature in yours. Would a page number in the dedication's entry have helped? And Alchemical Archetype rules aren't new, they've just been altered and codified more like the spellcasting benefits as Errenor said

[Ravingdork]

Baarogue wrote:

But even when I included the page number for Quick Alchemy benefits in my reply, you ignored it and quoted the Alchemist class feature in yours.

To be clear, I didn't ignore it. I overlooked it, and even then it was mere minutes before I realized that I had missed it and self-corrected.

Baarogue wrote:

Would a page number in the dedication's entry have helped?

Perhaps not in my case. Or maybe it would have. Who knows? :P

My goal wasn't really to defend myself anyhow. Rather, I was merely trying to explain how or why others might have missed it as well.