Escape uses your unarmed attack modifier or, alternatively, Athletics or Acrobatics. Does this mean the MAP is lessened by the fist's agile trait? If so, does that only happen if the unarmed attack modifier is used for the check instead of Athletics or Acrobatics?
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My ruling would be, even though you can use your unarmed attack modifier (or as a reminder Acrobatics or Athletics) you are not making an Unarmed Attack. You are making an Escape.
Agile says
The multiple attack penalty you take with this weapon on the second attack on your turn is –4 instead of –5, and –8 instead of –10 on the third and subsequent attacks in the turn.
My ruling is that you aren't making an attack with this weapon, only using its modifier for determining how effective your escape attempt is. In my mind it doesn't make sense for someone with an agile unarmed attack to be better at second and third attempts to escape than the same person using their athletics or acrobatics (if those modifiers were all the same).
In short...no I wouldn't reduce the MAP penalty for using your agile unarmed attack modifier compared to using Athletics or Acrobatics.
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No, it doesn't. You aren't making an unarmed attack: you are making "a check using your unarmed attack modifier". That action doesn't have Agile.
There's nothing in this to imply that you're using a weapon at all, you don't even need a free hand. So there's no reason for weapon traits to carry over to it, and that includes Agile from your Fist.
Wasn't this changed in the Remaster?
Before remaster full MAP applied.
Post remaster doesn't reduced MAP apply?
Wasn't this changed in the Remaster?
I vaguely remember reading something about it. If you can find the exact wording, that would be helpful.
What I remember is that some bit of wording was changed to cause/clarify that using an agile weapon would apply its MAP reduction to skill checks with the Attack trait that use the weapon. Such as a weapon with Agile and Trip being used to make a Trip attack with would only have the -4/-8 MAP penalty.
But as was mentioned earlier, Escape doesn't use weapons. I don't think an Escape weapon trait even exists.
The Multiple Attacks with Athletics sidebar was added in the remaster, but it only talks about Athletics skill actions.
Escape does indeed not use a free hand, but it does use your unarmed attack modifier. I was wondering if the agile multiple attack penalty counted as part of that modifier, seeing as all three potential modifiers need to be written down on my character sheet.
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Escape doesn't benefit from your fist unarmed attack's agile trait because it's not performed with your fist unarmed attack, but since it uses your unarmed attack modifier does that mean it benefits from handwraps?
Yep, just like it can benefit from item bonuses to Athletics/Acrobatics.
The Multiple Attacks with Athletics sidebar was added in the remaster, but it only talks about Athletics skill actions.
Escape does indeed not use a free hand, but it does use your unarmed attack modifier. I was wondering if the agile multiple attack penalty counted as part of that modifier, seeing as all three potential modifiers need to be written down on my character sheet.
No, the modifier is the first number. MAP applies a penalty to it. You're writing down those other numbers as a convenience so they're readily available when making a strike.
No, it doesn't. You aren't making an unarmed attack: you are making "a check using your unarmed attack modifier".
There is an explicit exception in the Escape action allowing you to use an Athletics check instead of your unarmed attack modifier. Escape done with an Athletics check might be Agile.
That action doesn't have Agile.
Neither do any of the other actions. The whole point of the sidebar is to explain why it is still Ok to apply Agile.
There's no reason for weapon traits to carry over to it, and that includes Agile from your Fist.
Yes there is. That Escape Athletics check still has the Attack trait. I am still thinking that the Multiple Attacks with Athletics sidebar should still apply.
you don't even need a free hand
OK hand use is not explicit.
The whole sidebar is Paizo being very interpretative to justify the rule change.
It is perfectly reasonable for a GM to infer that Escape uses a hand. Indeed the opposite is preposterous.
I like to point out that Fist doesn't require a hand anyway. A kick is agile, likewise a headbutt and body slam.
I like to point out that Fist doesn't require a hand anyway. A kick is agile, likewise a headbutt and body slam.
That's a good point. For most characters, there's no way to make an unarmed attack without the agile trait, no matter what part of the body is used.
Escape doesn't benefit from your fist unarmed attack's agile trait because it's not performed with your fist unarmed attack, but since it uses your unarmed attack modifier does that mean it benefits from handwraps?Yep, just like it can benefit from item bonuses to Athletics/Acrobatics.
No, the modifier is the first number. MAP applies a penalty to it. You're writing down those other numbers as a convenience so they're readily available when making a strike.The Multiple Attacks with Athletics sidebar was added in the remaster, but it only talks about Athletics skill actions.
Escape does indeed not use a free hand, but it does use your unarmed attack modifier. I was wondering if the agile multiple attack penalty counted as part of that modifier, seeing as all three potential modifiers need to be written down on my character sheet.
Why would the unarmed attack modifier include bonuses but not penalties? The rules for calculating attack modifiers seem to include both.
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The existence of the Slippery Prey feat leads me to believe that you don't get the MAP reduction to Escape attempts by default. If you did, it would invalidate the feat entirely for no less than the first 14 levels of the game.
The existence of the Slippery Prey feat leads me to believe that you don't get the MAP reduction to Escape attempts by default. If you did, it would invalidate the feat entirely.
True. At the very least, the feat would provide no benefit until you're an expert at one of the skills. If at level 2 you are trained both in one of the two skills and unarmed attacks, than the unarmed attack modifier will be the same if not higher. For the feat to make things better, Escape with unarmed attack modifier must not use agile MAP.
Why would the unarmed attack modifier include bonuses but not penalties? The rules for calculating attack modifiers seem to include both.
I think there is some confusion between what you write down on your character sheet and what you add to your d20 roll when using one of these actions.
The rule cited doesn't define 'unarmed attack modifier' that the Escape action uses. It defines the entirety of what you add to the d20 roll when you make an unarmed attack action (or any other melee or ranged Strike action). It actually doesn't even define how to make skill checks as part of an Attack action combat maneuver.
What you write down on your character sheet is generally your semi-permanent bonuses to your common attacks and combat maneuver checks: Generally your level + attribute bonus + proficiency rating bonus + item bonus of permanent items. No, you don't typically include penalties such as MAP, circumstance penalties, or conditions such as Clumsy unless they are also going to be semi-permanent (such as the Clumsy 1 for a Giant Instinct Barbarian's oversized weapon). Though I often do write down a pre-calculated version of the total bonus for at least the second of the three stages of MAP penalty. You also don't generally include other bonuses such as circumstance bonuses or status bonuses such as the +1 bonus from your Bard ally's Courageous Anthem cantrip.
So the number you write down on your character sheet for your unarmed 'fist' attack is not necessarily your 'unarmed attack modifier' that you are going to use for your Escape attempts.
I know the remastered character sheets have spots to write down the attack modifiers with MAP included.
No, it doesn't. You aren't making an unarmed attack: you are making "a check using your unarmed attack modifier".There is an explicit exception in the Escape action allowing you to use an Athletics check instead of your unarmed attack modifier. Escape done with an Athletics check might be Agile.
Nothing supports that except people taking one section of the rules and applying them to another section, while ignoring the explanation for why it applies to the first section.
Neither do any of the other actions. The whole point of the sidebar is to explain why it is still Ok to apply Agile.
Yeah, and that explanation requires doing the action with something that has Agile on it (a fist or an Agile weapon). Escape doesn't have you using any of those things: it calls explicitly for you to use a modifier. Not the traits of the thing, just the modifier.
Yes there is. That Escape Athletics check still has the Attack trait. I am still thinking that the Multiple Attacks with Athletics sidebar should still apply.
The whole sidebar is Paizo being very interpretative to justify the rule change.
It is perfectly reasonable for a GM to infer that Escape uses a hand. Indeed the opposite is preposterous.
It's not at all preposterous: that's why people are questioning it. It requires reading something into the Escape action that isn't there, since people are taking a modifier and adding traits to Escape that don't come along with it. Unlike the other actions, which require either using a free hand (which has agile) or a weapon with the agile trait (which has agile).
I like to point out that Fist doesn't require a hand anyway. A kick is agile, likewise a headbutt and body slam.
Except that to do the Athletics characters in question, most characters need a free hand, which is effectively a fist. You can't Trip someone with a Headbutt without some special thing that lets you do that.
Speaking of which, why do Shove and Trip require a free hand? These seem like things people can do with their feet, too. I'm thinking of the THIS IS SPARTA scene and someone using a leg to perform a sweeping motion to knock someone over. Are there feats that allow Shoving/Tripping without a free hand?
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The existence of the Slippery Prey feat leads me to believe that you don't get the MAP reduction to Escape attempts by default. If you did, it would invalidate the feat entirely for no less than the first 14 levels of the game.
1. That is from Firebrands, which means it was published before Player Core IIRC, and the new sidebar on athletics. It's entirely possible the author believed the rules were one way before, and then were changed in Player Core.
2. Firebrands is probably most broken book in PF2e. Many options are too strong, or have unintended interactions. One being too weak as a mistake is super plausible. FB feats are the only uncommon feats my GMs actually ban.
Firebrands is an extremely bad data point to use for anything else in the game.
According to this page on AoN, the Firebrands entries received an errata last May, well after PC1 was released. And Slippery Prey is not uncommon.
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According to this page on AoN, the Firebrands entries received an errata last May, well after PC1 was released. And Slippery Prey is not uncommon.
Paizo not fixing many obvious problems ever, is also common.
Speaking of which, why do Shove and Trip require a free hand? These seem like things people can do with their feet, too. I'm thinking of the THIS IS SPARTA scene and someone using a leg to perform a sweeping motion to knock someone over. Are there feats that allow Shoving/Tripping without a free hand?
The answer to "why?" is probably "game reasons". They want having a free hand to be a thing worth doing, and they want weapons with the relevant traits to be useful. So they decided that by default, some things want you to have a free hand to do even if you could reasonably do them another way (like Shove with a shoulder check).
There are. (Improved) Knockdown is an example of one.
Sorry just not accepting your logic here. Escape is clearly allowed to be an athletics check. Which is written in the rules and you are just denying.
Perfectly reasonable for the GM to extend agile here. The only interpretation required by the GM to do that is that the action uses your free hand even though the text doesn't require that. That is very reasonable, a completely natural language reading, and I expect it will be very common.
Escape would be pretty bad if it needed a free hand, though.
Player: "Now that I've successfully escaped the worm, I'll use my last action to put my left hand back on my greatsword."
GM: "Okay. The worm attacks you (crit), grabs you (success) and swallows you whole again (success)."
Player: "*sigh* I take my hand off my greatsword, then I try to escape..."
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If Escape needed a free hand, it would say it needed a free hand; Gortle is trying to add pseudo-rules text that isn't actually there, that's all. You don't need a free hand to stomp on someone's foot while they've got you in a bear hug, you don't need a free hand to try to break free of the ice freezing you in place up to the neck, and you don't need a free hand to try to untie the ropes tying you up with your teeth. (Grabbed, immobilised, and restrained, respectively.) In two of these three situations, you don't even have a free hand to work with, using "free hand" as a standard English expression instead of a mechanical term.
Put simply, it's irrational to expect the action of freeing yourself to require you to have your hands free before you can use it. ;P
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Now, that said, the Multiple Attacks with Athletics section is a bit ambiguous. The section, as written, assumes that [Attack] actions require a free hand, though the [Attack] trait itself doesn't actually require this. The gist of the section is "these actions require a free hand, so you use your fist attack's traits to determine MAP", which can be generalised to "[Attack] actions that require a free hand use Fist's traits for MAP". And importantly, every Athletics [Attack] action which requires a free hand explicitly states this as a requirement, while Escape notably does not.
Overall, upon reading it, I would say that "all Athletics [Attack] actions require a free hand, even if not explicitly stated" is an incorrect reading, if an easy one to make; the sidebar is poorly written, IMO. The biggest point against it is Force Open: Force Open is the only [Attack] action in the Athletics section that doesn't list a free hand requirement, and funnily enough, would not actually function as written if it did require a free hand. (On the grounds that Force Open has a -2 penalty if you're prying and aren't using a crowbar, and a crowbar requires two hands. If "all Athletics [Attack] actions require a free hand", then Force Open cannot ever be used with a crowbar, and thus all attempts to pry an object open would have a -2 item penalty.)
So, to sum it up: Force Open is undeniable evidence that Athletics [Attack] actions only require a free hand if they have an explicit free hand requirement, because you cannot wield a crowbar and have a free hand at the same time, and Force Open wants a crowbar. Therefore, the sidebar cannot be saying that all Athletics [Attack]s require a free hand, or it would be factually incorrect. And thus, the only interpretation is that the sidebar is saying "use the Fist attack's traits if you're using a free hand, use the weapon's traits if you're using a weapon, or ask the GM if you aren't sure (or aren't using either)".
Honestly, the sidebar is just really poorly written in general. Heck, as written, the "Some characters can get unarmed attacks without the agile trait as well." sentence is completely irrelevant, since free hand Athletics [Attack]s specifically use Fist even if you have other unarmed attacks. It needs another pass by the editor, IMO.
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Now, all that said, I would personally rule that Escape is likely intended to apply full MAP, taking Slippery Prey into consideration. Or at least, apply full MAP when using Athletics or Acrobatics; it's telling that the feat doesn't reduce MAP as if agile when using unarmed attack stats, which suggests that the writers assumed "unarmed attack mod Escape" is inherently [Agile] because unarmed attacks default to [Agile]. This, in turn, means that Slippery Prey is basically just a stand-in for weapon traits like [Trip] or [Shove], to let you [Agile]-ify your Escape without needing a free hand in the same way as those traits do. And by extension, my verdict on the matter...
...Is that Escape probably wants to be [Agile] when using your unarmed attack mod, but really needs to be errata'd to clarify this. It's in a weird place where it's [Agile] if you use your attack bonus, but not if you make a skill check. And that just ain't right.
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Gortle is trying to add pseudo-rules text that isn't actually there
I have been explicit that what I was saying was a natural language interpretation.
Which is sadly appropriate in PF2.
You don't need a free hand to stomp on someone's foot while they've got you in a bear hug, you don't need a free hand to try to break free of the ice freezing you in place up to the neck, and you don't need a free hand to try to untie the ropes tying you up with your teeth. (Grabbed, immobilised, and restrained, respectively.) In two of these three situations, you don't even have a free hand to work with, using "free hand" as a standard English expression instead of a mechanical term.
In all 3 of your examples the unarmed attack you are doing would use a PF2 Fist. Yes a bite attack is rolled using the Fist stat block which is agile.
Put simply, it's irrational to expect the action of freeing yourself to require you to have your hands free before you can use it.
This is a point you and others are reading in to what I am saying. That is reasonable on your part, but it is not what I am actually saying, 'use' and 'require' are different.